Brides say the Darndest Things!

[steve_levine]

My wedding shoot of July 10,2004,went off without any problem(or so I

thought).It was a hot,humid typical summer day here in upstate

NY.When I was about 2/3rds of the way through the formals,the bridal

party(the groom),bitched that he wanted to "go f--king party with

their friends".I told the bride nicely that we were not finished,and

she told me not to worry,that she was "sure we'd taken enough

pictures".Flashforward to this week,and the delivery of the proof

album.I promised in my contract XXX number of prints for $XXXX.The

bride calls on my answering machine,and says she recieved the

prints.She doesnt mention being pleased with them,she only mentions

the fact that the shot count is short!I called the bride on the phone

and heard her out.I then recounted the story of the hot wedding

day,and them not wanting to take any more pictures.The bride is now a

pissed off a--hole,and is about to threaten me with legal action.She

apparently wants part of her payment back!I spoke with my atty,and he

says that even though both my assistant and I heard them stop the

formals session.I could still be liable for not delivering what I

promised!What would you do in a simlilar situation?We have already

adjusted the written contract to cover this problem in the future,but

life isnt retro-active.The idea of handing her back a refund for

pictures that "they" wouldnt allow us to shoot,really annoys me.

[austinphoto]

It's not a good idea to promise any amount of prints. You never know what the wedding will be like, as you found out. I never promise any amount because of that. I tell them the amount of proofs will depend on your wedding, The busyier your wedding is, the more that's going on, the more I shoot. But, if you are threatened with a lawsuit, find a nice print of the bathroom and reprint the amount short. You should have an idea of how much you need to shoot and if you find yourself short at a wedding, just keep shooting anything and everything to meet your obligation. I know it sounds rediculous, but you gotta do it. They know not what they say when they are drunk. But when they are sober, they will hold you to your contract. Go back, shoot the bathroom, the floors, the halls, and send her the rest of the prints. This way you meet your obligation and hand the annoyance over to them.

[anner]

I'm sorry you're in that situation- live and learn, right? I offer a few suggestions:

 

1. Offer "x" number of reprints or enlargements to replace the missing prints. This would

certainly bring your print count back to normal and perhaps if they see some images

beautifully enlarged, they may like more done the same way.

 

2. Calculate the cost of the missing film and prints and only refund that amount. The rest

of the money is your time- which is non-refundable.

 

When giving her a refund or a replacement order- make sure you also have her sign a

statement saying that this fulfills your contractual agreement so that no further action can

be taken against you.

 

Good luck Steve,

Anne

[bas1]

Over her to print proof of whatever you edited out to make up to the number. That would be a Pyrus win for her and takes all legal ground for her complaint out.

 

I very much doubt that she'll take you up on it. No matter what, stay polite and professional and explain quality isn't always in quantity. She'll come around.

[httpwww.photpiaimaging.]

Verbal contracts are binding simple as that.

 

You have a witness and it will be a lot of hassle for the client to take you to

court.

 

Unfortunately the customer will lie through their teeth when it comes time to

go to court and then obviousely the judge will have to assess who is the most

credible witness (you or the client).

 

There are some things you can do to protect yourself.

 

Firstly put all contact with the client in writing.

 

I would suggest being a little sneaky here and sending her an email outlining

the events as you see them and suggesting you get together to discus the

matter.

 

If she doesn't dispute your version of events (in writing) then you will have a

much stronger case if it goes to court.

 

If you had confirmed the events imediately after the shoot in writing you would

have been in an even stronger position (lesson to be learned here).

 

The one thing you must do is remain calm and don't let your anger and

frustration show (your interpersonal skills in a situation like this is on of the

main things that sets a pro apart from an ambitious ameteur).

 

You do need to have a fall back position which you would be happy to accept

if the worst came to the worst as the costs in terms of your time and legal fees

could far outway any discount you may give.

 

I know it's galling but in the end it's business and sticking to a moral principal

may not make any sense,

 

Good luck

 

Claire

[jim_gifford]

Steve... she wants more prints for her money, and you want a happy customer who will recommend you (or at least not badmouth you) in the marketplace.

 

So give her more prints until you have supplied the contractually obigated "XXX number of prints for $XXXX." You and the bride can agree -- sweetly -- that you do not have additional negatives from which to work, because she and her brand-new husband called off the photo session to go play at the reception. So give her more prints from the shots you DO have. Give her the best album you can put together from what they let you shoot, plus (just for example) a smaller album she can give to her new mother-in-law, with the total of the two albums equaling your contractual obligation for prints.

 

Honey, not vinegar. Laughter, not lawsuits. You're a professional guy; that is clear from your many posts here. So use your professional charm to TALK with this grouch until she understands that she helped cause the situation that now annoys her... but you and she can come up with a solution that makes both of you happy.

 

Some people just need to complain, and need to be reassured that their complaint is justified, and then they get reasonable again. So if you can listen and be sweet (even if you absolutely disagree on the inside) you can make progress.

 

Are you married?

 

Be well.

[Jerry_]

You need to refund her money (all of it) upon delivery of the proofs to your possession. Then regroup and make up one small album (14 to 20) prints -- 5x7s in size. Arrange a meeting with the bride; and have one or two adults along for your side of what takes place.

 

 

 

 

In the conference, explain that you made a mistake.

 

 

 

 

Explain why you are not going to ask for payment and that she take the 5x7 album from you for her troubles.

 

 

 

 

Then explain that each 'proof' print is available for her purchase, when she calms down, for $xxx per image.

 

 

 

 

 

And if she refers anyone to you, decline the date: her 'friends' will be out to mirror her tactics.

 

 

 

 

 

Keep records for your income tax purposes: if you, in fact, lose money on this wedding, it should not kill your earnings for the year.

[httpwww.photpiaimaging.]

Gerald

 

Why would you even think this let alone advise it??

 

C.

[michelle_campbell]

crop a few differently to provide addtional prints? I have a clause in my contracts about uncontrolable events clause (you can't force the b & G to stay there and take their portraits). I put this in because of a wedding in which the bride was horribly hungover and it showed in the portraits...can't photoshop health and happiness! When I do my interview with the couple I stress that the specific time set up to do the portraits is when their formals will be done and that although we can work with interuptions, they have to be there for them. I also stress that being on time and prepared (hair, flowers, everyone showing up promptly) will assist on getting their portraits done and them out of there to enjoy the rest of their day/party.

That's just what I do.

Meesha

[hugh_jaramillo]

Steve,

 

Two years ago I had a bride who did not want to see the groom prior to the ceremony and they got married at a real nice venue, by the time the ceremony was done it was dark and the venue was of no value as a backdrop, guess who got blame for the lack of pictures, me and the groom, because he was the one who actually didn't want to see each other.

 

My solution was to offer a make session on a nice day, they took advantage of that the situation was solve.

 

Now you are not in the same situation but my advice will be to offer them the opportunity to do a make-up session, chances are that they will not take you up on it, but your willingness to work with them will go a long way in terms of goodwill and it will help you diffuse a bad situation.

[casey mcallister]

Tell her like it is...but remain calm, collected and nice!

 

This business can be frustrating...I'm chasing a bride for $400 bucks. Three invoices and two telephone calls...no cash yet!

[steve_levine]

What I did today was something I normally dont do.I mailed her the double prints(when I shoot group shots,I always dbl shoot in case of blinks).I also gave her about a dozen "garbage" shots,which normally get tossed,things like flash misfires,blinks and a couple very unflattering shots of both of them(LOL).The night of the wedding,I continually asked them after they cooled off, to go back out for a few shots.They were by now both feeling little pain,and I was probably bothering them.I never argue with clients,but I would never return monies after we went and busted our butts for 10 hours!It was also hot & humid for us that day,but we didnt whine to anyone about it.The bride is being a jerk in this case,less than 20% of the shot count was missing,out of several hundred exposures!I doubt it will come to court,especially now that Ive sent her the appropriate number of prints.As I said,the contract has been altered slightly,and I will now discuss this issue briefly in my sales meetings with brides.Thanks for everyone's suggestions!As always I want to "do the right thing".

[johnny_tergo]

I absolutely LOVE Abe's suggestion! Although it would do absolutely nothing in your favor you got to love the thought of it. Anyway, I hope that your offer will get accepted and that will be the end of it. You got to wonder if the bride is un-happy with the lack of photos in her possession, or the lack of love in her new marriage... OUCH!! Sorry sorry I'm being bad

[James G. Dainis]

Probably in the back of her mind (or even up front) was the thought that if she shortened the photo session, she would save money. "I get to party with my friends, and since there are less photos it will cost less." Just one thing to keep in mind while dealing with this.

[huey_stevens]

Steve

 

I can certainly relate to your situation. The guy I work for has just this sort of contract, i.e so many pictures per album; and refuses to place in his contracts that we are not responsible for their unexpected change of agreed to plans.

 

I agree with Abe,Anne and Jim on how to correct the situation. Although people have commented on Gerald's post, my thoughts are more in line with his. Claire has some very valid points. I have heard just the sort of suggestions that Claire has put forth but Sam Erkonen. Sam is the Professional Photographers of America Attorney for the Idemnification Trust program. When you are a member, and select 'Wedding' as a specialty, you automatically pay an extra $70 per year for the insurance and legal representation.

 

Sam told us stories about how there is that 10% that JUST DON'T GO AWAY! Meaning they just keep pushing and pushing. He also told us stories about burying figuratively cases like this. The PP of A does not pussy foot around, and Sam is the best at his game. He also briefed us that Verbal and Email are VERY BINDING. Apparently Clinton passed a commerce law that made email a legally binding contractual vehicle.

 

I know you have a witness, and this is good news, but I suggest as others have that you try your best to satisfy the client, which is what Sam suggests also because that's the first thing he asks of the client 'What do you want?'. ANYTIME I get together with clients professionally at and post conract I WRITE DOWN EVERYTHING AND GET INITIALS OR SIGNATURES. You can not imagine the amnesia these people will have latter and say that they didn't understand. What don't you understand about being ready at the time you signed off on for photo's? But they'll hem and haw and swear by dieties that they didn't understand. Your bride knew EXACTLY what she was doing after you briefed her, and she still decided to act or behave in the negative, again she knew EXACTLY what she was doing.

 

IF her demands are unreasonable, and you stand to suffer loss of wages and profit, DON'T LET HER PUSH YOU AROUND! Sam Erkonen the Attorney speaks from experience, NEVER let a client push you around. It sets a bad precedent, and they will descend upon you like vultures. DO NOT take in clients of this Bride, they are like minded vultures.

 

I wrote in a previous post that is no longer shown in the stack that I wonder how we as a group market too, and find this variety of flakes. If they want to party, perhaps another round of alcohol will grease the wheels of this client in the future.

 

In closing Steve I truly enjoy reading your posts, as others have said you are a true professional. Best of luck my friend, I really do feel for you since I've been put in this situation once before. When I look at it as a whole, only 1 client of more than a hundred will pull something like this.

 

Hope this helps - Hugh

[belledeux diana]

Steve, I also value yourcomments on the forums, but I hope you don't mind.....I think this was a matter of being distracted on your part...maybe it was the heat, but that doesn't count we know.....I used to pity the gas pump men in the old days along I-80 in the winter, but they knew it was coming!

<P>

I think you just didn't think, or overlooked your part of the bargain....those XXX number of prints. "...she only mentions the count was short....." I think that's all she was mentioning. Probably still under the influence of a hangover, but still, she can count.

<P>

I would have sent the xxx number of prints right away, trying as best I could not to undermind myself with bad shots, and yes, I might have cropped a photo, and even printed it black and white, or even flipped it, to make it seem like another shot to save sending a bad shot.

<P>

"The idea of handing her back a refund for pictures that "they" wouldnt allow us to shoot,really annoys me." But according to you, it was only the count she mentioned. And that was fair enough. What caused her to actually count the photos is curious, except, she might have had nothing better to do while she had that second cup of coffee on the veranda. But still, it was in the contract.

<P>

When I can, I like to maintain the attitude Jim ,Gifford suggests, but again....he said," until she understands that she helped cause the situation that now annoys her..."....she didn't help cause anything really. She just can count, and I think that was all she was after.

<P>

~

<P>

....and the heat...well, again...I have enjoyed the upper NY State heat once or twice myself. Have you tried our dripping wet Louisiana summers?

[adrian_morgan]

Keep in mind there are 2 parties in this discussion. The bride bviously feels hard done by, and you do as well. Email her as others have suggested, outling the events as you saw them. Then ask her what she would like to happen from here. That way she can reply to your email and see if she disagrees with your view of the events.

 

The last thing you want is to end up in court over this as it will be bad publicity for you. Work out some sort of agreement in writing that both of you are happy with. If you make a small loss on this wedding, chalk it up to experience, annd learn from it. Maybe it means changing what you promise the clients. maybe it means adding another clause to protect you in case this happens again.

[thomas_wakefield]

It is an interesting point that you blame the short count on the formals being cut short. I am assuming you were there for the whole day and shot the whole reception, if this is incorrect skip my post.

 

If the formals were cut short, then you should have had more time at the reception. And the reception is where we get in the most trouble at my company for abusing our film count. So unless your entire shooting day was cut short because of the formals stoping early, i don't see how you can blame that for your short count. If you still had the same X hours that you were working, you should have been able to get to your expected proof count. You should have known you were a little short going into the reception, and should have maybe shot a little extra just to be on the safe side.

 

We state in our contract 500 proofs (with a stuff happens clause), but we have never given a bride and groom less than 600, and we average closer to 7-800 proofs.

[kevin m.]

You promised her xxx number of prints in your contract, and you didn't deliver. Since the groom wanted to "go party," that would have been a golden opportunity to take a few more candids to make up for the difference in missed formals. Now you're calling the bride names over an internet forum. Just playing devil's advocate here, but are you sure she's the only one at fault? ;-)