Spelling alert... "Esthetics"??? - & Philosophy

[syd]

I thought I should alert somebody who controls these matters that the

"Esthetics" in the title of your forum with "philosophy" should be

"Aesthetics". Since I am particularly interested in both I also assume

that others interested in these matters are also painfully aware of

the correct spelling.

 

This has been a public service announcement...

[mike dixon]

Esthetics is an acceptable variant of aesthetics. (see <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=esthetics">dictionary.com</a>)<P>

[syd]

It's a variant ... not the original spelling. However if it's acceptable then fair enough. The English language gets butchered enough these days that I thought it worth pointing out; I still think Esthetics is a butchering. ;)

[mike dixon]

Its use seems quite <a href="http://www.altavista.com/web/results?itag=wrx&q=esthetics+philosophy+history&kgs=0&kls=0">widespread</a>. I also tend to use the spelling "aesthetic," but that doesn't make "esthetic" incorrect.

[peter_evans4]

<p>If we're going to go all schoolmarmy about it, why not <em>æsthetic</em>?</p>

[mike dixon]

Would it be <i>schoolmarmy</i> or <i>schoolmarmish</i>? ; )

[jeff_lu]

esthetics just isn't proper enough for an internet forum...use aesthetics (as i do) and

intelligent debate will follow...

 

its not a painful awareness...i've lived in many countries, all of which have mangled

languages into their own...i have nothing against that

[richard_ilomaki]

Simon

 

"Aesthetic" is a pseudo-snobbish holdover from the original Greek spelling, but as we are speaking English, let us spell it as closely to phoneticly as we can:- esthetic is painfully correct.

 

It is like those who pronounce the Spanish Province as "Cathtile" or German Richard as "Reekard":- Intellectual "Poseurs", as they say "En France".

 

Cheers

[syd]

Nice to see the intelligentsia of sarcasm make their play. ;o)

 

"Aesthetics" may well be a hang over from the Greek but nobody I ever spoke to ever pronounced the word as "Esthetic". It is actually pronounced "A" ( as in ass ) - esthetics, rather than "E" ( as in ess ) I have nothing against the mangling of Language, after all, to be perfectly fair, English is of itself a mixture of Saxon, Latin, Norman and the odd bit of Brythonic. My objection is the abuse and butchery of words and language due to ignorance of the proper form.

 

But what would you expect from a pig but a grunt? *L*

[syd]

Richard.

 

"...but as we are speaking English, let us spell it as closely to phoneticly as we can:- esthetic is painfully correct."

 

If we were to take this approach in English everytime we thought correct spelling was a little too hard we'd end up with this hacked up bit of jib.

 

Sarm instead of Psalm.

 

Brik instead of Brick.

 

Foto instead of Photo.

 

Terkee instead of Turkey.

 

Zenofobe instead of Xenophobe.

 

All of the above looks like the world of text messaging. Modern culture makes a daily assault in the cause of dumbing downl, large scale. I consider "Aesthetics" my minor factional rebellion against that kind of atrophy. Arr wel skruu it.

 

Best.

[Troll]

I'm not sure how to either pronounce or spell it, but its use in any capacity on photo.net seems out of place.

[mike dixon]

<i>It is actually pronounced "A" ( as in ass ) - esthetics, rather than "E" ( as in ess )</i><P>

According to various dictionaries (see the link in my first response), this is incorrect. Your decision to use "A as in ass" when advising the rest of us to butcher the language in order to match your poor pronunciation is quite ironic.

[van_camper]

Leds get back tu camewa issues...please!

 

I came here to read about photography, not learn spelling! Please remember that people around the world visit here, they all have the right to contribute, the best they can. You got lots of brass thinking the web is for english speaking only.

[www.graemehird.com]

Want to see how English <i>should</i> be mangled? <p>

 

Go to www.engrish.com - phonetic spelling at its best ..... when you can't pronounce it properly.

[syd]

Mike.

 

"According to various dictionaries (see the link in my first response), this is incorrect."

 

I take your point and have seen what these dictionaries have to say. I suppose I come from a time when dictionaries ( not modern online types ) had the correct pronunciation as I have stated it. It seems the so-called evolution of this word is destined for some newer inflection.

The irony as you have stated it actually doubly so in this case.

[mark_blackman1]

I always find it interesting to read foreigners' dictatorial comments about *my* language. As an Englishman, born in England of English parents, who attended English schools where I was taught English by English teachers (many of whom had degrees in English awarded by English universities), I'm happy to put up with mis-spellings (color, foto etc.), incorrect pronunciations and even erroneous dimensions (it?s 10x8 and 5x4).

 

Why do we put up with this? It?s simple; I forgive these slip-ups because the meaning behind the words is more important than the syntax. I couldn?t care less (NOT could care less) whether an image was shot on FP4 or some alien emulsion ? it?s the result that counts.

[syd]

Mark.

 

I'm not too clear on who you are addressing but I'll assume it's me. I am English of English parents with a few PHD's among my milieu so don't assume I am a foreigner; not that this should even matter. Indeed there are many Indian people in India who speak better English than English born people.

 

This is not dictatorial or personal but rather something that to me seemed a mistake according to the education I receieved at various private schools and institutions - I would scarcely mention this elitist bit of tosh but for your own assertians which you seem to find validating. So for your sake perhaps now I've proved I'm somewhere on your level.

 

Personally, for my part, I think it's important know how to spell as well as speak a language; particularly if that language is the one your were born speaking! I have no problem with spelling mistakes that are made in the heat of typing as we are all prone to this affliction. My point is rather that this website is in English, if I am not mistaken, and as such I thought that the correct spelling of a word ( from where I stand ) was important enough to mention. I'm actually pretty light hearted about it but there are certainly those who lack humour who would rather defer to modern online dictionaries. :D

 

If that's your bag then fine ... *L*

[rj__]

Simon,

 

Personally, I defer to the on-line version of the Oxford English Dictionary. Under the definition of aesthetics, one finds that the spelling "esthetics" was used as early as 1832. As for current usage, the OED recognizes "esthetics" as a variant spelling. The decionary says that the word is pronounced "esthetics". It does not mention, let alone recognize, the pronunciation "asthetics".

 

Posted in good fun. Cheers.

[syd]

RJ..

 

Fair enough, it seems that they both have a place. As for pronunciation, it appears that Oxford holds on the E whereas I was always taught and have found many who teach professorships at University to keep to the Aesthetic as I have pointed to. The omittance of the latter pronunciation in the Oxford must be taken on board, though I have it in other dictionaries as otherwise.

 

Thanks. ;)

[jim_galli4]

This discussion is aesinine. The mathematical quotient of the geek ratio for LF photographers just spiraled upwards.

[bob.]

Erm, I think some people have misunderstood the function of a dictionary. Dictionaries reflect usage, they do not dictate it.

 

"Color" is not a mis-spelling: it is the correct spelling in the US - and other places, no doubt: just as valid as "colour" in the UK (and other places, no doubt...).

 

As for pronunciation, well, really! Even within the UK, go a hundred miles down the road and listen - practically every word you care to hear is pronounced differently from the place you just left: does a Cornishman sound like a Brummie? Now add a few thousand miles to reach the US and Canada. Listen. Add another 10 thousand or so more to reach Australasia and listen again. Now tell me there is a "correct" way to pronounce any particular English word.

 

The English language is not the private property of upper-middle class English university Dons compiling dictionaries in their Oxford rooms: and thank God for that. It is a world language with all the colour (or indeed color) and variety that brings. Unlike some languages where attempts are made to fix the language in stone, English has always been left to add and adapt from other languages and cultures. Long may it continue to do so.

 

Cheers,

 

 

P.S. The only exception to the above is "lense" which is an abomination against nature and practitioners should be hung, drawn and quartered, and then burnt at the stake until they promise to spell it correctly...

[rj__]

Bob,

 

You are quite right that certain dictionaries reflect usage. That being the case, the uses are not necessarily exhaustive. The OED is a usage-based dictionary and the question of how aesthetic is pronounced is a particularly good example of usage variance. Some other dictionaries are more prescriptive. For a long time (some people, myself included, think too long a time), the Academie Francaise has been producing a prescriptive dictionary, and it works on quite different principles.

 

I am more interested in the hostility that Simon's post has generated.

 

I participate in three international internet fora that function in English. If Simon or others want to complain about Photo.net on linguistic grounds, the use of the word "forums" is perhaps a more obvious target than esthetics. More importantly, I find that my fellow participants, outside photo.net, are very interested in English usage. I also participate in a forum about photography in French, and among the things that I like about that forum is what I learn about French language usage.

 

I think that the people who are against discussions on this site about the use of English are missing a couple of things. The first is that the participants whose native language is not English almost certainly learn something from discussions about the use of English. The second, given the negative responses from native English speakers to Simon's post, is that some people need to take the question of communication more seriously. Specifically, they need to read, at a minimum, E.B. White's edition of Strunk, and preferably, they need to read John Gardner's The Art of Fiction.

 

This may be a photo site, but it remains the case that our discussions about photography are conducted in writing, which in turn means that proficiency in writing, and discussion about the meaning of words, deserve our respect.

 

For myself, I enjoyed Simon's post. It caused me to look up, and think about, an important word. It's a real pity that some people trash him for provoking this discussion.

 

But what do I know. I'm just a Canadjun, eh?

[van_camper]

"I'm not too clear on who you are addressing but I'll assume it's me. I am English of English parents with a few PHD's among my milieu so don't assume I am a foreigner; not that this should even matter"

----------------------- Simon White

 

 

So you have a "few PHD's", yet you appear not too sure exactly how many you have! A few implies at least three....Hmmmm. By the way, you should know this one.....it's PhD and not PHD! OMG, you made a mistake!

[mike dixon]

I don't think anyone trashed Simon for provoking the "discussion," but I can understand some of the negativity. Despite the fact that many respected dictionaries contradict Simon's assertions that "esthetic" is an incorrect spelling and that "ass-thetic" is the proper pronunciation, he characterizes those who don't follow his preferences as uneducated or worse ("But what would you expect from a pig but a grunt?"). Simon's "discussion" style is more characteristic of a political campaign than of a civilized debate.

[syd]

Van...

 

"So you have a "few PHD's","

 

Not so my friend. If you go back and re-read what I said you would see that I said "among my milieu". That means among my close circle of friends and people with whom I have an association; not myself. My partner is a Phd for one thing and teaches at University. She also happens to work under one of the worlds top Sociologists at her research facility. As a consequence our general circle of contacts are pretty much all professors or Phd's. I'm just a lowly self taught type.

 

Thanks however for the invective, I take it in good humour. ;o)