Mamiya RZ / RB or Bronica GS-1 for landscape work (Good or bad idea)??

[steve_gabbett]

Sorry guys but I need your advice again!

 

I've trying to settle on a satisfactory landscape kit for the past year

or more but keep running in to dead ends. I'm looking for a 6x7

(or 6x9) kit that I can backpack with that has the ability to mount a

wide lens with a fantastic resolution.

 

So far I've bought and used a Mamiya Universal with 50mm lens

and I've just bought a 2x3 Century Graflex that I intended to

mount a 47mm Super Angulon (f5.6). Both of these cameras

have come from (that auction site) and all have had to be

returned or sold on because of problems associated with their

advancing years.

 

My recent train of thought has been to get a cube style SLR MF

camera instead - with particular interest in the Mamiya RZ (or

RB) and the Bronica GS-1. The main reason being that these

cameras are not as old, so shouldn't have as many problems -

plus lenses and accessories seem to be more readily available.

 

My ultimate consideration is the quality (sharpness / resolution)

of the final image and wondered how wide-angle lenses from

these systems compared to the 47mm SA (and each other for

that matter). I've heard bad thing about the Mamiya RZ /

RB50mm lens - are they deserving of this reputation.

 

Sorry for the long and rambling question but I want to make that

the next camera I buy is a 'keeper'. I'm spending far too long

looking at cameras and not enough time out and about using

them.

 

As usual, I thank you all in advance for your responses!

[shambrick007]

Mamiya RZ/RB50 with the mm lens.

[mag_miksch]

this is a question similar to Canon vs Nikon or analog vs digital^^ just a little more complicated as some dudes will come with Petax. I am from the RB gang, so I vote for this, but: MF gear is alltogether of high quality, so you cannot go wrong, all have their merrits. RB plus are: its 6X8 with proper back, it has the revolving back, its very sturdy, needs no accus and, on ebay you find the most and its the cheapest, also the lenses. Cons: its a littler more heavy and if you dont buy a motor back, you need two moves of your thumb to cock the shutter and to wind the film.^^

[johnmarkpainter]

You should look at the Pentax 67 with mirror lockup.

 

The 45mm and 55mm lenses are exceptionally good. The system isn't light but more

manageable than an RZ or RB.

[johnmarkpainter]

Steve,

 

Have you looked into the Rollei SL66? That actually has some very unique features to

offer.

 

It has Front standard movements. Lenses can be reverse mounted for Extreme Macro.

The body has Bellows built in to it so all lenses can be used for Macro.

 

I have a good 'user' system that I am selling for a friend. I just haven't gotten around to

photographing it yet to put it up on eBay.

 

The 40mm lens for SL66 isn't a super cheap lens, but that one is also in his kit. It is an

excellent lens though.

 

The above mentioned Pentax 67 is a cheaper route if you don't want the Movements and

Bellows and you also get a larger Neg with the Pentax (SL66 is 6x6).

 

jmp

[mag_miksch]

I dont sell my RB^^

[dave_moeller]

The original Mamiya 50mm non-C lens took some lumps, and deservedly so in many cases. The C lenses are more consistent, and are better lenses in general. The new K/L lenses are absolutely stunning, although they carry a price tag to match.

 

(As I stated recently in another thread...) If you go with a 6x6 system and you don't print square, you're going to be wasting a lot of negative. You might as well go with a 6x4.5 system, as you'll be printing about the same amount of film on standard paper sizes. That's one of the best things about 6x7: The real image size on the film is very close to the proportions of standard paper, so you don't crop away a lot of your image when you print.

 

The RB67 is a fantastic camera, and it doesn't rely on electronics like the RZ does. This is good in that it's likely to be useful to you for a much longer time (given that, at some point the RZ electronics will no longer be available for repairs whereas the repairs on the RB are all mechanical), but it's bad in that there's no automation with the RB. You have to use a light meter (either hand-held or in a prism) and you have to set the aperture and shutter speed yourself. Only you can decide if the tradeoff is worth it.

 

The Pentax 67 is a fine camera, but you should make sure you'll be able to afford the system you want before you leap into it. Used lenses for the Pentax are both less common and more expensive than RB lenses. (Check KEH for availability and prices.)

 

The only downside to the RB is the size. I highly recommend that you find one that you can hold in your hands to see if that will be a problem for you (both in holding the camera and in hauling the camera.) Personally I have no trouble whatsoever hiking with an RB system or with using it handheld, but others do. You should find out if you can put up with the size and weight. If you can, then the RB is probably a great system for you. If you can't...you might want to look into a 6x4.5 system instead. There are no small, light 6x7 cameras.

[mag_miksch]

The original Mamiya 50mm non-C lens took some lumps, and deservedly so in many cases. The C lenses are more consistent, and are better lenses in general. The new K/L lenses..........

 

BTW: There is no 50 mm K/L lens

[troyammons]

The optical design of the RB and RZ MC lenses are the same from what i understand. The RZ is electronic and the RB is manual. i actually prefer the RB pro-s.

 

The sharpest MF camera I have used is A Mamiya 7, with the Pentax 67 and Mamiya RB/RZ in close second. The 6x6 deal of the century is a kowa Super 66. I bought mine with a 85mm lens for $140.

 

If you are serious about LS photography go straight to 4x5.

 

On my Pbase site I compared the M7 to my Sinar. Here is a 1/8" x 3/16" film crop from my sinar. Following is a Mamiya 7 crop.

 

http://www.pbase.com/tammons/image/41409519

[jonsjons]

don't have either rb or gs-1 yet, but have seriously considered both to take hiking at least once in a while. a standard gs-1 kit will be about 2 lbs lighter than an rb outfit; seems like a big difference to me, but of course the call is yours.

[rowland_mowrey]

I've hiked with a Graflex, an RB and an ETRSi. If you want the picture, you will hike with whatever you need and take the lumps that go with it.

 

The Graflex is a real pain though because you have to cart the holders and you have to change them as you go. I never have enough holders when I'm 'out there'. I've used the RB and ETRSi about the same amount, and find that I end up carrying with me as much as my poor back will bear. In the case of the Bronica, the 500 mm lens is a real pain, but I have gotten some spectacular shots.

 

Have fun. I'm sure either one would work. The Bronica lenses are as good as the Mamiya lenses IMHO.

 

Ron Mowrey

[johnmarkpainter]

<<The Pentax 67 is a fine camera, but you should make sure you'll be able to afford the

system you want before you leap into it. Used lenses for the Pentax are both less common

and more expensive than RB lenses. (Check KEH for availability and prices.)>>

 

It has been cheap for me compared to Hasselblad!

 

...my non Mirror Lockup body, non-metered prism and 105 2.5 lens were only $225 in

user condition (clean glass). THe 45 and 55 can be had for $300-$400 each and the 200 I

have was only $150 (user barrell with clean glass).

[pavelp]

I used to have GS-1 and now I have RB67. Bronica is a very fine piece of electronics, Mamiya on the other hand is a very fine piece of heavy machinery.

 

One of the biggest advantages of the GS-1 is it's electronic shutter. It is very precise and it has great range (16s to 1/500s). With the AE prism, it can do halfsteps (in AE mode only). The user interface is very clear with complete set of safety interlocks. Shutter release is electronic and the button on the hand grip rides very easily. However, close focus is not exactly close (0.76m on 100mm lens) and the absence of rotating back is annoying (you need prism for verticals and prism is much dimmer than the WLF).

 

Mamiya's heavier than Bronica but even though there's at least 1.5lbs of difference, I could not tell (I think both cameras are so heavy, that it just does not matter anymore). There are three features on RB67 that are absolutely sweet: 1) perfect mirror dampening, 2) rotating back and 3) belows focusing (1:2 macro with 90mm lens without extension tubes!) RB/RZ are very universal cameras.

 

I do not think you can make the decision between RB/RZ and GS-1 without trying them to see what will work better for you. I thought Bronica will fit my needs but the lack of close focus and the absence of rotating back grew from minor annoyances to something I was not willing to put up with anymore. YMMV.

[abrepsom1]

I have done landscape photography with a Mamiya RB for a certain time, with lenses ranging from 50 mm to 250 mm. I liked it very much, but what I always missed were the movements of a field or view camera.

So I sold the Mamiya kit and got a Horseman VH with 6x9 backs.

Although several photographers use very wide angle lenses on it, I don't go wider than 65 mm in order to keep some bellow movement.

The VH is not heavier or bulkier than the RB67, and the lenses are a lot smaller and lighter. There is nothing to say about these extremely fine LF lenses you can get from those 2 german firms ... Delicious!

 

I don't regret having switched to a field camera, even if the setup is slower ... or maybe just because it is slower!

 

Good luck!

[jeffrey_steinberg]

If you are going to be hiking and want 6x7, get the Mamiya M7II with 50mm lens. Its an amazing lens and since there is no mirror you get very quiet, shake-free operation. Its a ligh weight, wonderful lens/camera combination especially with Velvia 100.

 

--Jeffrey Steinberg

[steve_gabbett]

First of all, thanks to everyone who's responded so far...

 

You all make valid points for a variety of camera. However, my

primary concern, from whichever camera I decide apon, is the

quality of the final product. Which means an absolute stellar

wide angle lens (ideally 50mm for 6x7) - I like to print my shots

big!

 

Next the camera has to be 6x7 (or even 6x9) so that I can

squeeze every last detail out of my enlarger. I already have an

ETRSi and 6x6 only gains me more choice in cropping. Which

unfortunately mean that the Rollei SL66 and the Kowa are out of

the running (although the Rollei is probably too expensive for me

anyway).

 

I've also come to really appreciate having roll film holders so that

I can swap between colour and B&W mid roll (and do Polaroids

too for that matter). So the Mamiya 7 and Pentax 67 are out of the

running (despite the Mamiya's sharpness reputation).

 

My final requirement is that the system must not be too old or

obscure. I've already wasted good money on several cameras

(both from E*bay and reputable dealers) that have had to be sold

on due to reliability problems or damage due to old age. I would

like a system that I don't have to scour the earth when I find

myself needing a new lens. Having said that price is also an

issue so don't go mad.

 

I've also discounted a couple of of other cameras for completely

different reasons. Someone mentioned 4x5 - which I would love

to go this way eventually (90mm lenses are fairly easy to come

by). I might do in time but my enlarger isn't large enough and I

can't afford (or have room for) a new one at this time. The other

suggestion was for a Horseman VH which I believe (and I could

be wrong here) will only go as wide as 65mm and I'd like to go

wider. It was for this reason that I found myself with a 2x3

Century Graphic because it can focus a 47mm SA without much

fuss. Most 6x9 (2x3) cameras struggle with this and those that

don't are usually far too expensive (Arca Swiss 'F', Linhof

Technicardan, etc).

 

Well there you go that's what I'm looking for out of my next

purchase. All other considerations (including weight to a point)

are secondary. Which has led me to start looking at the 6x7

Cuboid SLR's I mentioned.

 

My main concern with these however is their wide (50mm)

lenses and their performance. If I do end up with a heavy camera

I won't to make sure that the results are worth the chiropractor's

bills. I've set myself the 47mm SA as a benchmark and

wondered how these lenses would match up? And how they

match up to each other? The RZ is a sexier looking camera and

the rotating back would be a godsend when the light is changing

fast but I suspect that the GS-1 might me sharper (without

digging deep for the Mamiya ULD 'M' 50m lens).

 

I've not 100% made my mind up that this is the correct route to

follow so it's up to you guys to talk me around if I'm about to

make a big mistake. I look forward to hearing from you all soon

and sorry this post is a little on the long side!

[dave_moeller]

6x7, interchangeable backs, somewhat modern...your choices are limited. Pretty much the Mamiya RB/RZ and the Bronica GS. (You could consider the Fuji 680 if 6x8 is acceptable, but the price of the lenses will probably cause you to think twice.)

 

Both the Bonica and the Mamiya are good systems. Both have good wide-angle lenses. I've handled both, and found both to be solid systems. Both are fairly complete systems, and you can probably accomplish everything you want with either of them.

 

The Bronica is lighter, but is not really light. No 6x7 camera can be described as light. (My Mamiya RB67 with three lense weighs more than my 4x5 field camera with 3 lenses, and 2 of those are pretty large lenses.)

 

Mamiya sold a lot more cameras (and is still selling them), so there's a lot more equipment available on the used market.

 

Prices on the systems are comparable these days. It's doubtful that price would be a consideration between the two of them.

 

The Mamiya 50mm "C" lens is a fine lens. I've heard that the Bronica 50mm is a very good performer as well. Both systems also have a 65mm lens available.

 

The Mamiya bodies come with bellows, so every lens is, in effect, a macro lens. (This adds to the weight of the bodies, and is the primary reason the Mamiyas are heavier.)

 

Film flatness on both the Bronica and the Mamiya should exceed that of the Century Graphic, so you'll be better able to take advantage of the quality of the lenses on the cameras. The 50mm lenses used on these cameras should perform at least as well as the 47mm SA on the Century Graphic, if not better. (Even though the lever-wind backs solved a lot of the problems with the film flatness on the Century, my experience is that the modern 6x7 backs hold the film flatter still.)

 

My suggestion is to take a look around the web to see what you can find in Mamiya and Bronica cameras and lenses...look at the availability of bodies, lenses, and accessories. Assuming you can't find the cameras locally to try them out, you'll be taking a bit of a leap of faith...but I think either of these systems will justify the investment you'll have to make. You can always buy from KEH and take advantage of their 14 day guarantee if you find you don't like the camera. All you'll be out is the cost of shipping. Midwest Photo Exchange is also very good about taking back equipment; you might consider writing to Jim and asking for his advice.

 

You've been asking about these systems for a while. I fear that you're going past the point of diminishing returns on the information you're gathering. Unless you can get your hands on something locally to try out, I'd seriously suggest that you go ahead and buy a starter system from one of the retailers I mentioned above. All you're risking is the cost of shipping...and my guess is that whichever system you try will make you very happy. (I purchased my RB67 without ever having shot with one. I'd had the opportunity to "fondle" both the RB and the Bronica, but didn't actually get to use either of them.) I can tell you in all honesty that buying the RB was the best decision I ever made on medium format equipment. If it wasn't for my 4x5 and 8x10 cameras, I'd probably shoot the RB exclusively. As it is, the RB still gets about 50% of my shots for me. The Broncia would have probably made me just as happy...at the time I was buying the Mamiyas were cheaper and the equipment I wanted was more available. Today that might not be so true. Look around, find the system that you want, and buy it. You're risking the cost of shipping. A starter system should run well under $500. It's not that big of a risk.

 

(And, just to make things a little more interesting: prices on some of this equipment has actually started to rise a bit. If you wait too long, it's conceivable that you'll end up spending more money due to highter prices. Advanced amateurs are discovering the qualities of MF equipment these days, so it's possible that the bottom has been reached on prices and the only place they're going is up. I paid $331 for a KEH bargain-condition RB67 Pro-S, waist-level finder, 120 back, and 90mm C lens. The same rig today costs around $400. I got a 140mm macro for $150 last year...try to match that this year. You get the idea.)

 

Best of luck to you...but if you seriously want a modern 6x7 camera with interchangeable backs, now is the time to buy.

 

(See...you're not the only one who can ramble!)

[steve_gabbett]

Dave,

Thanks for your reply - spot on - really appreciated! Nice to meat

someone who also enjoys a good ramble!

 

Although I think that you're right the diminishing returns on the

information I've been gathering. I've been treading a lonely furrow

for a while now!

 

In theory the Mamiya Universal and 50mm should have been the

perfect gear for me - excellent lens - ease of use - hyperfocal

focusing - Graflok back (it handled really well in the field). But I've

bought 2 50mm lens and both of them turned out to be dogs

(one was from a reputable dealer)!

 

I take your point about the newer film backs for the GS-1 and RZ

although I've already managed to get my hands on a couple of

good Horseman 6x7 backs which should do the trick nicely.

 

I have one last question for you (sorry) about the 50mm optics.

I've done a lot of reading round and I can find very few people

who have good things to say about the Mamiya 50mm lens,

particularly the non 'C' lenses. The ULD 50mm does get some

rave reviews but it's going to be too expensive for my pockets. I

just want to make sure that hauling the RZ up and down

mountains will be justified by the quality of the (mainly) 50mm

lens. How would you rate them? Are the 'C' or 'ULD' lenses worth

the money?

 

I've also heard that there has been a few problems with the

lubricant used in the floating element breaking down over time

and contaminating the elements which is worrying me a little.

 

As you can see I'm still very confused but starting to lean towards

an RZ for the following reasons:

 

> Easy to use in the field (rotating film back would be very useful)

 

> Easy to hyperfocal focus

 

> Lens and parts Easy to come by

 

> Because it's still an SLR style camera it will mean that over

time I could sell my ETRSi gear and recoup some money

(although it will probably all go back on camera equipment).

 

The only negative I can see are:

 

> Heavy (although I'll only need a couple of lenses out and

about)

 

> No movements

 

Thanks again!

[dave_moeller]

I can only comment from direct experience on the Mamiya 50mm "C" lens. For me it's been a fantastic optic. I've not experienced lubricant problems and hadn't read about this problem, but I haven't speciically gone searching for informaiton on this lens. All I wanted was the widest non-fisheye lens for my RB, and this one fit the bill.

 

I have heard plenty of complaints about the non-"C" lens; this is one lens where the coating really seems to make a difference. The other complaints I'd read generally came from people who either didn't know about the floating element or didn't know how to use it properly. I've read a number of "Aha!" type threads on the web, in which the light bulb seems to go one once the lens is explained and then the comments about the bad quality of the lens cease. (You'll occasionally see the same stuff about the 140 macro, but not as often as it's not as common.)

 

Movements are the one thing I miss with my RB (heck, just a bit of front tilt would have been wonderful!), but I just use my 4x5 kit when I want those.

 

Hope I've been of some help...

 

Be well.

[mark_schafer1]

I really depends how far you will carry your kit. I shoot with a Mamiya RZ as my main

camera (studio and location) and love it (After testing lenses prior to purchase, the quality

used to be very inconsistant, but i just got two new lenses and they are flawless), but even

if I slim down my kit to a body, prism, 2 film backs, a pola back and two lenses (which fits

in the large Tenba Hip bag) i wouldn't want to carry it for an extended period. For those

outings I?m quite happy with my Mamiya 6 (got mine 12 years ago, traveled extensively

and just had a repair this year), therefore would recommend a Mamiya 7 for even larger

film. But besides that I do use more and more frequently my Silvestri 6x9 shift camera

(T30 with 47mm and 65mm), it works with large format lenses (Schneider+Rodenstock)

and very light, is easy to handhold and is complete manual.

So for versatility (and great used prices right now) my vote goes to RZ (if you stay with

your car), otherwise Mamiya 6/7 if you can find a good deal (M6 gets more and more

expensive these days) or a shift camera like the Silvestri for their good, but pricy optics,

simple but versatile construction and weight.

But even Pentax 67 could be a great idea if you're used shooting SLR 35mm and don't

need Polaroids or a second body with different film (or for that matter shoot 220 film/

spooling can be a problem), the used market is going down, lenses are great, very durable

but needs batteries for shutter (as do the Mamiyas).

[tim_drake]

With the exception of being vintage, how about the Koni Omega Rapid M or Rapid 200? It has mid roll removable backs, 6x7, tripod mounts on two sides that with quick release plates allow for quick vertical to horizontal changes, and a remarkable 58mm wide angle lens. At 5LBS and no bellows it is very stable in the wind. No electronics to worry about on those three hour new moon photos. I can put 64T in a back for night shots and not finish the roll and then switch to Velvia 50 in the morning. I companioned this camera with a Fuji GA645ZI and a tripod in a backpack last weekend for 120 miles on a Trials bike. Just a something more to concider. Best Regards, Tim