Nikon 8000/9000: Modifying the FH-869G film holder to avoid newton rings

[jcm_jcm]

Hi,

 

The FH-869G glass film holder (non rotative glass holder for the nikon

8000/9000) is known to be prone to newton rings. This seems to be due

to the glass quality.

 

Some user in this forum have reported that museum/gallery quality

glass (1.5mm-2mm non reflective glass) is a solution to newton rings.

 

I currently don't own such an holder. My question is: would it be

simple to unclip the glass to change it ? Would it be simple/possible

to change the glass by other means ?

 

Many thanks for your answers !

 

J.

[david_littleboy__tokyo__ja]

The holder comes with a set of masks that hold the film off the lower glass. The upper (anti-Newton) glass pushes the film flat. This works best of the film curves upwards, and I find sometimes that I need to load the film with the emulsion side up to persuade it to not bulge down too far. (There are some people who claim that scanning upside down (remember to reverse the image!) loses quality, but I haven't noticed a difference.)

 

The provided masks only mask one frame at a time, so you'll have to cut your own if you want to scan multiple frames at one go.

[jcm_jcm]

Hi David,

 

Thanks for the answer, but I think you are speaking of the rotating film holder (FH-869GR) which comes with masks and has a anti-newton glass above. The FH-869G as far as I know doesn't have an anti-newton glass...

[david_littleboy__tokyo__ja]

Maybe they've chintzed on the masks in recent years, but my non-rotating glass carrier came with masks, and the upper glass does not cause Newton's rings (but the lower one does).

[jcm_jcm]

What about changing the lower glass ? Would it be simple/possible to change the glass or it burried into plastic ?

 

Thanks !

[Ed_Ingold]

Jcm Jcm,

 

The FH-869G holder comes with a set of masks which can be used to eliminate Newton's Rings. Unlike the GR holder, use of the masks is optional. The upper glass has a matte, anti-Newton-Ring treatment, and the lower glass has an anti-reflectance coating.

 

If you load the film emulsion side down as recommended, there are no problems with Newton's Rings on the lower surface, but can occur on the top side. Film tends to curl toward the emulsion side, which exacerbates this problem.

 

I find the masks difficult to use. However, the kit includes a sheet of adhesive strips to be applied to film for difficult cases. I applied one of these strips to the upper glass between frames 1 and 2 (I only scan 6x6). It creates enough separation between the film and glass that I have never seen Newton's Rings on any frame in a strip of three.

[robert_martin5]

I own the FH=869G film holder and I do get newton rings on some

images. The mask supplied with the holder solves the problem on most

images, but not all.

 

The top glass has an anti-newton coating, but the bottom glass is

clear. Glass is attached to the film holder with strip adhesive

along the perimeter of the glass. The strip adhesive is not

continuous, but does include most of the perimeter. The glass is in

a cavity in the film holder and the thickness of the glass plus the

strip adhesive makes the glass surface flush with the plastic film

holder. I think it is possible to remove the glass without breaking

it if you are very careful. The replacement glass needs to be the

same thickness and cut to the same size to fit inside the cavity.

You will need strip adhesive to attach the new glass. I don't know

if you need to replace the top glass, but it is attached the same way

as the bottom glass.

 

I only have 6x6 and 6x4.5 medium format film to scan, so I made a

glassless holder that holds the film like the 35mm strip film holder -

has support on all sides of each image. I made two inserst - one

for 6x6 and another for 6x4.5. I modified the 35mm slide film holder

to accept the inserts. I used this holder because my film is cut in

strips of four 6x6 images and five 6x4.5 images and this holder is

longer to accept the longer film strips. I have to turn the film

around to scan the additional image. Focus measurements I made at 9

locations on each image indicate that film flatness is almost equal

to the glass holder and I never get newton rings. I am scanning a lot

of old negatives (30 years) and I don't have time to rescan due to

newton rings. I consider the glassless holder that came with the

scanner useless.

[jcm_jcm]

Thank you very much for your answers !

 

I have been advised to try to add a glass on the FH-869S holder (no glass) - in fact 2 glass: bottom and top. Some users have reported success in this forum (the modification has been explained too). If this doesn't work I'll buy the FH869G and try to modify it ( Or maybe using the provided adhesiv spacer is just enough :-) )

 

Does someone know if newton rings are due to excess of humidity or lack of humidity ? Maybe a way to cure would be to dry the negs with an air dryer or to humidify the room ? Just asking ...

 

Thanks again !

 

Best regards,

 

J.

[Ed_Ingold]

Newton's Rings are interference patterns caused when two reflective surfaces are in close proximity. The wave nature of light causes alternating light and dark bands where the light is reinforced and cancelled with increasing distance between surfaces. The patterns appear as rings when either of the surfaces has compound curvature (e.g., spherical). They appear colored because white light is composed of many colors, which have different wavelengths, hence different inteference patterns.

 

Humidity has no effect, other than to cause film to curl due to expansion or contraction of the gelatin layer.

[Ed_Ingold]

To be effective, the masks have to go on the convex side of the film, which is usually the back side. The emulsion side goes toward the lower plate. That way, the matte side of the film is adjacent to the shiny (but coated) glass, and the shiny side of the film toward the matte (anti-Newton) glass, minimizing reflectance.

 

Putting anti-Newton glass on the bottom would make for a poor scan. The granular pattern of the glass would be in front of the image, affecting sharpness and possibly be imaged by the scanner.

[david_littleboy__tokyo__ja]

"That way, the matte side of the film is adjacent to the shiny (but coated) glass, and the shiny side of the film toward the matte (anti-Newton) glass, minimizing reflectance."

 

That's Nikon's theory, but the experience here is that it is quite wrong: many (but not all) frames will create lovely Newton's rings (mostly in sky areas) between the lower glass and the emulsion side of the film if you don't use a mask to hold the film off the lower glass.

[jcm_jcm]

Does somebody already use the TETENAL Anti-Newton Spray ? see:

 

http://shutterbug.com/digital_help/0604sb_digitalhelp/

 

It seems to be very affordable (about 6Euros).

 

Available for France here:

http://www.bipphoto.fr/NUMERIQ/F_P_L_TETENAL.HTML

Available for UK here:

http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/pp/Photography_Supplies/Cleaning/Tetenal_Anti-Newton_Ring_Spray.html

 

Regards,

 

J.

[rishij]

I once tried placing a piece of Focal Point Anti-Newton glass on the base side (top) of strip 35mm film in the FH-3 holder with a Nikon LS-4000. The bottom (emulsion) side did not have any glass.

<p>

Therefore, in this setup, there was no AN glass between the film and the CCD, only between the light source and the film. As is the case in the Glass Holders mentioned above.

<p>

However, I still found that this introduced unacceptable texture into the scans, as is evidenced here:

<p>

<img src="http://staff.washington.edu/rjsanyal/FH3_ANglass-Comparison2.jpg" width=800">

<br>

<a href="http://staff.washington.edu/rjsanyal/FH3_ANglass-Comparison2.jpg">Link to Full-Size Image</a>

<p>

How come you guys aren't seeing this with the AN glass on the base side with the glass carrier?

<p>

Could it possibly just be due to the fact that the LS-9000 has an optical diffuser in the light path?

<p>

Cheers,

<br>Rishi

[User_4754088]

<p>Rishi,<br>

I am wondering if what you are seeing is actually the grain of the film. I am trying to build an Anti-Newton glass carrier for an LS9000 to scan 6x6 Medium Format black & white. Some of the examples I have seen with the Anti-Newton glass looked pretty good. But obviously, with the bigger 6x6 negative, the grain would not be as noticeable. With a 35mm neg, especially if it was in very sharp focus, I would think the grain would show up alot more. Maybe it is the grain of the Anti-Newton glass you are recording, but I just thought it might be the grain of the negative that is being scanned.<br>

Best,<br>

-Tim</p>

[rishij]

<p>Hi Tim,</p>

<p>No, it's the AN glass pattern. Take a look at AN glass under the microscope. It's got quite a 3 dimensional pattern of etching.</p>

<p>Most probably this pattern is not evident on a LS-9000 because of its optical diffuser in the light path. The LS-5000 and the LS-4000 accentuate the AN glass pattern so offensively b/c of their collimated light source.</p>

<p>I put a Scanhancer optical diffuser in the light path in my LS-4000... and... guess what?<em> The AN glass pattern disappears in scans!</em></p>

<p>I will post my results in a separate thread on photo.net once I get around to it. One would think I'd just have a blog by now. :)</p>

<p>-Rishi</p>

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

<p>I don't get an AN pattern with my 9000. I've been placing a sheet that I bought from Focal Point atop my film in the standard holder. Seems to work well, but it is a bit thick to close securely. So I may have it ground down a bit.</p>

<p>I'd love to see the glassless carrier that Robert Martin built.</p>

[guillaume_gaud_1]

<p>Hello all,<br />my I ask you, here, if it is possible <strong>to scan a single image of 35mm film (24x36mm)</strong> with the FH-869G (for example : a slide with its plastic mount removed) ?<br />Many thanx in advance.<br />Guillaume</p>

[guillaume_gaud_1]

<p>Hi,<br>

I've just received my Nikon Coolscan 9000 ED from Cameta (USA) today, bought from France on the 29 january 2010. Everything is fine ! I'll buy a FH-869G in the forthcoming days.<br>

Bumping ! ;)<br>

Bye !</p>

[aaron_pepelis]

<p>I get newton rings in EVERY scan that I do with the glass holder. This process is going to be a lot harder than I thought it was going to be.</p>

[ray .]

I had Nikon’s FH-869g glass carrier and never had any issues with newton rings. Just pop the film in and go.

[rconey]

haven't used my 9000 scanner in some years but the occasional Newton's Rings issue was annoying. Especially when I did not notice it until late in post. i cut out spacers to whatever (medium format) film size i needed and that helped a lot, even with the anti-NR glass holder.

[Ed_Ingold]

The lower glass has an anti-reflection coating, but is completely transparent. The upper glass is lightly etched in order to prevent intimate contact with the film. I have the best results placing the emulsion side, which is textured and relatively matte, of the film down. In this climate (Chicago), the film is either dead flat from storage, or cupped upward in the middle. In that case, I place the mask on the upper (shiny) side. Newton's Rings are either extremely faint, or non-existent.