Wista 4x5 Tech Rangefinder or Litmman 45 single?

[ricardo_villagran]

Hello,

 

I've been tempt to get into LF for quite a long time now, not for business, just for pleasure.

I want a field camera, portable, easy to use, so I ended up with the 2 options that I think

are closer to my MF background; the Wista technical rangefinder and the Littman 45. I

haven't found too much info about these 2 brands besides their websites, seems like the

Wista is a little more versatile than the Littman...-?- so I would really appreciate if you can

give me some comments here. Sorry for my english. Regards, Ricardo

[ricardo_villagran]

I would like to add that I been using it basically for people and landscape shots basically,

no product shots, or commercial studio work... thanks!

[johnmarkpainter]

Also consider a Super Speed Graphic from www.lensrepro.com

 

jmp

[will_legge]

Ricardo, why do you need a rangefinder? If you use the movements on

the Wista, the rangefinder becomes harder to use. If you are using

these on a tripod, ground glass focusing is better.

 

If you want to hand hold these, the Litmman has the advantage. But

you can also use a Cambo Wide with an accessory rangefinder.

[andrea_lee3]

I have no experience with Wista, but have tried out the Littman. Note that this was one of

the earliest models, but the problems seemed to be a few glitches with the build,

inaccuracies with the parallax compensation; the heart of the matter is that it's based on a

Polaroid 4x5 "undercarriage" for 4x5 (pack) film, which does not have the same

dimensions as standard 4x5 film.

 

You weren't very specific about your MF background, but LF is just so different that it's

difficult to make general correlations. But if being able sling it on your shoulder, and then

focus and shoot, I'd agree that a press camera would be the best choice; the reporters

using them were concerned about speed and getting the shot, and not about Scheimpflug

adjustments.

 

My reccomendation is a Linhof Technika, if only because the company is still alive. The

rangefinder, which most users ignore or even remove, works...but under certain

conditions. For a Tech III, the serial number of the camera, the "cam" (the controlling

mechanism that couples the RF to the lens), and the lens must match. The Tech III is no

longer supported, but it's lighter.

 

For the Tech IV, the serials on the lens and cam must match. If the back is properly

aligned, the RF is clean, and the infinity stops where they should be, you should be able to

see a shot and take it within twenty seconds.

[van_camper]

I read the Wista rangefinder prevents loading the Polaroid 545(i) film holder. Pretty sure it was at this site, do a search. Maybe you can email him.

[ricardo_villagran]

Thank you guys for your kind comments! I will keep doing more research before I made

my decision... these kind of cameras are quite expensive so I need to be very sure of what

I am doing. Thank you again!

[william_littman]

Andrea ; thanks for trying out the camera and yes the earlier models

had many glitches and that is why it had to be evolved.

 

Primarily the fact that the original camera was built in such a way that it doesn't allow you to view the image horizontally and vertically with both eyes without becoming a contortionist and that translated into what you describe as optimum distance from eye to finder must be present for the parallax to work.The internal mechanism has also been completely redesigned since.The first 100% parallax on the L45 was only quantitative but did not show the qualitative aspect of perspective which you get thru an SLR the new one has also addressed that issue.

The projection issue was never a problem because the image is projected backwards / centered and full 4x5. using a secondary holder as a spacer for weight reduction has no effect on quality and the image starts small at the lens and magnifies backwards so does the camera.

 

But the main thing is that this is a 1 owner camera, I'm surprised that the couple of rental units which exist have performed as well and most got good results, used them on jobs etc, but I don't service them and many who went on to buy a camera say the difference is substantial.

 

There are cameras like an RZ or a Nikon which are a much better bet as a rental camera and if you notice they weigh almost the same for formats several times smaller , there is a difference in the build which accounts for the weight.

 

A Linhoff is also a good bet as a rental as it is much sturdier but that translates to weight as well.

 

Whether you borrowed it or rented it most people take a little while to get used to it and as I said earlier I am the first one to have recognized glitches and have had to address them though most people still love the earlier models and I rarely get requests for repairs on them even from 2nd and 3rd owners.

 

As a matter of fact the new model was not yet available for rental and a guy who rented the old one last week said that it is working fine and wants one. It is hard for me to even consider that a couple of such cameras which have been thru thousands of heavy duty shoots can still work at all or work well at all after 4 years

the 2 or 3 rental cameras which exist were made in the summer of 2000 and will be replaced in a few weeks.

 

For me the rental issue is something I have mixed feelings about for this very reason , you might be kind to the camera but most who rent aren't .

 

I rented a car last weekend which had 15000 miles only and was falling apart noting that rental cars are usually chosen because they perform well as rental cars.

 

I am posting this because Andreas comment was a good question which I face on a daily basis.Realizing that some need to experience something first hand I recognize a need for such evaluations knowing that in some cases it will not be representative of the product expected to be accurate and as it is not built like a tank that is inevitable. yet it has proven to be as reliable and consistent as any product as a 1 owner camera .

 

I also recognize that someone might not like it even if it worked perfectly .

You can read an article on American Photo which will be on Newsstands on December 15th , I believe it is the January 2005 issue and it goes to narrate that a photographer who had been using the camera for 4 years on a regular basis and which owns many different cameras just shot his own fashion designs with the L45s, he doesn't even have the newer model and the cameras have been serviced a couple of times since he bought them to install copal shutters and general maintenance.

 

I cant specify more on the story because of copyright and its also not out yet but if such a fashion photographer has had the opportunity to shoot for the best designers throughout a most prolific career one could say that photographing his own designs could be considered as really big opportunity if not the greatest .

 

It is not an isolated incident but the norm and two days ago I received an email from a photo.net member who was one of my harshest critics earlier on regarding price and went on to buy several "other cameras" which claimed to be alternatives to the l45s and this is what he had to say for the third time.Sunday, December 05, 2004 8:15 PM"Hello William,Hope all is well with you. My camera has been performing flawlessly. I am leaving Tuesday for a shoot in Arizona and will be shooting the L45s II exclusively."

 

His first experience with the l45s was borrowing it from a friend who bought it second hand and again he had emailed a positive comment.

 

It is not like I'm running around acting as the glue that holds these things together, they stand on their own for those who committed, these are not tanks but also not flimsy at all and much sturdier and reliable than the original.yet as anything else eventual service is required.

 

The one thing which is consistent with this product is that satisfaction appears to require a relationship and that quickies are just that.

 

The photographer mentioned in the article is extremely proficient yet needed a few weeks working with the camera before he felt comfortable with it but it paid off big time.

 

Most my customers aren't famous , never met me , never touched or saw the camera personally before receiving it but what they got was fresh

out of the oven , there are some who bought cameras second hand as posted on photo.net and required service but then they said it was their favorite camera but before that they tried to save money and bought alleged alternatives to then admit it is a mistake.

 

I admit that wanting to evaluate something before an expenditure is a very valid point yet certain that if I had approached the project differently and facilitated evaluations more the camera would have never gotten the recognition it has because when It was introduced its conveniences were not considered as necessary by the Lf community which felt that a snapshot camera should be a Leica or why use 4x5 for snapshots anyway and if you did just use the sunny 16 rule and so forth, to a large degree this is still the case , The L45 being a new way of photographing requires more effort from the user than from the equipment at first and only after a minimum required learning experience time has elapsed does the equation revert, apparently from what owners state the payoff is considerable but all agree there is an initial effort.

 

Then came along those hoping to cash in on its success by saying that its conveniences are smoke and mirrors insisting that an external appearance means a = b.

 

This has raised the bar and hurt many who could have benefited creatively .

 

In any event Andrea in a few weeks the new model will be available for evaluations, you should get a chance to try it out for free if you already had to pay the first time.

 

If you are interested I will provide the info to you as I do not feel comfortable posting business links here.

 

Unfortunately for the reasons stated there will only be a couple of rental units in NYC and in LA both will have 1 with a original lens in a copal shutter and one modern lens in a copal shutter.

 

As to the title of this thread it is not my place to comment on that and I encourage a free discussion .

 

I will not participate further on this thread and wish you all a Joyous Holiday season and all the best for 2005.

 

 

 

 

 

[william_littman]

To summarize the Polaroid 110b modified to pack film is/ was a beloved camera as a 1 owner camera it never became a rental camera while the Polaroid 180 is carried by most rental houses. Yet most who own both agree that the 110b has more soul.

 

I set out to make a camera that would perform while not considering its nostalgic value so I was glad that people like it but neither myself or my customers care that it uses an old Polaroid as a frame .

 

That was the first step and not the end result , you confirm this and so do many others on contemporary threads right now.

 

So Glitches to me are any obstacle which I encounter in the original

unmodified camera that need to be changed because the 4x5 piggy back factor is more of a curiosity like seeing someone with a boa strapped around their neck , you don't get a better image because of it.

 

I had said many times that even if the body of the camera is a Littman , the body alone / conversion alone is not worth it and not the reason the L45s has been embraced.

 

The L45s is not a "standard "rental camera but much more so than the original 110b because as stated earlier it is rented by the most respected NYC rental house and has performed better than expected by me while the original modified to pack film which has a bigger market and demand and readily available is not a rental camera anywhere.

 

The 110b was a 1 owner camera , so is the L45s, the littman has performed well as a rental camera with a few exceptions but as a 1 owner camera it appears to have performed better than anything else for its intended purpose , I can live with that.

[roger_michel]

the wista is such a vastly superior product IMO that it is hard to

believe that anyone but william littman himself is posing such a

question. the build quality, reliability, versatility of the wista is in a

whole other league.

 

my perception is that the littman product is more or less a vanity

enterprise for its creator. admittedly it must be hugely profitable

assuming he is able to find takers. mint 110Bs sell for $100.

the parts necessary for conversion (basically a polaroid pack

back and some oddments from a graflok back) add maybe an

addition $125. throw in an hour or so of labor and you're there.

 

look, with the wista you get a really fine camera with movements

and interchangeable lenses. it has a robust and accurate RF.

buy one and forget all the troubles associated with

home-brewed cameras. and if not a wista then a tech iv.

 

or better yet, considering just how good film has gotten in the

last twenty years, forget about the 4x5 alternatives and get a nifty

horseman 6x9 like a 970, 975 or even an fa. all of the benefits of

the wista with the convenience of rollfilm.

 

just my 2 cents.

[alban_christ]

You are right the Littman camera is not your fathers oldsmobile or should I say

grandfather's?

 

That is the whole point for the camera beeing streemline!

It may not be as strurdy as a traditional view camera but if the Wista is strurdier than the

littman the linhoff is sturdier than the wista and also better built and still I prefer the

littman to any view camera.

 

Reliable? I have used it for 3 years on a regular basis and at one point it needed a copal

shutter because the vintage shutters are not as reliable and tend to slow down after a

while.

 

But as far as the camera, it has gone with me to the ends of the earth and performed

great and continues to do so on editorial and commercial jobs on a regular basis.

 

If it looks like a pushcart to some who cares, to me its like seabiscuit and it is wining

all the races and comparing it to a conventional 4x5 is like comparing spaceship1 to a

747, the second is more versatile and better built but this one takes me where I want to

go and the other ones made me feel I was taking them around as a baggage.

 

And if the more adventurous is reliable enough and extremly precise without the bagage

while extremely efficient I do not consider it as a setback.

 

I considered it because of what it could do for my work creatively as I explained in the

following interview

"http:www.photoworkshop.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=8&num=408"

 

But here I provide technical reasons and convinced that if the equipment can be

streamline to be less in the way or distracting to the photographic process the

difference will be noticed in the pictures and not the camera .

Apparently after 3 years people are still looking at bolts and not pictures.

 

Many are still saying it is a 110b camera with a 4x5 back and I tell you it is a lot more

than that. as so many have comfirmed that the other ones like that have to be flipped

back and forth just to focus them and with poor results, they say its better to focus

horizontal and then view vertical? they dont crop well and are heavy. What a waste of

time!

 

you say that it hard to beleive, you havent seen it and I have seen what it can do.

I still use other 4x5 cameras for tripod work but find that it is the Littman that is in a

whole league by itself and beeing of such limited numbers because of the amount of work

it takes and that is unlikely to change yet, that shouldn't result this mean spirited

comments based on the look of the outside.

 

It makes the pictures look better .. who cares how the camera looks. I think it looks

kind of cool actually but this not the reason i choose to continue using it..

 

I have trusted my work to the camera and after this long, the honeymoon is still going

strong, " une vraie merveille" merci William!

 

I have owned a lot of cameras, some worked better than others but I am proud to use

and own the Littman , apparently that is the case with other owners and that is the big

difference and in my opinion Littman has a lot to feel proud about.. yet he is always

focused and concentrated on his work and has no time for vanity , but he has earned

respect which appears to upset some people.

 

I dont think he has made any profit yet but I know that his work has helped my profits

and my creativity. I bought the camera for creative purposes and not for the extra

baggage and that is the whole point!.. So the better build should help my photography.

 

the better build of earlier designs did not..

 

Bonne annee/ happy new year to all

 

AC