Help me with medium format!

[navarra]

I have been using a DSLR for quite some time. I'd like to try medium

format to see if I can make something good with it.

 

Fact is: what equipment do I buy? Lenses, camera and film... I know

nothing!

 

I want to:

 

1) Take high resolution portraits or full figure people. See Uwe

Ommer 1000 families or Strand's portraits.

 

2) Shoot mainly in color getting very saturated and contrasted

images. I'd like to try B&W as well... but I cannot print pictures

myself.

 

3) Take the camera with me easily. I can use manual 35mm cameras, I

just have NO IDEA how a medium format camera works. I only know I

want it to be small :)

 

4) I want to produce real reportages. I got ideas and I know what

I'm doing. My dream is to produce some nice reportage and sell it,

publish it or show it in an exposition.

 

I'd also like your thoughts on this: does it make sense for someone

used to digital to go "back" to medium format film? Does it make

sense to try and print your own B&W images from medium format film

hoping to produce something I might actually sell or at least spread

around for others to appreciate me as a photographer? Funny how I'm

not even sure it's possible to print medium format film "in house" :)

 

Ok, I see I made a lot of questions... but I hope you'll find them

all interesting. Thanks for helping me!!

 

Simone

[dean_matsueda]

Hi, Simone,

 

You're going to get *all kinds* of different answers, if previous threads on this subject is

any indication but what would probably help is if you can let us know your budget range.

 

But in terms of going from digi to MF, sure it makes sense! The results you'll get from a

larger negative will be stunning!

[troyammons]

A lot of questions and there are a ton of MF cameras out there.

 

My 2 cents.

 

I prefer the larger formats 6x7 - 6x9. Once you figure out the format you want to shoot that will help narrow the field.

 

Decide if you want a slr or a rangefinder.

 

Of the one you choose go for the sharpest lenses.

 

Of the rangefinders, the Mamiya 7 is the sharpest, but probably not the best for portraits. Most of the best fasion photographers i see shoot either a Pentax 67 or a Mamiya RZ. The Mamiya RZ really belongs on a tripod and is heavy, but it is nice. The Pentax 67 is a tank too, but is more hand holdable. Its like a giant heavy 35mm slr.

 

There are a lot of other MF cameras out there too but those seem to be the main 3. There are Hassy's and such too. Really too many to get into. Probably best to rent cameras, until you find one you like.

 

Check this site.

 

http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/

 

 

3) Take the camera with me easily. I can use manual 35mm cameras, I just have NO IDEA how a medium format camera works. I only know I want it to be small :)

 

Thats the tough part. Any MF slr camera will be big. Probably the smallest MF camera is the Mamiya 6 rangefinder, but the lens line up is limited.

 

4) I want to produce real reportages. I got ideas and I know what I'm doing. My dream is to produce some nice reportage and sell it, publish it or show it in an exposition.

 

I'd also like your thoughts on this: does it make sense for someone used to digital to go "back" to medium format film?

 

Yep, I did. Its just another tool.

 

Does it make sense to try and print your own B&W images from medium format film hoping to produce something I might actually sell or at least spread around for others to appreciate me as a photographer? Funny how I'm not even sure it's possible to print medium format film "in house" :)

 

Sure it is. You just need a MF enlarger or a good scanner and a big printer.

[steve_b3]

Well I used both DSLR and Medium format and I do like the medium format. To answer some, if not all your questions.

 

Film. Medium format cameras take 120 (or in some cases 220) film. Most of the brands, types and speeds that you find for 35mm are also found in 120 format. The loading process is differnet and you get less exposures per roll (but each exposure is far larger than a 35mm frame)

 

What camera to get. Well opinions vary but I like the Twin Lens Reflexes, the advantages being that they are relativley inexpensive, light and easy to work with (biggest disadvantage to some is that they dont generally have interchangable lenses). Be sure to budget in a light meter if you dont have one.

 

Any yes it makes sense to go to medium format. Others will have their own comments and opinions. Listen to everyone and make your own decisions.

[jose_angel]

Simone, in my opinion, 1)& 2)with any medium format camera and film you can obtain high resolution portraits. Usually as more expensive the equipment (Hasselblad, Rollei, Mamiya) more lines per milimeter. But in B&W, a cheap camera shots on a fine grain film developed in a high acutance solution can give sharper prints than others made with super-expensive equipment. If you like the best results with the best slide film, money & resolution are usually united. 3)There are different types of cameras: rangefinders, reflex, folding cameras. They are designed for studio use, hand held or all purpose. Different format sizes; 4,5x6, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9. You must try it by yourself. Weight and size are usually involved. Bigger the film, bigger the camera. Square 6x6 format is my favourite. Mamiya and Hasselblad are my choice. 4)As you know, the camera is only the tool. The good work is result of ideas and professionalism.

 

Today, IMHO, it is not worth to shot film except in medium or large format. Specially if you can process your own prints. It is a very exciting activity who obsess for a lot of us. Even, why not to jump to large format?

[matt_ganley]

Like you I had many questions concerning Medium Format. I was interested in it primarily for aerial work where detail was very important and the larger the negative, the better. I researched many types (SLR, TLR, Rangfinder, field) and settled on what is still probably the best deal deal going on the used market: the Koni-Omega Rapid. I like the rangefinder design--it shoots fast and the interchangeble backs are a blessing when using different film types or when in an airplane cockpit where space is at a premium and speedy film reloads important. The lenses are truly some of the best made for this format--they have high resolution and contrast and sharpness edge to edge. The KO's also have a unique pressure plate that provides a very flat film surface---a problem in some other MF cameras.

 

I use my Koni-Omega Rapid M almost exclusively now. The negatives and transparencies scan well so digital images are easy to produce. And they blow up BIG. The KO is a fully manual camer so it isn't for the faint of heart, and it is heavy (about 4lbs.). Not having batteries is a great advantage when you shoot in cold/wet conditions as I often do.

 

You might also want to look at the Bronica GS-1 (6X7 format), the bronica SQ-a (6X6), and the Graflex XL.

 

Of course you can spend much, much more for a more trendy, recent MF camera, but I would carefully consider some of the proven, older models. Good luck.

 

Matt Ganley

Map-Alaska

www.map-alaska.com

[yosemitephotography]

Simone,

 

I shoot both digital (D70) and Medium Format (Mamiya 6). Since I like to take my equipment wherever I go it needs to be small and simple. There are not many medium format options as simple as the Mamiya 6 (Mamiya 7 system is similar but not as compact and some lenses require a separate viewer). There are only three lenses in the M6 system (50mm, 75mm & 150). I like this because it limits my expenditures :) I recently picked up an M6 system for $675 body $620 50mm and $300 for 150mm lens on ebay. The body is roughly size of a Nikon F5/F6 or D2X. The lenses collapse into the body about two inches. The optics are among the best you can find. Photodo http://www.photodo.com/nav/prodindex.html rates the Mamiya lenses equal to the Zeiss Hasselblads. If you are interested in example someone who has used a Mamiya 6 to produce critically acclaimes work see see Ernest Zarate's site http://www.ezphotos.net/

 

Having said all this studio portrait work would be difficult with this system since the lenses don't focus closer than 1 meter. One solution would be to take portraits from further away with the 50mm and crop. As far as printing medium format you can scan them (I have a service that does it for about $2.50 a slide for example or you can try www.imagerylab.com or www.pearsonimaging.com/) After the image is digital you can print or manipulate as you do your DSLR files.

 

I hope this info helps.

 

Ken Mendoza

 

For more info on the Mamiya 6 see

http://www.kenrockwell.com/mamiya/6.htm

http://www.photo.net/equipment/mamiya/6

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

You'll love medium format.

 

I have a Minolta Autocord that produces 6x6 (2.25 iches square) negatives and has a fixed 75mm lense. I spent $200 on it and another $140 for service. And it produces stunning images. The downside is a single lenses that does not focus really close. But, then again, a normal lense isn't great for tight head shots. But it does produce nice 1/2 body portraits. Also, the waist level finder may feel awkward if you're used to SLR's.

 

You may find it easier to use an SLR, even though they are a little heavier. I also own a Mamiya 645 Pro TL, which is a very nice camera. You could pick one up with a 150mm lense for about $600 at KEH (non-metered finder and no power winder). For tight head shots, use one of the three available extension tubes. The camera is easy to handle and the lenses are very good. Some folks scoff that 645 is too small. I disagree. The negative is 2.7 x the size of 35mm and you can print 16 x 20 without any problems. If you want larger prints, then go to a bigger format.

 

Good luck.

Robert

[sammm]

Simone,

 

I've been doing more and more Medium Format, and have some thoughts. You should spend some time under the "Learn" tab reading some of Philip's articles and on the Medium Format pages someone cited to above.

 

There are many kinds of MF cameras, and with a couple of exceptions they are all MUCH more mechanical and less automated than any 35mm (the exceptions include the Rollei 6008i and maybe a few of the 645s).

 

Format makes a big difference, and the 645 format cameras generally seem most designed to mimic 35mm functionality, but the cameras are much heavier. So you may want to look at the Pentax 645 and Mamiya 645.

 

If you're looking easier to handle, especially without a tripod, you may want to be think about rangefinders like the Mamiya 7 (which I haven't used). I find TLRs pretty easy to handle, and especially natural for portraits, so I'd also recommend trying an Autochord or old Rollei TLR. I don't find the fixed lens as limiting as you might think. I haven't tried the Mamiya TLR that has interchangable lenses.

 

If you want something different that's a nice intro to MF (but without quite as big a negative), try a baby Rollei or Yashica 44, which are TLRs that take 4x4 photos. I'd say these are easiest to handle and lightest, but you do compromise on negative size. They're quite cheap, though the film is hard to find and get developed.

 

For me, at the end of the day, though, the MF I like most are the 6x6s. I have a Kowa, which is probably the least expensive way into the 6x6s. But even the Kowa, a relatively light 6x6, is still pretty big, and while I feel like I've got a decent shot at a reasonably sharp photo as low as 1/30 (and have risked 1/15) with a 35mm, I wouldn't assume I could use the Kowa handheld below 1/60 and would prefer to be at 1/125 or faster (it only goes to 1/500, so it's a pretty limited range). And, I use a pretty heavy tripod on MF - the same tripod I use when I shoot 4x5.

 

It's also worth spending some time window shopping in the photo.net classifieds and on ebay or KEH; there's a lot there. I've gotten my intro mainly through the cheaper old mechanical cameras; I may soon sink some real money into a big Rollei 6x6 system, but that's only after playing around with a wide range of different equipment and figuring out what I really like.

[testera]

I just started shooting Medium format myself and I have to say I love it. I have worked extensively with 35 mm and 4 * 5 large format, medium format is like you have the best of both worlds at your finger tips, high portability with a larger neg.

 

yeah you are going to get everyones' 3 cents (usually its two, but everyone throws in that penny for free). I bought a Bronica ETR amost a month ago. Bronica went out of bussiness back in 2004 from what I have gathered and it seems that alot of folks have been putting them up for sale, the down side (I am finding) is that because they went out of business, it is getting difficult to find some of the accessories (mine came with a prism, but I have been looking for a waist level finder and none of the local camera shops seem to have any used ones around). Many folks really like Mamiya SLR cameras wich are also reasonably priced and very easy to find accessory options. You of course have other options like Twin Lense Reflex cameras which in most cases are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper, but lack the interchangable lenses and the difficulties with parallax.

 

Yes it makes perfect sense to get back to the "roots" as it were and start working with acetate film again. And as for developing in-house (for black & white), its pretty much the same as developing 35 mm. I have an adjustable spool for my devo tank that accomodates 2 rolls of 35 mm or one roll of 120/220.

[wayne_crider4]

1) Take high resolution portraits or full figure people. See Uwe Ommer 1000

families or Strand's portraits.

 

Ans: Forget high resolution portraits. You'll see every imperfection and most

sitters simply don't want that, especially women.

 

2) Shoot mainly in color getting very saturated and contrasted images. I'd like

to try B&W as well... but I cannot print pictures myself.

 

Ans: You could just as easily do this in Photoshop with your D camera.

 

3) Take the camera with me easily. I can use manual 35mm cameras, I just

have NO IDEA how a medium format camera works. I only know I want it to be

small :)

 

Ans: Depending on where you are in Italy, there should be some books or

magazines available covering the MF subject. Also, don't expect the ease of

use when shooting most MF cameras. They are inherently bigger and bulkier

besides slower depending on the camera. In the upper tier of the camera

lines they are also very expensive.

 

4) I want to produce real reportages. I got ideas and I know what I'm doing. My

dream is to produce some nice reportage and sell it, publish it or show it in an

exposition.

 

Reportage (mostly considered photo journalism in the U.S.A.) is the game of

35mm systems. If by reportage you mean covering specific subject matter thru

books, ( a book on this or that subject matter) then a MF system could prove

useful, but definetly not necessary.

 

If you have cash to blow and want to discover the medium, get a cheap 645 or

6x6, a standard lens, a handheld meter and a roll of film. As far as developing

and printing anything goes, leave it to others for now. Btw, how much would it

cost to develop and print a 120 roll of print film in your country? I just want to

know as a potential traveler.

[maylon_roberts]

Help yourself first. No, your questions are not interesting.

You are not helpless. Do your own research. Asking these questions in this forum is not doing your own research. I can tell you haven't done any just from the questions you've asked.

[john_banister1]

I'd recommend getting a used TLR of fairly good quality. The lens is built in. If you can use a manual 35mm camera, you'll be able to make some nice images with it. If you later decide MF isn't for you, then you'll be able to sell it for about the same price you paid for it. There's lots of threads where people with better opinions than I have recommend which models are good to buy. Also, try some slide film. MF slides you shot yourself are a pleasure to look at.

[jose_angel]

Usually, large format users only need&use up to three lenses: wide, normal and moderately long. In the 6x6 format used to be a 50, 80 and 150mm lenses. Generally, lenses outside this range are very expensive. A highly percentage of portraits in this format are made with the 150mm. The 50 is indispensable for interior shots; others like to use only the usually faster (and cheaper) normal 75-80mm lens.

 

In my surroundings the most used camera by wedding and portrait professionals (hand held shooting experts) are the Bronica 4,5x6 and 6x6 (because the price, thought) and Hasselblads CW and ELW? (a lot use the 4,5x6 roll film holder on them). For studio use, the winner is the Mamiya RZ 6x7 and the older RB version. There are tons in the used market. I have seen also some Mamiya 645 versions. Mamiya rangefinders and AF medium format cameras in general are difficult to see.

 

About film, there is a wide offer, I like Fuji Velvia for saturated chromes. Some experts prefer other Kodak films, I?m unaware of this topic. I usually scan them for printing on photographic papers. About B&W, there are even more options, near infinity if combined with different developers. My choice are classic films with high acutance developers. Hope this help,

[aristotelis_grammatikakis]

Simone Maria, I use a Hasselblad 501CM with just a 80mm lens to do exactly what you describe (portraits, reportage, etc). It is lightweight and easy to carry, has the strength to travel with me and the lenses are of the highest quallity.

[navarra]

Thanks everyone for the interesting (well, most of them :) responses.

 

Sorry for not coming back earlier but really I couldn't find the time.

 

All your informations are very useful. I'll check out the cameras and lenses you talked about and try to choose something I like. With a first thought, I find 6x6 film more interesting than other formats since the first thing I notice in a MF print is the "square" size.

 

2 questions:

 

1) On a 6x6, what's the 35mm equivalent of the lenses? I know this might be wrong but I'm used to the 35mm sizes for "wide" "normal" and "tele".

 

2) Some say to scan the film and print it as a digital file. Isn't this going to spoil part of the final result? Won't the prints (expecially the colors) look much similar to those taken with DSLR's?

 

Thank you again, I really appreciated your help!

 

Simone

[raczoliver]

There are some things you have to decide on your own before anyone can really help you:

 

Format: You want the camera to be small and light. I recommend 6x4.5 or 6x6 then, but you must know there are other formats too, and do consider them. I'd say choose the largest format which you do not find too large. Advantages of the relatively small 6x4.5 are that the cameras are more portable, and that you do not waste a lot of film area. I personally prefer the 6x6 square format, because I don't have to think whether a picture should be vertical or horizontal. If I do crop, I crop in the dark room. I can also use a waist level finder with 6x6. Vertical shots with a 6x4.5 camera and waist level finder would be very awkward.

 

Type of camera: SLR, TLR, rangefinder? The advantages and disadvantages are obvious. SLR: You get what you see. This is very important for me. The use of a polarizer is also easier like this. Drawbacks are size and mirror slap. TLR: Especially good for environmental portraits, cheap, no mirror slap. You do not get interchangeable lenses most of the times, and what you see is not exactly what you get. Rangefinder: Small size and light weight, no mirror slap. Prices are high, and you don't always get what you see. Choice of lenses might also be limited.

 

If you decide on these two things, it will be easier to help, but you'll also see much clearer for yourself and might not even need other people's help to make your decision.

 

As for printing at home, it is just as easy as 35mm. Nothing you could not do.

[raczoliver]

Looks like we were typing at the same time, but you posted first. So the format is decided. Actually I agree with you on this.

 

I read a good article on this site about focal lengths with equivalent angle of view on different formats. I think it was written by Bob Atkins, but not sure, and someone else could help you find the article if they know what I am talking about.

[jose_angel]

You can find whatever equivalence between lenses and formats with the following rule:

 

(Fa x lenght b)/lenght a

 

For example: we want to know the equivalent in 35mm format of the 80mm 6x6 lens. 80mm (Focal lenght of the lens) x 36 (36mm is the lenght of the longer side in the 35mm film), all divided by 56 (56mm is the real lenght of the longer side in the 6x6 format) = 51. The 80mm on a 6x6 camera is moreless like a 50mm on a 35mm camera, in the longer side of the format (landscape).

 

You can use this rule for all formats: what about the 35mm equivalent of the 75mm lens in a 4x5" view camera? Answer: 75 x 36 all divided by 120 (120mm is the lenght of the longer size in the 4x5" film format) = 22,5. The 75mm is like a 22,5mm on a 35mm film camera (landscape).

 

Scanning the film (quality high resolution scanning), you can then easily repair some faults, adjust contrast, saturation, luminosity, etc. The goodness of it is that you can "enlarge" this file to the best photographic papers (traditional chemical process). The only difference is the "enlarging step". It is not made with a traditional dichro enlarger but with a super cool laser machine (experts please, help me!) You know it isn`t cheap; results are astounding. You can have the colors you like. Try it.

[dave_cheng1]

"2) Some say to scan the film and print it as a digital file. Isn't this going to spoil part of the final result? Won't the prints (expecially the colors) look much similar to those taken with DSLR's?"

 

No, Absolutely not. CCD's on desktop film scanners have higher dynamic range beyond digital camera CCD's reach. But a MF CCD film scanner costs around $2k. However, you will be happy with a Minolta Dimage Multi, an old generation model for around $500, even it has a resolution capable of only producing a 8x10 300dpi print from a 6x7 film. This may not be a bad setup. You get to scan at low cost yourself for the films you shoot and see them on your computer display. You can always have your film drum scanned whenever you have a few frames that desrve such scans.

[navarra]

Your help has really pushed me on the right track I believe: I'm very inclined thowards a 6x6 waist level camera. I've always been fascinated by those photographers looking in the mirror from above the camera before shooting. I always thought "I could take awesome pictures with that", only I didn't know how "that" was called.

 

I believe a 35mm equivalent is ideal for full figure portraits, so with some minor calculations a 50mm should be fine. Actually, coming from the 35mm format a 50mm lens sounds like the best choice for starting :)

 

For the model, I'm so used to SLR's that it seems natural to go on the same way, but size is probably a priority since what I'd like to do first is a series of street portraits. Thinking about size and bulk, I probably want a camera with built in meter... but the prices on the newer models are insane so maybe I'll have to live without it.

 

I already own a somewhat "old" Epson 2450 scanner. Does anyone use this or had I better think about upgrading?

 

Seems like I only need to go out and get the camera and lens. I'll check out the different models and update you once I decided. Your help was extremely useful, thanks again!

 

Simone

[navarra]

I actually found an interesting offer already on a magazine:

 

Zenza Bronica SQA limited series (?!) + 80mm + pentaprism (do manual cameras come WITHOUT one?!) + 2 magazines for 300?

 

I like that there's all to start shooting right away. I wonder if anyone here is using something similar. For the price consider cameras cost 1,5 times more here in Europe excluding change 250$ = 300? more or less.

 

Simone

[paul_sauer]

Hi,

 

Pentax 645 is well made and inexpensive (in the original used incarnation). It's an SLR with a built in grip that handles a lot like a pudgy 35mm body. Its lenses focus down to 1.5 feet, closer if you ever pop for the macro lens. Dealbreaker on a lot of TLRs is the 1meter minimum focus distance. I hate that.

[jose_angel]

Hey Simone, I don`t know anything about Bronicas... I am a Mamiya 6 user... could be a better idea if you post a new question.

 

I can`t believe the price. Is it correct? If so it`s a real bargain. 300 USD or euros seems very cheap to me for that kit. This kit in the USA (used, excelent condition) never goes under US$700-800. In europe, it must be over the same in euros. Specially with pentaprism... (yes, usually this cameras came with a plain waist level finder).

 

As you know this cameras are workhorses, be sure your unit is in an appropiate condition. Don`t buy (mail order) if it cannot be easily returned or have a reliable guarantee. All used equipment could hide an important failure. Check it carefully.

 

When I told you above about scanners, I was refering professional drum scanners. They are super high resolution machines used on pro labs.

[david_m]

No medium format camera is small, so I'd forget about it if that is a requirement.