The Zeiss attack - what does it mean for Leica?

[frank_reidelbach]

At Leitz management I would be seriously concerned now about a few

things:

 

- the last German competitor in high-class optical business seriously

makes the first attempts in 50 years to drive me out of camera

business attacking my last own segment, top rangefinder camera class,

with a half-price product (this to be said, Leitz vice-versa has

attacked Zeiss Contax SLR business in the 70's)

 

- he is able to do that without major own risk with badge-engineering

and assistance from an ambitious japanese newcomer like Cosina (which

means they reached the technical edge to some extend)

 

- Zeiss probably will not make big sales with the ZI (Too small the

market) but Leica will loose sales a lot. Cosina again will grow.

Zeiss don't care if Leica survives in the market or not. Who will buy

a M7 if another first-class-camera with exactly the same features and

premier name like Zeiss-Ikon?

 

Obviously Mr. Kobaayshi is not the bad guy in this story. He makes

his best for his company establishing them as "premier" maker of

cameras and lenses, both with "own" brand (Voigtlaender) or thris-

party. The good quality of Voigtlander lenses has qualified them to

brand-making not only Nikon but now Zeiss. Costs in Japan rising the

same as in Germany, i.e. human work. Driving from the competition of

South-Korea and China Cosina has to leave the cheap niche in order to

survive on business.

 

In the last couple of years Cosina - using the traditional name of

Voigtlaender - made a friendly competion to Leica rounding up the

bottom of the RF market with series of cameras and lenses providing

80% of Leica quality for 30% of their costs due to automatic

produkction, bigger series, divisersification (basically the same

lense with a lot of bayonets) and intelligent niche evaluation and

market feeling of Mr. Koyabashi. Whereas the evolution of Leica

lenses become very slow and, for cameras, like non-existent. Even

this staeted as a win-win-situation for both, iIt could be foreseen

that the competition of Cosina would become harder. The Zeiss attack

comes from a different direction, much more serious for Leitz.

 

Maybe Leitz is gone too small driving big efforts for innovation like

they used do in the 1920-1950s, driving the whole business forward.

Since the 1950's Leitz and Zeiss avoided direct competition. Both

survived the camera crisis as premier optical manufacturers, the

least two of Germany. Both marketing their good name for badge-

engineering and specializing: One could think that either need the

good reputation of the other for keeping quality- and price level.

Now Zeiss has cancelled the co-existance and attacks Leica seriously.

Seems Winter is coming soon for Leica this year...

[kevin m.]

Zeiss and Cosina are the least of Leica's concerns. It's that great big <b>"D"</b> looming large and blocking out the Sun of Film that Leica has no answer for.

[andy_aitken]

Yes, indeedy. My guess is that the Zeiss Ikon Digital will hit the market before the Leica M Digital does and that will be the final nail in Leicas (almost finished) coffin. And I bet this is essentially of Zeiss' masterplan - kill Leica then clean up on a significant Digital M market.

[icuneko]

All we need now to complete this melodrama is for KonicaMinolta to bring back the Hexar AF. Yippee!!!

[kevin m.]

Here we have exhibit #759 why the Leica forum should be killed. I'm unaware of any other equipment forum where participants root on the demise of the equipment-maker in question. Leica, a company so tiny that it barely exists, makes the best lenses ever made for 35mm photography, yet you goons cheer their demise. Rooting for the underdog is understandable, but rooting for the inevitability of Canon/Nikon success baffles me. I'll leave it to the Freudians to figure out what's really going on here.

[Bill Blackwell Images]

This is, of course, great news for us (the M users), but very bad news for Leica.

 

In the world of economics, what separates the men from the boys is COMPETITION! What puzzles me is why Cosina and Zeiss are entering this limited market in the first place. The only conclusion I can come up with is that they intend to put the final nail in Leica's coffin and put them in the ground forever (or acquire them for cheep). This, of course would finally put the Leitz family out of its misery.

[brambor]

I'm with Kevin on this one. The last thing I want is for companies like leica to go away. It would be a dull world.

[bas1]

Leica have themselves to blame. They've hammered their quality argument as a sales

argument to such an extend that they could never switch to cheaper production. If they

did they would loose their current customers cause they feel that the new Leica stuff is

inferior to the older products, which to an extend is already the case given the religous

following and values of the M3/2/4. Second hand prices would also drop considerably if

they started with cheaper products now. They would also not have much of a chance

against Cosina in cheaper production either.

 

They pay the price for not having inovated earlier.

 

Only way out is to keep the MP as it is today to keep the fondlers happy, Keep the a la

carte program (with some more options then they currently have, direct sales for a la carte

items to benefit from the higher margins.

 

Then introduce a M8 with better AE specs, faster sync and at lower price to compete with

Zeiss. Same with the lensses. Develop a cheaper series with same optical formula but

produced in Japan. These should generate more volume keeping the dealers happy who

now compete with Leica on direct sales for A La Carte Leica's.

 

The customer group that doesn't care about the super duper build quality but

want the best value will buy those, as they currently buy CV. The Leicaphiles would stick

with their build in Germany as they do now ...

 

Time for Leica to pick up the glove that Zeiss has thrown them and toss it right back at

them. Plenty of time since the camera won't start selling till May ' 05.

[gary_ferguson1]

"Yes, indeedy. My guess is that the Zeiss Ikon Digital will hit the market before the Leica M Digital does and that will be the final nail in Leicas (almost finished) coffin."

 

I'm not so sure. I was about to sell off a few of my Leica lenses and cut my system down to a "sentimental minimum", but news like this makes a good digital M body from Leica or someone else that much more likely, so I'll hang on in there a bit longer yet.

[Bill Blackwell Images]

"Rooting for the underdog is understandable, but rooting for the inevitability of Canon/Nikon success baffles me."

 

The way I see it, no one is cheering for the demise of anyone! We are just looking at the cold hard facts and what this all means.

[kevin m.]

I'm betting that due to their philosophical bent, as well as economic necessity, Leica is waiting until some stability is achieved with regard to digital sensors before they enter the fray. Likewise, I would imagine that when Leica does enter the digital market, they won't do so until they are satisfied that the sensor and their lenses work well together. Whether or not you think achieving the nth degree of resolution from a small format is worth the trouble or not, it's been their policy for quite some time now.

[furcafe]

Huh? Zeiss Ikon produced the Contax RFs through the 1950s, providing plenty of direct competition (along w/Nikon & Canon) for Leica's M's & IIIg. Then in the '60s, Leica had their Leicaflex to compete w/Zeiss Ikon's Contarex, etc.

 

I think what's amusing is that after reviving the Voigtlander brand, Cosina is now working w/Carl Zeiss to revive the Zeiss Ikon brand, thereby symbolically recreating the Zeiss Ikon-Voigtlander combo that existed in the 1960s-70s.

 

My view is that competition is a good thing . . . for consumers &, if it makes the right moves, for Leica, too. Leica was always a relatively small company compared w/its competitors--I think history shows that it was competition from big players like Zeiss Ikon (which took a big chunk of the 35mm market away from Leitz w/the Contax line in the 1930s) that spurred the development of the M series, for example.

 

---------------------

 

"Since the 1950's Leitz and Zeiss avoided direct competition."

[frank_reidelbach]

Leica has themthelfes to blame ...for sleeping and arrogance... like Voigtlander in the 50s and Rollei in the 70s for going down. Yes, it would be a pity if Leica goes down... but my funds as a user are too small to finance them.. leave it up for collectors attracted from Leitz brochures, with two homes, three cars, four oversea holidays per year and five platin cards.. ;-)

[mike_elek]

Well, it's hilarious to see the Leica vs. Zeiss debate has been renewed, which for the moment has replaced the infantile Canon vs. Nikon debate.

[godfrey]

<i> ... "All that's left is for Konica Minolta to bring back the Hexar RF ... </i>

<br><br>

That's the Hexar Dimage RFd, please. There's no point in another film camera. And they'll

all be able to take advantage of the new Zeiss lens line in M-mount.

<br><br>

Godfrey

[chip l.]

What I find amusing is that the Contax will be built with Cosina. The quality would be a

concern for me with the bodies in the long term verses the Leica.

[jorge]

<i>>> In the world of economics, what separates the men from the boys is COMPETITION! What puzzles me is why Cosina and Zeiss are entering this limited market in the first place. <<</i>

<br><br>

But will they (Cosina and Zeiss) be able to deliver the necessary Cartier and Dunhill versions?

[frank_reidelbach]

its not a "Leica vs. Zeiss"/ which is best debate... see the technical specs/tests and decide yourself at a particular camera, or focal length.. quite managable task for people able to read and think.. it's question of "who will survice".. who had thought that a German(!) not a Japanese company tempt to strike Leica dead... :-(

[mike_elek]

"Contax will be built with Cosina"

 

Minor correction -- this is not being branded as a Contax. Rather as a Zeiss-Ikon. So the name of a former company is being used as the name of a camera.

[eric friedemann]

O.k., I'm missing something. I saw some pix posted of a new, retro-looking Zeiss Ikon.

 

Is this camera film or digital? What lenses will it take? Links?

[jorge]

Eric,

 

It's all on the Zeiss site. Go to www.zeiss.de and follow the photography links to "back with passion".

[jorge]

There are some bold statements in the FAQ section, like that the lenses will be affordable and better than other M mount lenses. That's a tall statement but some of the MTF graphs in the PDF brochures from the Downloads page are impressive. I'll wait for the 21/2.8. How much does a CV 21/4 in mint condition sells for, these nowadays?

[michael s.]

For starters, press release is <a href=http://www.zeiss.de/C1256A770030BCE0/WebViewTopNewsAllE/1A30F92F41D05AB4C1256F1C002E544A>here</a>.

[michael s.]

And for ease of reference, more detailed info is

<a href=http://www.zeissikon.com/system.htm>here</a>.

[tom_burke3]

Kevin: I don't think there will ever be "some stability achieved with regard to digital

sensors".There will always be a better one just 9 months after the last, best, sensor ever -

that's the nature of the beast.

 

That nature is fundamentally different from what has gone before. There are opportunities

for companies to make money, and opportunities for photographers to make great images

with cutting-edge equipment, but in order to keep doing the latter they'll have to keep

helping the companies with the former. Things are absolutely different today: with

conventional technology, there is nothing to stop a user of an M1 - hell, maybe even an

MD - from creating the best image ever made with a Leica, All they need to use is the

latest/most suitable film and the best lens for the job, and they can indeed do both of

these. With digital the camera itself is a determinant of the quality of the image - all other

things being equal, an image created with a Canon EOS 1DS Mark II will simply be better

than a similar image produced with a D30.

 

Leica need to grasp this fact and dive in. For goodness' sake, the photographic world will

go mad for a seriously good digital M! And, they'll happily replace it with an even better

one 18 months later, just like they replaced D30s with D60s & 10Ds, and are now

replacing D60s and 10Ds with 20ds. But all the signs are that it won't be Leica that

produce the digital cameras on which we can use their lenses.