Red Flags - when to NOT take a wedding

[think27]

Just had an interesting experience. <p>Aug. 9 or so - saw a

potential bride. She had scheduled an initial meeting which she

canceled ...because she had vertigo...and she did make her second

meeting. <p>August 15, sent her an e-mail explaining that as my

policy is first come first serve - the date was in jeopardy as

someone else was inquiring about the date and if she wanted to book

with me she needed to send a check right away. <p>August 16, she e-

mailed... "The check is in the mail" and "can you shoot the 7 hour

wedding at the 6 hour price." I said no but offered to lower the

price by $300 and subsitute a lesser companion album than offered in

the 7 hour package. <p>August 23 - no check. E-mailed her and

suggested it may be lost in mail. She agreed to send another check.

<p>August 26 through e-mail we made arrangements to meet Sept. 9 to

see her property... Mentioned that I did not get the check yet and

would be out of town "tomorrow" through Sept. 1. and that the check

would probably be in my possession when I arrived back in town. Two

emails clearly stated that I would be back Sept. 1. <p>Sept. 1. No

check. I email her and she claims she thought I was out of town

and "dropped the ball". I explained that I had another couple

waiting and reminded her the policy is first come first serve and

that she would need to FedEX a check that very day to arrive the

following day. <p>She called me back with "questions". She wanted

the negatives since she was going to go with the full 7-hour

package. I explained I need to control the final quality. She could

have the negatives after the order was complete. She then asked if

she could "buy" the negative instead. I told her she could after 4

years. She agreed to go with my terms but I smelled future

problems. She raised other normal mundane contract questions.

After a somewhat tough discussion she agreed. It was almost like she

was trying to "find" problems. <p>She then stated that she doesn't

use checks and they were somewhere in the basement. Her fiancee

didn't have checks either. They would FedEx the next day instead

of "today". I agreed. <p>I thought about it after I hung up and I

was seeing red flags all over the place. Maybe it is just my

experience but this just doesn't happen when I book weddings. My

clients always walk away happy and excited and checks come right away

because they are afraid they'll lose the date etc.. If they have

issues with negatives they raise that before the booking not after.

Further...She had that contract in her hands since August 16. <p>I

decided to tell her I was going with the other couple because they

were promised the deadline of Thursday... Friday was too late.

<p>Frankly, I was concerned that not only would the check not arrive

on Friday .... But that this was a can of worms and it would end up

being one problem after another. <p>Would anyone have made the same

decision -- Not to do this wedding?

[eric friedemann]

"Would anyone have made the same decision -- Not to do this wedding?"

 

Yes, but I would have reached the decision by August 23rd at the latest. I don't expect potential clients to kiss my hind quarters, but they must exhibit a minimum level of honesty and integrity.

 

On occasion, I run into people who are both a. very, very demanding; and b. very, very cheap. This is not a combination of attributes I admire in potential clients, and I politely indicate that I would not be interested in working for them.

[eric friedemann]

BTW, Mary, your post was good and interesting.

[jbq]

I honestly don't envy your business. Sadly the one I'm in (software engineering) is barely better.

[ben_rubinstein___mancheste]

I wouldn't hold your breath....

 

I did a wedding last week that really upset me the way I was treated. They took my budget deal and then on the day demanded every extra, treated me like worse than dirt and were really really obnoxious. Phoned me up yesterday to complain that the photos were'nt ready because they were going abroad earlier than they though, I didn't get them back from the lab till today and certainly hadn't promised them any sooner then next week. G-d knows what complaints they will have about the photos themselves though it was a good set.

 

Apparently I'm not the first photographer in town to have been pissed off by them and they are sure going to get themselves blacklisted if they think they can treat people that way.

 

I have an extra low charity price for poor families which is very much a budget deal, 7 rolls of 36, no album, one set only and this was the deal they took professsing to be very hard up. Fair enough no problem. A month later they call up demanding table shots which i specifically do not do on the budget plan and threatening to drop me if I didn't do them. I was very hard up at the time so had to give in. Then they asked me who was the best video guy in town, this, the people who were so poor they had to get my charity deal. Next time if people are like that before the wedding then I'll cancel. I don't need being screwed over and getting obnoxious people to boot.

[brandonhamilton]

MAry,

 

I think you are more easy going then most! I would of told them "no thanks" MUCH earlier then you did.

 

I had a similar problem last year where the clients didn't sign the contract until ONE week before the wedding!? I only had a couple weddings under my belt, and had absolutly NO booking problems, but if it were me and my wedding, I would of taken care of business MUCH sooner. What if I had signed somebody else that weekend? What are the odds of finding a wedding photographer on a few days notice? Not high I imagine.

 

I just got married this last July 24th, and my photographer had his deposit over a year ago.

[neil_browne1]

I've had a couple of weddings like this. They gave me a bad feeling, but I

booked them anyway. It was these jobs that I regreted taking afterwards.

Some people complain with absolutly no basis, I don't know if it is for financial

reasons, or to compinsate for their other failures in life, but it is always a

nightmare. You did the right thing

[ray]

Follow your gut-feeling Mary. If you're having this much trouble extracting a deposit

before the wedding, imagine how much trouble you will have collecting on the balance.

 

I've had clients exactly like this. Unfortunately, some of those came down to serving a

warrant in debt so I could get paid. Never again -- clients that are hard to work with

before the wedding, become impossible after the event.

[scott_eaton]

Sounds like Mary's bride was getting advice on Photo.Net from amatuers in the film forum :-)

[think27]

Thanks all... Yes, I am very easy going. I gave her more leeway because she seemed so nice and she was very beautiful! I wanted this wedding... <p> Fortunately I don't come across this kind of thing very often and trust me this was not a "cheap" wedding... She was going for the $3500 7- hour package and wanted the 7 hours for $2800. I don't think she's cheap....Just think she felt she was paying more than she wanted to and wanted more for her money. I also get the feeling that her culture is such that they always bargin and negotiate. That's fine but combined with no check... I was not a happy camper. <p>The scary thing is this wedding is for October 9 of this year. (Believe it or not I'm still booking for October. Just booked another for Oct. 10.) I would have thought she'd be very concerned about securing the date asap! <p> After I backed out I offered to help by giving her some referrals.. but she assulted me with numerous rude emails. I returned each one with a very polite response and CC'd her wedding planner. <p>Thanks all for your very wonderful input...!! ;-) I feel MUCH better..

[william_au]

Wow Mary - I think you were more than fair in your handling of the situation. I sure wouldn't want to touch that wedding. It's not like there isn't enough to have to think about at a wedding - a bad rapport right from the get-go and constant worrying about whether or not something else will go wrong later. Were those friends or enemies you referred them on to? :)

[anton frid photography]

Talk about a situation Mary. Listen to this. I scheduled a general meeting with a client. After an hour of being late, a fiancé demands $400 a deposit from me. That will show him that I am committed to them and that i will def show up because they have my money!!! :) I was speechless for few sec, then gathered my strength and punched the guy in the eye. Walked away smiling :)

 

jk

 

I actually politely told him that i am fully committed to doing his wedding, but the conditions will be as follows: he will give me a deposit of $500 and then i show up. He started to give me the "How do we know that you are not going to run with our money...blah blah...We paid our DJ money, and now we cant find him....YOU WILL DO THE SAME" I told him that these are my conditions and that if they feel that they cant trust me, not at problem. Go hire someone else. I lived in NYC, and they could be scamming me right and left. What do I know?

 

Anyway...to make this short, after some nasty looks and loud talks with his girl, they came to conclusion that me and my work is what they wanted :) Weird people! I told them i will get back to them with an answer if i am booked for that day...(because they haven?t told me the day of the wedding before we met). Although i wasn't booked, i told them i was, and thus i cannot accommodate there wishes for there day.

 

I just wish there photographer has some good insurance, because i smell TROUBLE.

 

 

And that?s how business is done in New York :)

 

 

Anton

[steve_levine]

Anytime we get too many un-needed stories from brides,we get the red flags.Especially when they communicate just fine,untill the topic of money is brought up.(if it smells like BS....)

 

The whole "bridezilla" concept is pretty scary too.There are girls out there that will interview 2 dozen photographers!Women that are going to make your life miserable before they book,only get worse during & after the wedding.The ones that are too high maintenance early on,are best sent to your competitors.

[will_perlis]

"She then stated that she doesn't use checks and they were somewhere in the basement. Her fiancee didn't have checks either. "

 

IMO, right here is where you *know* you're too close to the Twilight Zone and should run the other way.

 

The earlier stuff could have been disorganization combined with a bargaining culture and how much of that tolerable is really up to you; this, after all the preceding discussion of checks, is nutty.

[fotografz]

In the ad business it's called right of first refusal. I can tentatively book a hair and make-

up person, prop master or whoever, but if they get an inquiry for that date I have to firm

commit then and there. I follow the same procedure for weddings. They have 24 hours to

get the money into my hands, or the other client gets the date. And I make it clear that the

booking isn't firm until the check clears. But I've never had it happen yet.

[Jerry_]

Next time you get a 'strange' client, have them use the post office's mailing tracking number on the envelope with the check. If the post office has a record of the letter (with the check) being posted, you can track the thing. If the bride can't figure that out, you should have passed on the wedding 'opportunity' after the first check did not arrive in the mail delivery.

 

 

 

 

You would have had a equally 'fun' time trying to get the final payment from the couple after the wedding (my bet.)

[brandonhamilton]

Never accept money AFTER the event. I require full payment well before the wedding.

[c_d5]

If you just don't feel "click" or "connection" with a prospective client, would you still go do their wedding?

[Jerry_]

"If you just don't feel "click" or "connection" with a prospective client, would you still go do their wedding?"

 

 

 

 

No. If the bride (or bride's mom) does not respond well to the idea of a deposit, either party has the right to decline the 'opportunity.' A recent 'booked' wedding was cancelled as I questioned the bride's idea of shooting outside in 90+ degree weather at 3 p.m. -- she only wanted two hours of 'outdoor' photography that was not included in the original plan. She had a family friend that 'offered' to shoot the wedding...my guess is both were cooked in the heat of the afternoon. You win a few and you lose a few.....

[cjogo]

Our first Flag --if they start to bargin.......We excuse ourselves for the date, tell them to "Purchase only what you can afford" and refer them elsewhere. We don't wish to comprise our quality ,,yet the expectant B&G are asking to comprise in price. We guarantee 33 out of 36 on a roll to be well accepted (remember they keep the negatives!) The B&G can trade any image ~ under-exposed, poorly composed, etc. for $25.00 each. If they contest 100 images --we lose $2500 >>> So we can not afford to make a "mistake" in the execution of our photography or the price we command.

http://www.redshift.com/~cjogo/testimonials.htm

[stephen hazelton]

Makes you pity the people they are marrying, does it not?

[think27]

C Jo -- What do you charge that you would even risk losing $2500? Yikes. My 5 hour package is $2500. <p>Anyway, the negative issue for me is different. It isn't about the money that I will make in the slow season from reprints. It is that I want to insure the final prints are the right color/density/contrast. That is my reputation at stake. I've seen three pro labs handle my negatives 3 different ways (did a test) and as far as I was concerned - only one lab did the right job. Unlike many comments I've read here - I don't seem to have any problem with album/reprint orders. In fact, they have increased rather than decreased over the years. I do put a copyright sticker on the back of my prints. <p>What killed me is that she verbally agreed to hire me and had sent the deposit (the one that got lost in the mail) before she even informed me that having the negatives was an issue for her. She was very, very firm and indignent that I wouldn't consider it. <p>I usually show potential customers the samples from the three labs and convince them they should leave the printing to me. You might say I could give the customers the name of the lab and they can send the order to them but my lab won't do that. If I do get a couple that won't hire a photographer unless they get the negatives - I give them a list of names of photographers that do hand them over. That is what I would have done with her if she had been up front. <p> I will sell or give the negatives depending on the size of the order. She finally agreed. But initially, she felt entitled to them because she was going with a higher package and felt that I might pressure her to spend too much money later. She insisted that they were her prints because it was her wedding. I tried to explain copyright and then she made a point to tell me that I could not use the images for self-promotion. It was just one thing after another. I'm relieved this is over because I think we would have had much more tussles in the future about every little thing.

[melanie_wesslock2]

When I meet with potential clients I consider it a "mutual interview". They're interviewing me as well as I them. If a client isn't 100% thrilled about me shooting their wedding, then I won't accept the event. I explain that they'll know when they've met the right photog.

I've had clients ask that I reserve a date for them and will temporarily do so until my deposit arrives. This must be within a reasonable amount of time. I feel that delays in committing to a contract show hesitation and lack of enthusiasm... Neither of which are words I associate with a happy client.

Red flags are worth paying attention to... or you'll be waving a white one trying to get out of the commitment.

[ShunCheung]

On August 16, she indicated that "the check is in the mail" and then a couple of weeks later, she said that they don't use checks and can't find them? I think just that much is already a no brainer.

 

Meanwhile, you have another couple waiting for that same date? It is indeed a no brainer.

[cjogo]

Good professional and practical policies here Mary, Melanie, et all. Mary we are nearly the same price -- we just had a lot of competition last year. ANd since we rarely meet with a client-----the website, recommendations from the venue and years of integrity >> are all we can deliver on that first phone contact. So we really have to watch the Red Flags--and sell the clients. WIth that guarantee policy...we secure a few more.