help

[matt_m__toronto_]

I'm going to be getting into an mf package soon, and I have a couple

of questions. I'm a 35mm user now, with a pretty good Nikon package,

but I want to get some serious toys now, so please bare with me, as

I'm still learning about mf.

 

1. is there such a thing as a 6x17 back for a normal 6x6 camera? I'm

interested in panoramics, but cant afford a separate camera like a

fuji 617 just for this style of shooting. If there is, what brand is

it for?

 

2. I know that for LF photography, a polaroid back is golden. How

often do you guys use these if at all??

 

3. with these two points in mind, what system could you suggest for

me to get. I've been advised to go Hassie, Rollei, Pentax, Bronica,

and everything else under the sun. I'm more into lenses than bodies.

Which system is easier to outfit with good lenses?

 

Thanks for any help.

 

matt (sitting here twiddling my thumbs) marek

[leo]

1 - No , that would be physically impossible on a 6 x 6 camera .

To get 6 x 17 ( or 12 ) , you need either a large format camera or

a specialized panoramic camera . You can go up to 6 x 9 with

some older med. format cameras .

 

2- LF or MF ? It depends on what you need with it . Ideally , it

would be used to check lighting conditions before using any film

. Of course you can use it as a final medium ( i.e., polaroid

transfer ) , but that gets expensive quickly

 

3- Again , what do you need from the camera ? Should it be

portable , have cheap accessories ? Also which format do you

want , 6 x 4.5 , 6 x6 , 6 x 7 or 6 x 8 ?There are a lot of questions

that only you can answer . And here is a link that should help you

do just that :

http://people.smu.edu/rmonagha/mf/cameras.html

[art_haykin]

The above is absolutely correct. Still, you've mentioned just about everything except what kind of shooting(s) you are most interested in.

[oliver_sharp1]

If you are doing complex studio lighting setups, a Polaroid back is a wonderful tool. If you are outside shooting landscapes, get a good spot meter and learn how to use it - you really don't need Polaroids at all unless you are choosing them as an artistic medium with unique characteristics. Polaroids are most useful when you can't see the light that you will be using (i.e. flash) and when you are doing extremely painstaking work where any issue with the image can make it unusable (i.e. commercial shots). I do quite a bit of shooting in the studio and would never buy a medium format camera without a Polaroid back, but outside the studio I almost never use one.

[david_henderson]

The image circle on MF lenses isn't big enough to produce a 6 x 17 image. That's why no-one makes 6x 17 backs.

 

I agree that a Polaroid back isn't necessary foe outdoor work - and indeed they can be counter productive if the light changes. If you're uncertain about the light, then bracket.

 

Just about all MF systems offer very good lenses. The best lenses I've come across in MF are for the Mamiya 7 rangefinder - but rangefinders aren't great for all applications. You need first to decide what format you want to shoot - 67? 66? 645? 69? and this will cut down the brand options. Buying used will cut down the cost of a comprehensive lens selection, and reduce the finacial risk of making the wrong initial brand choice.

 

You can get a perfectly decent panoramic print up to say 20" x 8" by composing for this within the standard MF frame and cropping. If you use a drum scan and LightJet then you'll get bigger than this. I like panoramics too, but I'm not prepared to buy or carry a dedicated panoramic camera for the small minority of occasions when what I want to photograph suits that format.

[kevin_ing]

I guess I'm a lens junkie and I like having a lot of lenses to use.

 

Depending on how you feel about working with a temperamental camera body (and the stigma that goes with it), I have to say that the Kiev 60 or 88CM is the easiest body to outfit with a BIG range of lenses for very little money.

 

For under $2000 total, I have 30mm fisheye, 45mm, 50mm, 65mm, 80mm, 120mm, 150mm, 180mm, 250mm, 300mm, and a nice camera body with several film backs and a prism at my disposal. My 88CM has a few quirks, which is typical of Kievs... but the quirks are minor and haven't interfered with its ability to take great photos for about one year and close to 300 rolls of film so far.

 

By comparison, for $2000 I got a Bronica SQ-A, two film backs, AE prism finder, 80mm lens, and 50mm lens. It took quite a bit more to add my other lenses and accessories. Sure, I feel a lot better about the Bronica's reliability than my Kiev's... but my Kiev hasn't really let me down yet, I have a LOT more lenses to play with, and its pictures are every bit as good as the ones done by my Bronica.

 

If you prefer 6x4.5 and don't want to put up with a Kiev's potential problems, you might consider a Mamiya 645 or Pentax 645. If you cannot afford all the Mamiya or Pentax glass you want, it is possible to use the Kiev and Carl Zeiss Jena (for Pentacon 6) lenses on these cameras via an adapter. You will have to use them with completely manual apertures though since there is no coupling to the body for aperture control when using the adapter.

 

One of the nice things about the Kiev and CZJ lenses (especially the latter) is that you can buy them, try them out, and sell them at very little to no loss if you don't need them anymore. The CZJ lenses are only available used, and tend to hold their value quite well.

[bros]

I'll double what Kevin said and add the following - if you add some $400 to a body you can have great HARTBLEI/KievCamera rebuilt Kiev wich would be much more smooth and reliable then original Kievs.

[matt_m__toronto_]

Thanks for all the great replies.

 

In response to a couple of questions up there, I'm a photographer that just likes to shoot. Portraits, landscapes, experimental, nature...you name it. I don't spend really any time in studios, so a polaroid back will probably not be economically justifiable, so thanks for clearing that up.

 

I guess now I've got to decide between 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7 and 6x8. Any pros cons? THings to look out for?

 

Thanks a lot guys.

 

Matt

[mikolaip]

For "things to look out for" in terms of MF formats, I'd suggest that you hit on the link "Formats" below on this forum, among other Archives. The number of threads (134, just checked), posts, and viewpoints will give you loads of good info and make you busy for a looooooong time. Filter this through YOUR frame of reference. Good luck!

[garvey_p]

I'm curious as to what kind of budget you have in mind? For me, budget always affects what I buy (not just photo gear), which allows me to focus on the essential elements I want and worry less about the bells and whistles (in most cases).

[matt_m__toronto_]

Budget...around 2k.

 

matt

[garvey_p]

From a purely economic standpoint, you can get the most glass within your budget if you go the new Mamiya route, IMO, since they have a $500 rebate promo. For example, you could get a 645E with 80/2.8, 45/3.5 (or 35/3.5 or 55/2.8), and a 150/3.5 (or 210/4) within your budget. Depending on which lenses, the entire kit would run as little as $1700 or as much as $2150 after the rebate. And the lenses are useable with other new Mamiya 645's (non-AF) in case you ever wanted a different body.

 

Of course, there are a million permutations of camera types, brands, and styles to choose from. I only posted this because I went through the buying process a while back and took a good look at the Mamiya gear. I ended up going with a P645N instead, but I had the money at the time to do so. My P645N kit (body w/ standard lens, 45 FA and old style non-AF 150mm) ran me about 50% more than your current budget, but I have no regrets whatsoever.

 

HTH,

Garvey

[lucas_griego]

Matt,

Just a few thoughts for you.

 

I shoot medium format for a lot of different things both for work

and just for fun.

If you doing any kind of commercial work - get the Polaroid back.

You'll need it. It's often your key to client approvals! ;-)

 

If not - skip it. It's not the price of the back that kills ya... it's how

much Polaroid you burn through. Like most things it's the

expendables that burn up the budget.

 

I shoot on a Mamiya RZ67 Pro II

Mamiya offers tons of accessories - lens and everything else.

It's worth checking them out. If you want lots of portability, similar

to a 35mm camera - check out the Mamiya 645.

 

Good luck,

Luc

[matt_m__toronto_]

Well, things are getting more clear and interesting, so I thank all of thee.

 

There is a Hassie 500C with 80mm lens in town. Now, I've heard of the 500C having a dim viewing prism, but other than that, any reason to not get this outfit? Providing all works well, what would be a reasonable price to get this at?

 

Oh and to add detail to some questions, I need to be able to do hand held portraiture work, as I love just walking around with a camera. Because of this, I think cameras like the RZ67 are out. I also want more neg room, so I'm not to keen on a 645.

 

So...500C with 80mm lens. On top of that I'd need a 50mm and a portrait lens. Any suggestions?

 

Thanks guys.

[leo]

Rent a hasselblad first ( better a 500c/m than a 500c because you don't need tools to change the focusing screen ) . For all you know , you may find med format cameras too bulky and go back to 35mm . Shoot some film and get a feel for it . Better to lose a $100 than $2000 . And if you do buy , get only one lens at first .

[bob_chong]

Sounds like you're into ancient cameras. If you want to go 6x6 and are really into lenses, have you read up on the Bronica S2A?

[leo]

Just don't get a kiev !

[david_goldfarb]

I'll also recommend the Bronica S2A as a reliable older manual camera with lots of affordable lenses (Nikkor, Zenzanon, Komura and others) and interesting accessories. Info at:

 

http://people.smu.edu/rmonagha/bronica.html

 

A Hassy 500 C/M is a great camera and can be quite affordable until you want to add your second lens, third back, etc.

[wayne_scott]

Well, since you can't get 6x17 and probably won't use polaroid back how about a Mamiya C220 or C330 TLR? These will give you 6x6 format ability to use 120 or 220 film, flash synch at all shutter speeds, several lens to choose from, they are heavy and built like a tank. It is how I started in meduim format for a small amount of money, I was able to use this system for a year and then sell it for very near what I paid for it in beginning.

I found that I like my Bronica ETR system better than the TLR. But then that's just my opinion.

 

Good Luck!

[matt_m__toronto_]

I've sourced out two Bronica S2A's w/ 75mm nikon lens. They are both in the field of $300-350. Is this the right amount to be paid for this outfit?

 

And, thanks to those who suggested this camera to me. I hope that it is a camera that I can grow into and not one that I'll have to replace in a year to "upgrade." Also, I believe that lenses are quite easy to find for this system yes?

 

Thanks for all your help.

[kevin_ing]

Matt,

 

The Hasselblad 500C is a nice camera and usually works well if not abused. It'll be pretty old though, so you might want to send it in for cleaning-lubrication-adjustment (CLA).

 

My problem with Hasselblad, and the reason why I have never bought one myself despite having used them at work many years ago and admiring their charm, is because I can afford a basic kit (body, lens, back) but nothing more. Take a look at Hasselblad lens prices... even used lens prices. Your $2K budget will not go very far.

 

Like I said, I'm a lens junkie and I like to have a LOT of lenses at my disposal. Kievs are the cheapest when it comes to good lenses for not a lot of money. I always warn people about the potential problems though (check my web site if you want -- click on my name below) and don't recomend them to all people. But when they work (and mine work), they can take great photos. I've been using mine for close to 2 years now (almost 1 year on my 88CM that I mentioned earlier) and I am 99% happy with them. A lot of people will tell you Kievs s*ck, but I've prizes in a few photo contests with mine now and no one seems to mind what camera I used.

 

Okay... If you're not too keen on 645, you might not be a whole lot better with 6x6 since most 6x6 film gets cropped to 645 when printed anyway. If you're into displaying prints, you next best step up from 645 is 6x7 where you *will* get a noticable advantage from film area. Although I haven' tried one myself, I hear the Bronica GS-1 is a lot easier to handhold than the Mamiya RB/RZ -- and I believe that with its Speed Grip, it is similar to my SQ-A's which *are* easy to handhold.

 

I personally like and shoot 6x6 because I usually visualize vertical images and hate turning the camera on its side.

 

If you change your mind about 645, you do have some nice choices. The older Mamiya M645's are reasonably priced and solid performers. The Pentax 645 operates a lot like a big 35mm and it's easy to burn film through it. I have both and think they both have their place -- the Mamiya for modularity, the Pentax for speed. The newer Mamiya 645 Super and Pro (not E) are also modular but offer greater speed than their older M645 brethren... at greater $$$ cost. If you need leaf shutters for outdoor fill-flash work, you might want to look at the Bronica ETR series for 645.

 

Lots of choices... but no camera is right for all people, which is why you hear so many different views on what to get. Like another responder posted earlier, you might want to rent or borrow a few cameras and try them out first before making your purchase decision. Camera clubs are a great way to meet people using all kinds of equipment... even if you someone won't let you borrow their camera, they might pull it out and let you play with it for a little while so you can see if you like it.

 

Good luck with your decision.

[kevin_ing]

Bronica S2A...<P>

 

Please check Robert Monaghan's site (his local Bronica megasite) for LOTS of information about the older, classic Bronicas -- before you spend your money.<P>

 

I also have a Bronica S2A and it is a nice camera. But be warned:<P>

 

- It IS loud and not good for certain kinds of unobtrusive photography.<BR>

- Accessories are not easy to come by (film backs, prisms, extension tubes, Polaroid backs... should you ever decide you want one, etc.)<BR>

- Lenses are not rare, but not quite as abundant as with many other systems... You should be able to get a basic 50mm, 75mm, 150mm (or 200mm) set quite easily. Other lengths will be a bit harder to find.<BR>

- The camera is heavy, and even with a side grip it is not something you'll want to handhold for long.<BR>

- The cameras are all pretty old and parts are no longer available except from donor cameras.<P>

 

I like my S2A and don't think I'd ever sell it... but to me is more of a collector's piece than a viable user.<P>

 

At least if you buy it and decide you don't like it, you can sell it again and not take much of a loss... it has already depreciated most of the way.<P>

[kelvin lee]

hi matt

 

You didn't mention a budget.

 

Anyway, If you're on a tight budget, with the recent fall in prices... the hassys aren't really too bad on the used market.

 

That said, take a look at the new Year 2001/02 Kiev88 CM. They have been substantially improved over the previous years as Arsenal has been listening to user complaints and has been tweaking production. This model features a side-slanted release , which the previous years don't (so that's how you tell from a photo).

 

Mike of Kievcamera has them.

 

These Kievs will take all the Meyer Pentacon P6 and Zeiss Jena P6, as well as the cheaper Kiev lenses themselves. Look for Roskam Optics in the Netherlands, he sells in Euros (not USD!) so it's cheaper, and he overhauls all the E.bloc lenses to ensure they are in good condition - new or used lenses.

 

Other alternatives on a budget include Bronica ETRS 6x45, which is surprisingly cheap these days.

 

Another alternative is the Pentax 6x7 SLR type system.. .but the vibration can be a problem. However, the optics are excellent.. .and I've noticed an approx. 20% drop across the board on prices in recent months.

 

The Bronica GS is what I use, and my needs are limited ... that's why I stayed away from Mamiya RZ. For what I paid (US$2500), I got 2 bodies, 3 filmbacks, polaroid back , speedgrip, prism and 4 lenses...

on the used market.

 

To answer your Q. about 6x17... no. The longer the ratio on the filmback, the harder it is to get perfect film flatness...hence, you don't find it usually. KMZ in Russia are now making a medium format version of their Horizon camera ... but this is very expensive.

[matt_m__toronto_]

WOW!

You guys are giving me way too much to think about (I love it!) I've been on the net for about 4 hours today looking and researching, and now I must go to bed, as I must work tomorrow.

 

I really like the the Bronica GS1 suggestion. The S2A is still an option. I also found a couple of 645 cam's, but I like the idea of having the extra neg space on shots where I wouldn't crop down. 6x7 is also an option, but I'm then getting into heavier cameras, and I don't think many of them have waist level viewing...do they?

 

Anyways, your comments have been golden! I thank you all very much.

 

Haven't sourced a GS1 in my area yet, but I'll get to that tomorrow night or Monday.

 

Matt zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[matt_m__toronto_]

Ok...I'm back.

 

I've found me a Bronica C camera for about $350. I haven't got it yet though. I wanted to pass this one through you guys first. I know that the back is pemanent, but it will take either 120 or 220. There are 4 nikkor lenses available. I am fine with this. It is loud. I am fine with this. It is also; so I hear, very rugged and simple.

 

I would appreciate very much any comments re: this system.

 

Thank you all.

 

Matt