using cinema lenses for macrowork???

[damon_perrott]

I am interested in using cinema lenses (reverse mounted on bellows for 35mm

camera) for macro work 1:1-10:1. I would like to know if there are any

certain lenses that perform better than others for this type of work. Also

regarding format, would it be better to use 8mm, super8, 16mm, or 35mm

lenses??? Are there any less difficult way of reverse mounting them???

[dan_fromm2]

(1) Do not spend any money or ask any more questions until you've bought and absorbed a copy of Lester Lefkowitz' book The Manual of Closeup Photography. Out of print, copies can be found using, e.g. and in alphabetical order, abebooks.com, addall.com, amazon.com, and other book-finding services.

 

(2) What you can do/use depends on how much extension you can get. Lefkowitz gives the the formula for extension given focal length and magnification.

 

(3) There's very little around that's better from 1:1 to 5:1 than a reversed 55/2.8 MicroNikkor AIS at f/4. What's better is vastly more expensive and hard to find. Reverse-mounting this lens is trivially easy, Nikon makes the pieces needed. And they're easily found too.

 

(4) For use above 5:1, there's little that will beat a reversed 25/1.9 Cine Ektar II at f/2.8. Reverse-mounting one requires filter step rings etc., not difficult.

[duane_kucheran]

Fixed focal length enlarging lenses would probably give the best results as they are designed for working at the conjugate distances needed for macro work.

 

I've seen some fine results from reversed C-mount video camera zoom lenses. A whole camera with lens are often available at garage sales for virtually nothing. I suggest that the longer focal lengths will give you a greater working distance.

 

 

One interesting lens is the Schneider Betavaron. This is a zoom lens that was designed as an enlarger lens for 35mm. I understand these things went for many, many hundreds in their day but with the decline of film they're available now for far less. A fellow at work set one up in a jig with a video camera for inspection of small parts. In essence it was a giant sized microscope that gave some amazing results.

 

Cheers,

[alex_lofquist]

I have a 20mm B&H Super Comat f/1.9 scavanged from a 16mm movie camera. After cobbling up a mount, I used it (reversed) on my F4 for geological samples. I works quite well at 3.5XD when stopped down a bit. As to format, low magnifications (~2x) should use a reversed 35mm format lens. Medium magnifications (2-4X) are better with a 16mm format lens. For high mags (>5x) I would select an 8, or super 8 formt lens. Basicly, select the lens that will be photgraphing an area equivalent to the field of the lens when on the movie camera.

[dan_fromm2]

For those of you who haven't shot S8, the vast majority of S8 cameras have fixed lenses, most of them zooms. The most common exceptions are Beaulieus, excepting the 1008 and 1028; the Fuji ZC-1000 (Single8, not Super8); and Leicinas, which use Leica M-mount. All of these were usually delivered with a zoom lens. Practical implication, ain't no fixed focal length lenses for S8 to be had.

 

Alex, please don't remind me of the very short Century lenses, the 5.5/1.8 Fujinon, and the Leicina's 10/1.8 Cinegon. The Century and Fuji lenses are basically mythical beasts, the Cinegon is very expensive even now and hard to find.

 

C-mount flange-to-film distance is 17.53 mm. D-mount, as used on many 8/8 cameras, is 12.29 mm. Practical implication, C-mount lenses offer better working distance than D-mount. H-8RX mount is in between, 15.31 mm and the 36/1.4 MicroSwitar is a superb lens.

 

To say it again, I've shot my 25/1.9 CE II at f/2.8 reversed against two 25/3.5 Luminars. The Ektar is better. I use my 25 Luminar more because its a little easier to use, not because it performs better.

[damon_perrott]

I have a keystone k38 8mm camera with 4 removable lenses. 1/2" 2.3, 13mm 1.4 zeika, 1 1/2" 1.9zeika nominas, 6.5mm 1.9 zeika nominas. will any of these lenses be sufficient for reverse mounting??? so basically from what im told the smaller the lens format, the more suitable to photograpginh smaller subjects...ie 35mm for larger subjects, 8mm for very small subjects????dan i would like to try a reversed 55/2.8 MicroNikkor AIS at f/4. just curious, would the nikon 55mm 3.5 micro lens yield comparable results to the 2.8???? thanks

[dan_fromm2]

Damon,

 

Any of your Nominars will do. But they'll all give you very short working distance. You'll need filter step rings and more filter step rings or tape and a series ?-to-something adapter to reverse them. www.srbfilm.co.uk will make a custom adapter for you, so will www.skgrimes.com. But since you have a 55 MicroNikkor just use it and be happy. There's no point dicking around with anything else until you've learned whether you can work successfully at the magnifications you've mentioned.

 

I've never tried a 55/3.5 MicroNikkor reversed -- my wife has one, I've never commandeered it -- but in discussions on this subject some time ago someone else said he was pleased with the way his 55/3.5 MicroNikkor shot above 1:1 when reversed. You may have to experiment to find the "best" aperture given magnification.

 

IMO the story that lenses for smaller formats are better at high magnification than lenses for larger ones is hogwash. The 55/2.8 MicroNikkor reversed is a world-beater from 1:1 - 1:5. How many times do I have to say it? What lenses for 8/8 are, mainly, is inexpensive EXCEPT for ones in H8RX mount.

 

I was serious when I told you to buy Lefkowitz' book. Get the book and educate yourself and then come back to have anything that confuses you clarified.

[damon_perrott]

dan

i will buy that book right away and read every page. one last question before then. If reverse mounting 8mm cinema lenses is practical enough to use for photomacrography and leicina cameras use leica m mount lenses which are supposed to be great lenses, would reverse mounting a regular leica lens work as well for macro?? I understand that I am looking for a cheap alternative and these are very expensive. p.s. how about using a regular cine ektar (not II that you suggest). these look cheap on ebay.thanks

[dan_fromm2]

Damon, the reason we reverse lenses when shooting above 1:1 is that lenses intended for normal use are designed for "big subject in front, small image on the negative behind." To keep the optimizations when the situation is "small subject, big image on the negative" we reverse the lens.

 

Yes you can reverse nearly any lens and use it close up. Even Leica lenses, which are usually expensive. The reason people use reversed cine camera lenses isn't that they're cheap or that they're good, it is that they are short, so require less extension to get the magnification.

 

If you're patient, you should be able to get a 25/1.9 CE II for < $25 delivered. There is a whole range of Cine Ektars, you want the 25/1.9. I've tried the 25/1.4 CE II and the 15/2.5, both reversed. The 25/1.9 is much better. Never tried a 25 Cooke Ivotal, one would probably be ok too. Better lens than the Super Comat.

 

But read before you buy.

 

Good luck, have fun,

 

Dan

[damon_perrott]

I want to try reverse mounting the lenses from my keystone 8mm camera. they all have small filter threads. stepping up rings seem to come in some small sizes 24,25,25.5,27mm etc....i guess i could use a step/up ring combined with a reverse adapter but im not even sure these old filter threads are standardized with photo threads. Dan, i havent read that book yet but can anyone give me adapter advice????

[dan_fromm2]

Damon, there are several ways to reverse mount small cine lenses.

 

Learn about "Series" filter holders. These slip over the end of a lens, accept a drop-in (unthreaded) filter, and a screw-in retainer. If need be, use darkroom tape to build up the end of your lens and more darkroom tape to hold the Series adapter on. And then a filter step ring will screw into the Series adapter, if you have the right one. The 25/1.9 CE II I've been touting accepts a filter step ring ...

 

Learn about plastic pipe as is used in plumbing. Smaller sizes, e.g., 1/8" iron pipe size, might do for making a bushing ...

 

Learn about photographer's machinists. www.srbfilm.co.uk stocks filter step rings, makes them to order too. www.skgrimes.com also makes threaded bushings to order. They may be too expensive for you.

 

Learn more about cine lenses, don't go through horrible contortions to use what's at hand. Sorry, can't direct you to a source of information on them.

 

I haven't looked in my copy of Lefkowitz to see what he says about to to reverse mount lenses. IIRC, he says nothing. But then, this is a problem that every educated person should be able to solve.

 

For more free information on lenses used to shoot above 1:1, visit http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/microlen.htm

 

A 55 MicroNikkor with reversing attachment (male 52x1 threads on one side, male Nikon F mount on the other) may turn out to be the least expensive way for you.

[damon_perrott]

dan,

you are too good of a source for answers so instead of doing google searches i cant help but just ask you---- I have a 50mm EL-nikkor f/4. i guess thats one of the older EL-nikkors. anways, i understand that the mount is a 39mm leica screw mount which is mostly standard for enlargers. the front of it also has threads. i want to reverse mount this on bellows for macro. any idea what size these threads are?? i have heard of a rodenstock 39mm reverse adapter and something from BORG that steps-up but i am still unclear on how these work. What El-nikkor (or any enlarging lens) would you reccommend for reverse. Are the new EL's better?? How can i go about reverse mounting it w/o skgrimes or making an adapter?? I know,I know, stick to reverse nikkor 55mm 2.8. I dont have one yet-i will have one soon -but this EL is just sitting here.... thanks

[dan_fromm2]

Google, Damon, Google!

 

And while you're searching, look for info on the body cap trick for reverse mounting small lenses on 35 mm cameras.

[dion_m]

Hey, great info on this thread.

 

What amuses me though, about the comment "Google, Damon, Google!" is that most of

the best information found on Google searches leads you straight to the photo.net forums!

 

Cheers

Dion