Hand-Held? RB? Pentax 67?

[doc_w]

I continue with my hounding of this newsgroup in order to make a 6x7

choice. The MAIN thing for me is hand-held. I have tossed other

criteria to the wind. The camera I WANT is a Mamiya 7 but there is

absolutely NO way I can afford it so don't even go there unless you

are willing to give me one (will chop wood and haul water for

cameras). The Fuji GW670 is also crossing my mind but it has a LOT

of limitations. Also, 6x6 is not an option.

 

My main purpose in this post is I really want to hear from anyone who

successfully shoots an RB67 or a Pentax 67 HAND HELD. Can you do it?

Honestly. What are the limitations. Or am I simply dreaming in

technicolor? Should I seek counselling? For the studio, I use my 4x5

with a roll film back - I want a portable MF camera, period.

 

So I want to hear from you sturdy oaks out there who can use these

beasts in the field without a tripod. If they both can be hand-held,

I am leaning toward the Pentax for its metering capablilities. I

like the idea of a "35mm on steroids" because I have never used a

waist level finder.

[andre_noble4]

The RB is not for handheld. End of story.

[gcoates]

I have an RB. There is NO WAY that I could use it handheld. It is very heavy and bulky.

[john_wire]

Check my response in your old thread. Are YOU a sturdy oak? Are you in good physical shape? Can you withstand the peer pressure from the digital crowd? Can you operate a handheld meter?

 

With a handle, the RB with a 90mm is a formidable machine. With long lense it becomes an attention getter, I know. Like, "are you a magazine photographer?" etc.

 

A waist level viewfinder can provide greater stability than an eye level viewfinder. The leaf shutters are silent.

 

You will always be able to sell your RB if it becomes tiring.

 

Tell us more about your aversion to 6x6.

 

Regards.

[john_sparks1]

I regularly use a Bronica GS-1 handheld. I find that it works well that way. I get consistantly usable negatives at 1/60 with a 110mm lens and sometimes get away with 1/30. I can get away with 1/30 better with the 65mm. I have a AE metered prism, I don't think it would be very usable with the waistlevel unless you only make horizontal negatives. I've read many who recommend using the speed grip with the GS-1 for handheld use, but I don't recommend it unless you are using flash. I have a speed grip and took some handheld shots of a resolution chart with and without the grip. I found the shots without the grip consistantly sharper than the speed grip shots. My theory is that the grip acts like a lever and amplifies movements because your hand is further from the center of the lens.

 

Before I bought the Bronica, I borrowed an RB-67. I found it almost impossible to use handheld because the rack and pinion focusing made me have to support the entire weight of the camera with one hand to allow focusing with the other. The RB also weighs a lot more than the Bronica. I have known 2 photographers who regularly used an RB handheld with good results, but I'd choose something else.

 

I have never tried a Pentax 6x7. I do have a friend who used one for many years (he has recently switched to a Mamiya 7). He used it almost exclusively handheld. He only used the 105mm lens and said he tried to keep the shutter speed at 1/125 or above. I have seen lots of his 11x14 and 16x20 prints that were plenty sharp enough from handheld negatives. He did complain about the Pentax being hard to load film, but seemed to like it otherwise.

 

Since the fastest Pentax lens is about a stop faster than the fastest GS-1 lens and the GS-1 seems to be handholdable about a stop slower than the Pentax, I think they are equally usable handheld. The extra depth of field from being stopped down more may be more generally useful.

[jnorman2]

i have used a pentax 67 handheld many many times with no problems - even when using the 75mm shift lens. my daughter uses an RZ67 handheld (with strobes) for portraiture. many studio pros use both these cameras handheld, such as Annie Leibovitz. however, that said, the RZ and RB are quite awkward handheld, IMHO, and i would much prefer to use the pentax for handheld work. and, as usual, both are going to do better on a tripod...

[doc_w]

John (Wire),

 

I just saw your response and have put in the "can hand-hold an RB" column. I wondered why Mamiya made that grip if it wasn't to be hand-held, but I did really want to hear from those who had actually done with it some success.

 

My aversion to 6x6 is simple: I just don't see that way. My brain automatically crops it to a rectangle. Why in the hell Hasselblad and others decided to make a square format when the rest of the art world is rectangular will always be a mystery to me. If I am going to crop everything, I might was well get 6x4.5, which I don't want. The 6x7 is a superior image size, and it is a rectangle. The 6x8 capability on the Mamiya also intrigues me.

 

I WISH I could adapt to 6x6 because it would make life so much easier. I also wish had the money for a Mamiya 7 but I don't - it looks awesome, made for me! But my main photographic interest is large format. I shoot mainly 4x5 but also 5x7 and 8x10. As I said in the other post, the medium format will be for more casual photography and for those times when I am not travelling alone and my companion is unwilling to stand around for an hour per shot.

[photom]

I use an RZ (about the same as RB). Can be handheld easily for a "limited" period of time but need to use: 1) strap; 2) waist level finder and 3) possibly L-grip. Can be used much longer with a monopod which I recommend as a compromise. Because of the rotating back, the monopod becomes very agile - similar to handheld. If your mindset is true portability, as in strolling around for a few hours around town with your RB - can be done but not very practical. I have done it by using a small backpack that I can slip it in and out of. Or course I have to keep a meter handy as well. Portability is the biggest complaint people have of RB/RZ. I recently looked at getting a M7ii but decided to focus on just the RZ (except for weight and size, no med. format camera is as versatile). I kept getting out bid.

[john_wire]

"My theory is that the grip acts like a lever and amplifies movements because your hand is further from the center of the lens"

 

Agreed. My final squeeze is after I transfer some of the camera weight from the handle to the neck strap. The handle for me makes it easier to carry in different positions as opposed to hanging around my neck all the time....... and the flash is mounted there when needed.

 

I would think the Pentax without a handle could become a "pain in the neck". My FTbn with a long lens gets that way after awhile.

[pavelp]

I use RB67 handheld (mostly with 90mm lens) and it's doable. But I also consider C330s to be nice little carry-around camera so don't listen to me.

 

I can give you some tips on how to use "The Beast67" handheld, but you have really try it for yourself to see if it works for you.

 

First of all, get the left hand grip. It improves the stability a lot, even though it adds another pound or so to the mass. I also use C330s handheld and I think RB67 is easier to use handheld because it has better stability.

 

I do not have a prism for RB, so I use WLF (no additional weight).

 

Second very important accesory is a comfortable strap. I use the original 1.75" Mamiya strap (leather on bottom, emboridered canvas on top). You do not want to hold the camera all the time by your hands, so you need a good strap when it hangs from your shoulder and your neck.

 

Good sized beer belly provides excellent support for the camera.

 

RB67 has an excellent mirror dampening system. I used to have Bronica GS-1 and it jumped a little in my my hands everytime I released the mirror. No such thing with Mamiya. You will hear a sound of fine machinery moving in all directions and the rising mirror may trigger a pressure wave, but the camera won't move when the mirror comes to its upper stop.

 

Get a good backpack to carry the camera. Shoulder bags will put too much strain on one side of the body. I bike with this camera in my backpack and while I feel the weight, I have no prblems to have it with me all day long.

 

The limitations that you will get tired fast. Go to gym and build some muscles if you really want to use RB67 handheld on regular basis (I personally think that this camera some extra effort).

 

If you find a way how to use a camera of your choice handheld, do not listen to wimps :-P on the INTERNET that will tell you that it's not possible. Some of us can handheld anything, the rest will support the tripod industry :-)

[pavelp]

<i>My aversion to 6x6 is simple: I just don't see that way. My brain automatically crops it to a rectangle. Why in the hell Hasselblad and others decided to make a square format when the rest of the art world is rectangular will always be a mystery to me.</i><br><br>

 

6x6 allows you to shoot at any W:H ratio without being penalized on shorter side. You just put everything you want into the picture and then crop later to whatever format you want. It's a different way of doing things. It also relieves you from having to flip the camera on side for verticals, which can become a major pain with larger rectangular formats (that's why rotating backsare so popular).

<br><br>

 

I like both 6x6 and 6x7. They both have their own magic.

[john_wire]

Whatever system you decide on, the pieces should be carefully selected to be the most cost effective. If your vacation or Holiday time is near don't rush out and buy just any system.

 

Also, I believe you need to carefully examine your "6x6 not an option" position in light of your present financial situation. An inexpensive 6x6 for occasional shots may broaden your minds view of things (not at all bad sometimes)and can usually be sold later with little or no loss. IMHO.

 

How's that for telling you what to do.

 

Grin. Regards.

[doc_w]

OK, to show that I am not close-minded, I will consider 6x6. Since it is for occasional photography, what the hell - what is life without compromise that leads in new directions? One door closes, another opens. What would be an affordable, hand-held, metered option?

[pavelp]

If you want an affordable, reliable 6x6 SLR with some automation consider Bronica SQai. Very easy to use, AE (with additional prism), TTL flash, great optics and price is really down now.

 

There are other options (Hasselblad or Rollei), but if you plan on buying additional lenses, Bronica is probably your best bet.

[john_wire]

It depends. Now the choices become almost limitless as you see the door opening.

 

My choice was an Iskra 2. I became so enamored, I bought two more in case anything happened to the first I would have organ donors for transplants. I am sick, according to my wife and children!

 

You must go down that path by yourself.

 

Grin. Regards.

[shambrick007]

Sure, 400 ISO, go for it.

[jonathan_brewer1]

I have 3 RB Pro-SD's, everyone of 'em has a multi-angle grip, that's because they're easier to handle whichever way you choose them, I'm a little over 6' and 250, I can manhandle an RB for a short period one-handed.

 

Have I used the RB handheld? Yes, that's with the multi-angle grip, the the 35 deg. prism, and the motorized back, now would I recommend a steady of diet of shooting the RB handheld? No. I do think an RB with a multi-angle grip, prism, and a motorized back on monopod is a great and mobile proposition, but going out in public w/this, be prepared for quite a bit of attention.

 

RB's were not meant to be handheld without a grip, the multi-angle grip lets you adjust your grip, and since the shutter releas is on the grip, you can hold the camera w/your left hand while you cock the shutter with your right, if you've got real small hand, and you're slight of build, the RB is going to 'wear you out'. The shutter is very well damped, also, heavier cameras to me are easier to hold steady.

[dave_moeller]

As I replied in your other thread, yes, you can hand-hold an RB. I do it a lot. Except for macro work, the vast majority of my RB shots are made hand-held, and are very sharp.

 

If you've never used an RB, you don't know how effective the mirror damping is on the camera. About the only problem with hand-holding is the sheer size of the camera; in your last query you indicated that that wouldn't be a problem for you. Goodness knows it's not a problem for me.

 

People will tell you that the RB can't be used hand held. Do no believe them. I do it. I do it a lot. It works. Personal experience trumps rumors and innuendo every time.

 

If you go with 6x6, you'll cropping to close to 6x4.5 proportions unless you plan to print square. If you're planning to crop, you might as well buy a 645 camera. They're smaller, and therefore easier to pack.

 

I own a 6x6 Bronica system and I love it...but I use it when I want to see the world in sqare proportions. If I'm planning to print to standard paper sizes, I grab a 645 if I don't feel like using the RB. (The RB does go through film a lot faster. This is a bad thing in that the costs are higher, but it's a good thing in that the negatives are larger.)

[steve_levine]

Up untill a few years ago, many wedding shooters hauled RB/RZ's. I have handheld a P67 for years without any problems.Of course I have to do "my" thing correctly(use a fast shutter speed, brace myself or lean on something).Hint:I mostly use 400 film. Without bracing my self against something, I limit my handheld speed to 1/250. Using a tree,fence,auto etc, I will handhold to 1/60th,and I never have mirror shake trouble either.

[andre_noble4]

in light of: "I WISH I could adapt to 6x6 because it would make life so much easier"

 

Seriously give a look to the Bronica GS-1 6x7 system. Also, unlike the SQ-Ai, used ones were often welll treated by amatuers.

[troyammons]

Just to add more confusion, I have all three for a short time. The Mamiya 7 is nice, but you are right, way too expensive. The hand hold winner for sure, except its tough to use a polarizer.

 

2nd IMO is the Pentax 67, but why they could not reduce that mirror slap is beyond me. Its a real whacker.

 

3rd is the RB/RZ, mostly due to its heft and its a knob bellows focus, so you cant cup the lens, hold/focus. On the plus side is the rotating back, top viewer, and an extremely smooth mirror. It is super smooth.

 

What we really need is a lightweight Pentax 67, with a RZ type mirror mechanism, rotating back and leaf shutters, about the size of a Mamiya 7. Not physically possible, but it sure would be nice. When I recieved my M7 80mm lens i thought I recieved a 35mm slr lens by mistake. Its tiny, but it sure is expensive.

[mag_miksch]

Pentax lenses are much more expensive, bodies also.

[tom wallace]

A Pentax 67 is quite easy for me to use hand held, and I have small hands. Since the Pentax has been in production for decades, used bodies and lenses are readily available at reasonable prices. I believe that the Pentax is the lightest 6x7 SLR available, followed by the Bronica GS-1; the RB is *much* heavier than either.

 

If you live near a large city, it's likely there's a camera store where you can rent an RB and a Pentax for a few days. I did this with the Pentax and the Mamiya 7 before deciding which one to buy. (I chose the Mamiya, but the Pentax was not far behind.) You'll also feel better about what you buy having tried it yourself.

[david_holland1]

To return to the top and the specific questions asked (can you do it?, what are the limitations?

 

I certainly can, and have, with motor and waist level but no grip or strap. At originally 5'8" (afraid at this stage of life to re-measure) and 150 lbs., I have no trouble shooting several rolls if I use 400 film and keep the shutter speed up.

 

In my opinion, the limitations are lugging it around (the one time I suggested taking mine on a serious hike/photo shoot, the humans out and out refused to carry it and even the burro balked), a lengthy, continuous shoot (with plenty of time to set up a tripod anyway), and really fine detail coupled with large scale enlargement (realisitically a tripod requirment with any camera).

 

I don't mean to suggest that a grip or strap wouldn't be better--mine gets used on a tripod almost all of the time so I haven't experimented to determine the best way to hand hold it.

 

The real questions are how many rolls would you shoot at a time and how much walking around do you plan to do. There is no question that, although its mass remains constant, its weight seems to increase exponentially the longer your muscles and skeleton have to support it.

[terry_stedman]

Don't believe the people who say you can't hand hold the RB67. I do it a lot. It's obviously made to be used on a tripod, but it's definately handholdable. In fact, I find it much easier to hold without the left hand grip - I find the camera too heavy to hold from the side with my left hand. I grip the bottom of the camera with my right hand, and focus and operate the lens controls and focusing with my left, and fire the shutter with my right index finger, which goes right over the release. Its then easy to cock the shutter again with my right thumb, and advance the film with the same (shifting the weight in my hand to stretch out for it). With a strap to help with the weight and to help lug it around, it's really quite easy, though heavy. However, I've gone shooting for hours in the Florida heat, and its no more irritating than a heavy 35mm system.

<p>

I don't think the RB67 is a good camera for what you want to use it for, but don't believe people when they say you can't hold it. I did <a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/3268219">this image</a> hand held, and thats with the camera pointed straight down. It might have been easier to do with a tripod, but as you can see, it worked quite well handheld. (if you think the image is a little fuzzy, it's because I forgot to sharpen it after shrinking the image size. At full size the catfish is tack sharp)