Leica is going Chapter 11

[bobatkins]

<em>"It seems to be a law of nature that cheap inferior products produced in quantity, whether by genetics or manufacturing, will overcome and replace expensive, less numerous high quality items.

"</em>

<p>

You mean like Ferraris, Gucci handbags, Cartier jewelery and Rolex watches?

<p> I love the genetics reference too. I presume you're refering to Dawin's little known second law, "survival of the genetically inferior". I wonder just who the genetically inferior are - the "rest of us" perhaps? Anyone not owning a Leica maybe? Anyone living in a 3rd world country? Do tell us...

[jack_thistle]

I hope Leica can come out of this ok. I believe they really suffer from a severe cash flow problem in that they have to many models that aren't selling enough units to mandate the manufacture of them in the first place. I believe the service aspect of their business has been losing cash flow (so many qualified repair techs as opposed to Leica service alone) that this potentially highly profitable aspect of their business has languished for a long time. I wish they could initiate a "Harley Davidson" type of scenario like the one in which the workers became primary shareholders after the Harley/AMC debacle almost drove them out of business. I also believe that as others have mentioned, the strong used market having life breathed into it by used retailers and the auction site, have kept new Leicas out of many shooters hands due to the price/value relationship. That has to have restricted cash flow rather severly in these past 10 years. Just my .02

[el_fang]

<i>"personally, i believe -- as i have aid before -- that leica should have survived, even thrived, the way lots of turntable mfrs did after the digital audio revolution; i.e. by making superexpensive products for a boutique/specialty clientele."</i>

<p>As you said yourself - poppycock. You're just as bad at business and analogy as you are at photography. Leica already makes (made?) "superexpensive products for a boutique/specialty clientele." They're still dead. Why? Because they're like Ferrari making an F55 that runs on coal. The world is using GASOLINE.

[roger_michel]

no, not at all. they spent millions on the R back. they spent a lot of money on the CM. they spent a ton of money on the digilux 1 and 2 and that completely absurd 3MP luxury digital that nobody in the world bought. they have spent an undisclosed amount on the digital M.

 

apart from the money (lots of money for a very small company with tight margins) spent on digital, these forays also fatally blurred the company's mission. they should have positioned themselves as the last bastion of traditional, hard-boiled reportage photography. no digital compromises here. film-users only need apply. this was the strategy or versa-dynamics, sota, JM, morch, koetsu and many other successful phono companies.

 

i still believe that leaic could be reorganized around these themes. floundering around, not sure if they are a digital company or a film purist company has left them, well, nowhere.

 

there are lots of small companies that survive making anachronistic stuff that appeals to a small group of connoisseurs willing to shell out. all of them make fanatic loyalty to their brand of anachronism the cornerstone of their marketing. leica needs to understand this.

[roger_michel]

el fang = the poor man's jay. all of the ignorance with none of the wit. but, like, jay, ZERO photos posted.

[paul t]

"They're still dead. Why? Because they're like Ferrari making an F55 that runs

on coal. The world is using GASOLINE." <p>

You obviously have problems with the English language, and the use of

analogy. <p>

Roger's anology was with turntables. Turntables use vinyl. You remember, the

medium which was supposed to die off with the advent of CD, but which you

cna still buy at thousands of outlets across the world. Hence the small (but

profitable) market for high-end turntables.

[roger_michel]

and, as the friend of several avid ferrarists, i can tell you there is a two year wait list for current models -- 10% deposit in advance!! leica wishes it had ferrari's problems!!

[EricM]

but you don't need to take your vinyl lp anywhere for processing after you have bought it, in order to play it.

[watts]

<i>personally, i believe -- as i have aid before -- that leica should

have survived, even thrived, the way lots of turntable mfrs did

after the digital audio revolution; i.e. by making superexpensive

products for a boutique/specialty clientele</i><br><br>The

problem with this analogy is that Leica have always been

wedded to the 35mm film format. Whereas the high end audio

companies can thrive selling 20 grand speakers to well heeled

customers who are obsessed with wringing out that last bit of

possible audio quality, photo enthusiasts obsessed by quality

tend to bypass Leica and buy into the larger film (or digital)

formats.

[socke]

I speculated over the way Leica may take when we heard about the losses. I still expect them to restructure around high price colectors items with very small production runs.

 

Think Glash�tte or Lange & S�hne watches, Montblanc fountain pens and so on.

Thing realy well made and functional which you buy because you can afford them, not because you need them.

 

For the average photographer a new Leica is something to dream about. Even used ones are out of financial reach for most of them.

 

The biggest local newspaper pays 7 Euro, magazins pay between 20 and 200 Euro per picture. A friend freelances for "Bild Zeitung" and is payed on a assignment basis, he can barely afford his EF-L 16-35 and 35-300.

[deecy]

Nobody's mentioned the one thing that Leica has no peer in: the

design and manufacture of the best camera lenses in the world.

It would be a shame if all that expertise simply disappeared into

history. Yes, maybe the individual Leica designers will be

gobbled up by other lens makers, but it won't be the same, will

it?

Let's all say a silent prayer that somehow, their bacon will be

saved to see a better day.

 

Thomas

[Spearhead]

The problem with the vinyl/film analogy is that it makes no sense.

<p>

Turntables are devices made to <i>reproduce</i> something made elsewhere. They are analogous to slide projectors.<p>

 

If you want an analogy to film, it might be closer to analog recording tape in the studio, which, ever since Digidesign, has seen nothing but declining use. It's still around, but it's getting harder and harder to find a studio using it. And if they do, it's often because they've got lots of equipment and custom installation wrapped around it.<p>

 

None of this really has anything to do with Leica, I'm not commenting on the announcement and all that, it's just for the bad analogy records.

[roger_michel]

(a) i am not sure that, in their heart of hearts, most vinly lovers (myself included) believe that the high end vinyl experience is just about sound. it is about the whole experience of playing records. in the same way, leica cameras are not just about the image, but the whole experience of taking pictures. having said that, there are a huge number of leicaphiles (again, myself included) who believe that leica glass DOES provide a level of consistent excellence not found in other products. so i think the analogy is quite close.

 

(b) however, i asn'ttrying to suggest that the two situations are identical -- obviously. i was trying to point out that digital counter-revolutions have been successfully waged by other companies in hobbies that share many similarities with photography (passion, art-o-centric, equipment-intensive, hihg cost apparatus, etc). i think leica, if itwants to survive, needs to play to its strengths, and that means really embracing silver-halide photography as a religion, just like the phono companies.

 

how do wood-hulled sailiboat makers tout their wares?? faster than fiberglass??

[frank granovski]

I hope they don't move their production back to Canada.

[roger_michel]

jeff -- are you really that thick or are you just trying to give me a hard time?? we are talking about retail strategies, not whether a turntable is exactly like a camera.

 

but i'll play along.

 

cameras are about making visual art; phonographs, to an audiophile, are about making musical art. film cameras and phonographs run on media that has been displaced by allegedly superior and allegedly more robust digital media.

 

i really can't believe that the comparison between the high end film camera world and the high end phonograph world is that difficult to grasp.

[ray .]

El Fang, Roger is a very good photographer in my book.

[summitar]

An explanation regarding my previous comments. I find that animals like tigers, cheetahs, polar bears, mountain gorillas, elephants etc., are esthetically pleasing to me and are in danger of becoming extinct in the wild even in my limited remaining lifetime. On the other hand, things like carp, fleas, rats, cockroaches, ticks and mosquitos will probably outlast humanity. Others may regard all items, species, cultures, creatures as intrinsically equal valued -- I don't. I would like Leica, Ferarri's to survive, but they occupy an ever narrower niche.

[roger_michel]

thanks ray!!

 

but frankly i'm glad to hear a little sassmouth on the leica forum!! it's been getting boring around here.

 

besides, all that matters is that the paying customers like my work. i haven't ever sold a thing to el fang!!

[EricM]

"I hope they don't move their production back to Canada."

 

why not? it saved their arses once before didn't it?

[Spearhead]

Phonographs don't make music, except maybe for scratchers. No musician plays a phonograph. Photographers shoot with cameras. Musicians play instruments. But phonographs don't make music. Cameras are used to make phonographs.

[al_kaplan1]

The trouble seems to be the high end market. Cosina Voigtlander has been no doubt siphoning off customers who otherwise would have been buying older used Leicas, but at the same time they're increasing the user base, and the M mount has become the defacto rangefinder standard, bearing names from Rollei, Zeiss, Voigtlander, Konica, and a few others. Another consideration is the relatively depressed economy over the past few years. If the money starts flowing again it'll be easy enough for folks with a budding M-mount lens collection to upgrade their optics on their existing camera or add a high end body to their kit. It's a painless transition compared to, say, getting out of Minolta SLR's to move "up" to Canon or Nikon while you're still pissed at Minolta for their total lensmount change a few years earlier. I strongly suspect that Leica will come out of this OK, and with an uptick in the overall economy, thrive.

[frank granovski]

I guess it did but who wants to buy junk?

[roger_michel]

jeff -- you may notice that i qualified my statement. to audiophiles, the best hifis make music. you can dispute the techicalities of that statement but, as qualified, it is true.

 

anyway, as i said, we are talking about market strategies, not whether a leica is more like a ferrari, a collings guitar, a sota cosmos, or a leprade saddle.

[Spearhead]

Anyone who thinks a hifi "makes" music is insane. I'm sorry, but it's a reproduction device, just like a slide projector.

[roger_michel]

anyone who thinks a camera makes art is insane; it is just a reproduction device.

 

of course i see your point, jeff. however, audiophiles believe that a good hifi can convey a musical experience just as effectively as a piano sitting right there in the room.

 

anyway, i must remind you again that we are talking about comparative marketing strategies, high end analog sound versus high end analog photography -- in an increasingly digital world.