Hand held 4x5

[terry_stedman]

Hey all,

 

Suppose I'm a street shooter currently using a Mamiya TLR. Further

suppose than I want to start shooting bigger negs, and also explore

(seperately from street shooting and with a tripod) camera movements.

Is there an ideal 45 camera for this kind of thing, or should I

invest my money into expanding my TLR system?

 

I've looked at graflex's and so on on ebay, and I figure my price

range for a whole working system (film holders, lenses, etc.) tops out

at about 500 bucks. I'm kind of sketched out by graflexes, it seems

they're liable to have broken or misaligned or whatever rangefinders.

Is it really possible to street shoot (like, four or five seconds to

compose, focus, and shoot) using a hand held 45, especially if the

rangefinder may or may not work right?

 

If there is a 45 that works well handholding and street shootin', does

it also have at least marginal camera movements? I don't necessarily

need complete flexibility, because for a while I would have no idea

what I'm doing, but enough for me to learn what they do and consider

moving up to a more flexible camera.

 

Any advice would be most helpful

[adrian_seward]

The graflexes really are good for handheld. Don't forget who primarily used these

cameras-- newspaper photographers. They do have limited movements though. There

are some cameras like the Meridian that combine both, but they're hard to find. I would

say start with a crown graphic and later on you can find a camera with good movements.

Once you have yourself all set up to do large format it will be easy and cheap enough to

pick up a monorail camera. You could even save some money by using the same lens on

both cameras. Actually, the main problem you'll run into if you want to use a lot of

movements is that you'll need a lens with good coverage, which means more modern and

more expensive. I know that some people have a lot of tricks for getting the most of the

movements on the graflex, but I gave up and got an old calumet, When I need movements

I use the calumet, When I want to handhold or need portability I use the graflex.

 

Anyway, I can definitely shoot in five seconds with my crown graphic. You need to be

prepared by metering ahead of time (or just making your best guess) and setting your

shutter speed and aperture. cock the shutter. put your film holder in and put the dark

slide in the handy little clip on the back of the camera.

 

Now you have two choices. Pre-focus using the distance scale and snap the picture when

the distance is right, or focus using the rangefinder, then compose using the viewfinder

and shoot. With some practice you could learn what part of the frame the rangefinder

sees. Then you could have a good idea what would be in the frame by looking through

the rangefinder and you wouldn't have to move your eye to the viewfinder. That might

work for moving subjects. Maybe I'll have to try it.

 

Otherwise, if your subject is moving you'll need to do the prefocus. If not, use the

rangefinder. They are very accurate and useful when in good shape. As far as the

rangefinder, there are two common problems. One is that the beam-slpitting mirror loses

its coating. These can be replaced very cheaply. The other common problem is that the

rangefinder is adjusted for a lens other than the one that's actually on the camera. That's

not a big deal. Just takes a little patience to re-adjust. Also, If you don't set the lens on th

infinity stops or if they are in the wrong place the rangefinder won't be accurate. It's easy

enough to set the infinity stops, but if someone doesn't know about that, they may think

the rangefinder is broken when it's fine.

 

Of course, whan all is said and done, you only get one shot. It takes some time to flip over

the film holder. And that will probably do a lot for your photos.

 

One thing is that you may get fewer shots of people without their knowing. On the one

hand, they won't know whether you took a shot or not. On the other hand, this thing is

big and conspicuous, and people love to talk about it.

[david_f._stein]

Wonderful answer. I would add that the Crown saves the weight of a focal plane shutter and you will probably be snapshooting with the leaf shutter of the lens at 1/30 - 1/250. By the same token, I have used these cameras on tripod and the focal plane shutter of a Speed or Anniversary Graphic didn't work well for me. Too hard to trip the shutter and keep everything stable or do multiple exposures. While heavier, the Busch Pressman with the top-mounted rangefinder is also superb for what you intend. It is a solid, high-quality non-focal plane shutter camera and has a bit more movements than a Crown Graphic. It's only real drawback is the small size of the lensboard. You can do a lot with a 135mm Optar lens. GODO LUCK.

[johnmarkpainter]

Terry,

 

The best way to get a working Graphic is to pay about $500 at:

 

http://www.lensandrepro.com/USED/graflex.htm

 

It will work and be accurate. The Super Speed Graphic is cool....no Focal Plane Shutter but

has a Revolving Back and also more movements than the Crown or Speed models. (No

Back movements on any of them though).

 

Add a couple of Grafmatic Film Holders and you're set.

 

Don't even look at Linhofs. They are cool, but will give you massive Tendonitis after your

first day shooting handheld!

[johnmarkpainter]

Terry,

 

To add....I think it is best to keep your handheld camera as light as you can and then later

on just get a Field Camera. That way you have the best of both worlds. Otherwise you

end up with an impractical handheld and a hobbled View camera.

 

jmp

[ole_tjugen]

I have shot hand held with a Linhof Technika III 5x7". Once. While obviously constructed for that use, I am not constructed for handholding 7 kg of camera.

 

If I want to shoot hand held now, I pick up an ancient plate camera - a Voigtl䮤er Bergheil 9x12cm. Load film adapters and film in the plate holders, zone focusing, wire frame finder... And it all weighs less than the lens I used on the Linhof!<div></div>

[jay_capodiferro]

A Crown Graphic is well worth the money!!!! And it won't be that much! I picked up my Crown, in near mint condition with a rangelight for low-light conditions, with a 135mm Xenar and a 270mm Xenar for under $500 on @bay. Best money I ever spent. You must realize that with large format, comes larger developing equipment. If you develop your own, you will need trays, or tubes or tank etc. for developing the negatives. If you plan on enlarging these greater than 4x5, you will need an enlarger that will handle 4x5 negatives. All this said, it is still well worth the money. What I have found is that I rarely pick up any of my 35mm camera's any longer. I love that I am not burning thru rolls of 35mm film to get a few good negatives. I shoot a few 4x5, get better resolution, and get the same number of good images. There of course will always be a time with 35mm is the right choice, but I can do a lot with a 4x5 Crown that I hadn't thought I ever would.

[adrian_seward]

It's a good thing I didn't know how much a crown graphic was supposed to cost. I thought

I should be able to get one for $100, so I did. LOL.

 

My $50 360mm caltar was the ultimate bargain though!

[neal_wydra1]

Dear Terry,

 

A Crown Graphic with a working rangefinder and a few Graphmatic holders is a nice walking around camera. I have found is that if I accidentally pick up the camera and grab the area wher the cam is, I have to make sure things are still in place (no realignment, just a quick check to make sure things are in place). The second problem is that the camera should not be pointed down when cycling the Graphmatic holders.

 

Neal Wydra

[terry_stedman]

Thanks for all the advice! A crown graphic looks like the answer for me, then. I'm going to start hunting on ebay for some good deals.

 

Thanks!

[sanders_mcnew]

A diffferent idea: Since you like the TLR, have a look at Peter Gowland's 4x5 TLR, the Gowlandflex. For what you want to do, it's great -- you are able to keep your subjects in sight throughout the process, just as with your Mamiya. The only drawback, for your interests, is that it has no movements. But for your current use, it's a great option.

 

Peter, who is still alive and answering email, is a legend in glamour photography. Visit his site at www.petergowland.com and have a look.

 

Sanders McNew

 

www.mcnew.net

[incitatus_rex]

If you are short of cash, think twice about street shooting with a 4x5, especially if you use color. The initial cost of the camera is really not that important as film and printing costs will quickly overwhelm it, especially with 'street' shooting where you might go through a lot of film.

 

The Graphics are great cameras, I prefer a Speed instead of a Crown as it gives you the option of using shutterless lenses and I don't find the weight difference to be significant. The RF and the VF are separate (atleast in the older model that I have) and may inconvenience you.

 

Another option is to obtain a used Polaroid rollfilm camera and have it modified for 4x5 film. The cameras are cheap but the modifications cost several hundred dollars. With the 110B you get a combined RF/VF.

 

As for movements+occasional handheld use: if you want a sort of do-it-all camera a Technika comes to mind but good luck finding one cheap.

[carsten_benni]

Dear Terry,

first of all I am sorry for my bad english. Therefore maybe I did not catch "the beef" of

your question. But there is a wonderful 4x5 handeld camera, is the Littman 45 single. Had

a perfect rangefinder coupled with focusing system, It is a Polaroid 110 body modified to

fit a 4x5 back. It comes with the original 127 Rodenstock Ysarex or 127 Ennit objective or

you can choose other lenses (...Schneider 150 or Yashinon and so on). It is easy to get

infos about Littman cameras. Photo.net already hosted a lot of threads about it. And there

had been a lot of discussion pro or versus this camera. The only problems are: the price

that is not cheap as a Graflex, and the cameras movements, not every Littman model can

tilt. But it has wonderful quality and very precise rangefinder. And it is very light. I am

from Italy and I do not have one yet. But I used it and I handled it and I would like to buy

one... here is the website www.littman45single.com. Ciao, C.

[chris_coleman_smith1]

I've recently moved to a 6x9 Linhof Super Technika and i think it's quite possibly the best thing since sliced bread. I decided against 4x5 in the end because of the inherant darkroom related hassles, i was already awash with rollfilm.

While i heartily agree that the 4x5 [my god they made a 5x7] technikas are somewhat impractical for handheld shooting i've used by 6x9 quite happily and as of yet i lack an actual anatomic grip. I've had a hoot with my 2.8 105mm xenotar and a 6x9 roll back.

 

The main plus for street shooting as i can see is that the range-finder does a reasonable job of actually showing you what's going to be in the frame, certainly much more help than a Calart. You get a rotating back with a choice of film formats [assuming you can find them], front tilt and rise,and back tilt and swing.

 

Drawbacks being i fear the camera would work out a little on the bad side of $500 with 1 lens and 1 film back plus camming the rangefinder for any new lenses you want to use will end up costing the same as the camera. So you're stuck with the original lenses.

 

The mechanics of actual street shooting with the linhof is fairly easy too, meter beforehand, cock shutter, remember to open the little hood on the 'finder and then focus and snap away. The main problems i've had is forgetting to take the darkslide out, grr and having to take the camera away from my eye to advance the film. You don't want the handles in your eye, honest.

 

Is that any help?

[johnmarkpainter]

Terry,

 

Deals on ebay for Graphics are USUALLY not deals.

 

You aren't likely to find a seller who knows enough to tell you that the Rangefinder is

accurate, that the speeds are correct etc...etc...

 

More likely is that you find a deal on a nice looking camera for $200-$300 or so...and

then send it off to have the Shutter cleaned and the RF adjusted.

 

jmp

[adrian_seward]

Good luck-- hope you find a good one on ebay. That's where I got mine. The two things

to watch for are the back and the shutter. Look for a grafloc or graphic back. These will

take standard film holders. Avoid the graflex back. It takes special holder that are hard to

find. Confused yet? Check out graflex.org. (back are pretty easy to change, but if you go

looking for a graflok back to add to a $100 camera you may find it costs as much as the

camera.)

 

The other really common thing is for the old shutters to be totally gummed up and

useless. That was the case with mine. Having paid very little, I took my chances and just

sprayed it with solvent and exercised it until it was free. (After removing the lens.) This is

_not_ the right way to fix a stuck shutter, but I didn't have any money left and I figured

that a proper repair cost about the same as a replacement shutter, sooo....

 

As for film cost... I figure about 75 cents a shot for 4x5.... plus a few cents worth of

developer. Not bad, and you won't be shooting 36 shots at a time like 35mm. Color is a

lot more expensive.

[adrian_seward]

and....

 

Terry is right, it's tough to get a good deal. I got mine on memorial day last year. I think

people were busy doing other things, because no one was bidding. Mine was a real deal

because there were no pictures on the auction, so I was really taking a chance but I'm sure

the lack of pictures was why no one else was bidding very much.

 

Anyway, my point is that the prices seem to fluctuate in a weird way, so you may get a

deal eventually, but it's not easy. I swear the average price when I was looking for mine

was a lot less than right now. I saw a good looking one at a store yesterday, but I didn't

ask the price. The had a nice busch pressman for $300 also.

[philippe_vandenbroeck]

I'd second Carsten's suggestion: the Littmann Single. But it is expensive.

Another attractive and cheaper option is the new Fotoman 4x5PS camera.

Check it out at www.fotomancamera.com.

[silent1]

I'd second what Ole suggested -- a 9x12 plate camera will generally have front rise/fall and shift, a few have a drop bed that can pretend to be back tilt (since the tripod socket is on the bed and the level on the front standard -- can't do reverse tilt to throw foreground and high distance out of focus, though, unless you turn the camera upside down) or, with some manipulation, front tilt, and the Ica or Zeiss-Icon Juwel, if you can find one, may have more (it was the top of the line, but uses a proprietary and very hard to find film holder).

 

Film isn't terribly hard to come by, and there are adapters that allow use of 3x4 format as well (alternately, some of these cameras were professionally retrofitted with a "Hollywood back" that takes ANSI 3x4 double sided film holders). I have a bag behind me that holds two 9x12 plate cameras, 13 (single) plate holders, spare film boxes, ABS tubes for storing exposed film (in case of field reloads), changing bag, black t-shirt for dark cloth, cable releases, etc., and weighs about the same as a bare Speed Graphic with just one lens and the ground glass.

 

These were press cameras in their day, and are made to be used hand held, though like any other camera of their type, they're much better on a tripod. However, 320TXP is still available as a special order item from Kodak vendors, and in Diafine gives EI 1000 -- which is enough to hand hold at f/8 or smaller in pretty subdued light.

[razzledog]

If you don`t wish to shell out the big bucks, check out the many Polaroid conversions available at:

http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~razzle

 

There are many others performing 4x5 conversions to the Polaroid 110B resulting in a camera that is fast and lightweight thereby making handheld 4x5 photography easy. While the original lens is excellent it does lack great depth of field at wider apertures, however this can sometimes be to your advantage. The 127mm is also a little short for portraiture, so fitting a later 135mm or 150mm lens in a Copal 0 might be a great idea. I believe Fotoman manufacture a fantastic 4x5 'point an` shoot' that doesn`t cost an arm and a leg.

[allen_whittier]

I use a Super Gaphic. The features I like are;

 

Movement, It has more movements than the Speed or the Crown.

 

Range finder, It has a large easy to read dial on the top of the camera that's easy to read when you?re guessing your distance.

 

Cams, Interchangeable cams for the range finder to match your lens lengths.

 

Sports finder. On the street you don't even think of looking at the glass. You frame, trust your settings and judgment then shoot.

 

Best of all, The case looks like a surveyor's equipment when it's on a tripod. Wear the right cloths and hardhat, and you can blend into a construction site, my favorite place to shoot.

 

Keep in mind, that you use a sports finder to shoot on the fly. I found a 135mm Zeiss Jena Tessar in a Betax self cocking shutter. It relieved me of the need to cock the shutter and the lens is sharp at f11. I added a few Grafmatics, six shots, and Bagmatics, twelve shots, and ended up with a setup that allowed me to shoot as fast as I can cock the Grafmatic. That's about half the speed of a manual 35. You'll find the sports finder will allow you to frame much faster than a 35's viewfinder. It takes a bit of practice to adjust to the vertical shift of the sportsfinder when working close, but you're already using a TLR so that should be no problem.

 

Good luck.

[gordon_ian_stalker]

Getting lenses properly cleaned and rangefinders adjusted is not a major problem. In fact well within the capability of the average handyman with care and suitable tools. (These can be made or improvised at a pinch. See www.mypentax.com for what I mean.)

 

The magic trick with lenses is that they should be disassembled from the shutter before attempting cleaning, and wet cleaned with 50-50 ammonia and hydrogen peroxide. Just make sure that you don't get any between elements otherwise you may have to dis-assemble the lens groups. Often the lenses used don't have a lot of elements in any case, so even that is not disastrous, but it is fiddly and best avoided.

 

Use distilled water to remove the cleaning mixture. The mixture itself should not leave a deposit as both will completely evaporate away but you need to wick it all off otherwise the dirt will still be left behind as it dries. (This mixture can be used to clean fungal infestations too. But use it dilute and leave it on for an hour or so to give it a chance to kill off the fungus.)

 

Gummy shutters often go with hazy lenses, as this can be caused by lubricant vapour condensing on the lens. This may be due to the wrong sort of lubricant, or the shutter and lens may have been allowed to get unusually warm. If the shutter is sluggish suspect a hazy lens.

 

As to buying from eBay, remember that there are sellers who are qualified to make a proper assesment of a cameras working condition. I know because I sell cameras on eBay, and it really does get right up my nose the way that some sellers carry-on. It makes it much more difficult to realise a proper price for the stuff I'm selling!

 

My advice is to ask a few telling questions of the seller. (Such as asking to describe the camera movements, and how he knows the shutter is correctly timed and consistent.) If he does not know, or cannot refer you to somewhere you can check for yourself then he probably does not have a clue!

 

(It is not difficult to test the shutter speed. For the higher speeds you can view a TV screen while firing the shutter. Once you know the frame and line rates for your TV standard you can make a pretty accurate estimation on speeds of 1/60 and above. I use a photodiode to measure the speed accuratley on an oscilloscope.)

 

Don't be taken in by power-seller status, that's relatively easy to maintain. Check the feedback for the number of mutually withdrawn feedbacks, these are often negatives.

 

Also bear in mind that the best sellers will pick-up a negative once in a while, so if a seller has a very high perfect feedback score with no negatives it is very likely due to feedback extortion of some sort. (They may of course be perfect!)

 

Warning signs are...

 

Not stating a postal rate.

 

Not accepting PayPal. (Or making conditions on paypal payments)

 

Asking for payment in odd currencies. For example, why would a seller in Bournemouth demand payment (or even list prices) in $US? He will pay a curency exchange fee twice for most of his transactions. Once when the buyer pays, (assuming the buyer does not pay in $US) and once when the money is paid to his bank. (I can't think of any way that would work in his advantage.)

 

Overly brief descriptions. (An item worth ?500 deserves more than five minutes description.)

 

No refund conditions. (Eg, exchange only etc.)

 

Returns conditions in breach of or limiting, normal trade regulations. (These sellers are professional business users. They should offer the same sales assurance as any other business.

 

The ebay regulations are designed to provide a minimum level of assurance, to ensure that private transactions are conducted equably. Trade sales are alos covered by local or international trade laws.

 

Any activity on the part of the seller which is in breach of eBay's user agreement. These include but are not limited to, deliberately listing in innapropriate categories, adding surcharges (for paypal fees etc), or other breaches. A seller willing to break these rules is much more prone to break more 'important' rules.

 

Sellers who 'don't know much about cameras' who seem to have quite a lot of cameras for sale are usually just a bit dodgy too. Especially if the camera is described as in good working order! (Think about it.)

 

Also check the feedback left for others, (Bad sellers tend to leave agressive feedback.) and read the feedback comments left.

 

Always, always contact the seller before making a bid. Their repsonse will tell you a lot!

 

Another bad sighn is a seller who has re-listed the same item time and over agian at a low price, but collects no bids. Why would that be I wonder. (I know one seller who thinks it is a sensible business practice to block buyers who raise an issue. Saves them the trouble of remembering not to shop there again! I should not say who but he has tried to sell the same Kodak 5x4 three times now for ?75. Nothing wrong with the camera as far as I can see, but quite a lot wrong with the seller I think.)

 

I could go on but it would take all night, but basically anything which looks odd should be taken as a possible warning sign.

 

 

Good signs are the absence of the above bad signs.

 

An open declaration that they are a business seller. A detailed description of their tems of sale, how to pay, and how to obtain a refund if it is necesary. (If these are on the listing then you don't need to go to eBay if you are ripped off!) Also a knowledgable reply to your questions is reassuring. (Especially if you already know the answer!)

 

Don't be too put off by postal rates. Legally the responsibility for the post is the sellers,and the post may have to cover insurance and packaging too. (And packaging can be surprisingly expensive.)

 

Ask for a breakdown of the postal cost if it seems a bit high. Often these are approximated, as the exact weight etc until after packing. If you know of cheaper postal option, then don't be afraid to mention it. The sender may be happy to know that, but there may be legitamate reasons that they can't (or don't want to) use that option.

 

And don't forget the golden rule:

 

DON'T BID UNLESS YOU ARE 100% HAPPY WITH THE SELLER.

 

So do consider eBay, but also excerice caution.

 

I for one will be very happy if you take a few minutes to report suspicious listings to eBay. Competition is one thing, but having to compete with cowboys who tarnish the overall market is quite another.

 

One further tip on eBay...

 

Hold off buying until the end of a 'glut'. Many sellers try and hang-on to items until the see that examples are selling for a good price. This can actually cause prices to increase as the supply apparently dries up. At some point a camera will get sold for a very good price, and shortly after that the sellers will try and cash in on the high price. This will only work for the first few to appear, and then the price will begin to fall to a low. If you get it right you can buy at the bottom of the cycle, and pick up a real bargain. If not you can wait for the next cycle and try again!