table or rule of thumb for shutterspeed for sharp picture?

[poulbh]

When playing with my 17-40 on a 10D with extreme wide angle pictures

such as a horse riding by about 1 meter away, I have trouble getting

the pictures sharp (not to mention when i try the same with

motorbikes).

Of course the unsharpness can be one of, or a combination of focus,

movement and shutterspeed, but I haven't worked out which one it is

yet.

The autofocus or AI servo doesn't work because the horses head moves

from the middle to the extreme edge, where there is no focus point.

I then tried to set focus and aperture for a fixed DOF but didn't

have any DOF table, so even a 17mm can be unsharp.

Now the question: to eliminate one of the factors, is there a table

of minimum shutterspeed versus distance and speed of the motive,

where the motive will look sharp to the human eye ?

An additional problem is the light and the lack of dynamical range of

a digi camera, when photographing a dark horse against the sky!

Yes I know, excuses, excuses! but I am trying, and will get there

some day.

More training will of course make me better, but where to find all

the horses? I am thinking of placing myself in a roadsection downtown

and take photographs of the cars for training, but am a little afraid

what the drivers might think, and do! :o))

[b_christopher]

It seems that you're thinking too much into this. Most photographers under such situations would pan with the subject.

[phil vaughan - yorkshire u]

You are making this very complicated, so I'll attempt to simplify.

 

1, Shutterspeed- should be the inverse of the focal length, ie 200mm 1/250th second. This will help with camera shake, however a good grip / technique is important. Elbows in and feet apart, support the lens with the palm of your left hand.

 

2, Focus- either using AI Servo (centre focus point) then track the subject by panning, then shoot at the desired position. OR Focus on the position you'll take the shot in, switch lens to MF then pan with the motorbike/horse, shooting at the desired point.

 

3, Practice the above

 

4, Practice the above

 

5, Practice the above

[eric merrill]

Poul:

 

<p>

Sharp isn't always better: <a href="http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0408/butler_intro.html">http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0408/butler_intro.html</a>

 

<p>

This set really inspires me. Poetic, if photos are allowed to be.

 

<p>

That said, sharpness is relative. There's sharp for 4x6, and then there's sharp for 11x14. You'll need faster shutter speeds for bigger enlargements. You'll need faster shutter speeds when you're closer to the subject. You'll need faster shutter speeds when the subject is moving across the frame (as opposed to moving toward or away from you.) I'd start off at 1/500th for a wide to normal lens for a close subject moving at a quick speed and then fine tune from there.

 

<p>

--<br>

Eric<br>

<a href="http://www.merrillphotography.com/">Sioux Falls Portrait Photographer</a><br>

[lynne_glazer]

JMO. As regards horses. Unless you are trying for distortion, you will be unhappy with

the results even if you get the sharpness handled.

 

Try a 70-200mm, towards the long end.

 

Lynne

pro equine photographer

http://www.lynnesite.com

[brendan_dowling]

...generally require fast shutter speeds. The exact speed required would be dependant on how fast the subject is moving accross the field of view (note if the subject is moving toward/away from you, they're not moving as fast across the frame). Try to get as fast a shutter speed as you can. If you need a high ISO, use it. If you need a wide aperture (f/2 or so), use it.

[ian_hobday]

I was thinking the same thing as Lynne. 17mm + 1m away from a horse = Very funky looking warped horse.<br>

<br>

Stoping the motion of the horse shouldn't be that hard unless you are working in very low light. A shutter speed of 1/500 or even 1/250 will be more than enough. If the light is low, move the ISO up to 400. Even 800 is not too bad on the 10D.<br>

<br>

A motorbike is likely to be moving faster than the horse, so try using a higher shutter speed. Just experiment and see what works.<br>

<br>

If you'd like more feedback about the likely cause of the unsharpness in your horse photos, why not post a sample here so we can take a look?<br>

<br>

Ian<br>

--<br>

Ian Hobday<br>

Osaka, Japan<br>

<a href="http://hobday.net/photos" target="_blank">http://hobday.net/photos</a> (Opens in a new window.)

[sheldonnalos]

Poul -

 

There are two types of movement to consider when taking a photo. The first is camera motion, which is realatively subtle. The rule of thumb for stopping camera shake is to shoot with a shutter speed that is faster than 1/focal length of the lens you are using. For example... 50mm = 1/50 sec or faster, 600mm = 1/600 sec or faster.

 

The second type of movement is subject movement, which can vary greatly. The basic thing to consider is how the subject moves relative in the frame of the viewfinder. If a subject is coming at you at 10mph, it will grow in size in the viewfinder at a relatively moderate rate (until that last second when it runs you over!). If your subject is moving laterally to you, i.e. a horse passing by you 1 meter away and moving at 10mph, it will pass through the viewfinder in a very short time. A faster shutter speed is required to freeze this action.

 

Here's a set of suggested shutter speeds for a moving horse at a gallop (taken from the New Manual of Photography by John Hedgecoe):

 

Horse coming toward camera - 1/500 sec

 

Horse moving across the frame - 1/2000 sec

 

Horse moving diagonally (45 degrees) toward camera - 1/1000

 

You also raised the point about exposure problems photographing a dark horse against a bright sky. Flash can help illuminate the horse, and in certain situations it also can help freeze the action since a flash burst is normally very short (can be as short as 1/10,000 sec). However, since you will be using a fast shutter speed in daylight photography, there are other flash issues to consider. The popup flash on your camera will not work for this, since it is limited to the "sync" speed of your camera's shutter (the shortest possible time where the whole shutter is open at once, usually 1/200 or 1/250; anything faster than this is accomplished by exposing only part of the frame at any given time). The way to get flash speeds above the "sync" speed of your camera is to use a larger flash unit that has "focal plane" flash or "high speed sync" flash. It works by pulsing the flash at a very high rate, so that the whole image is properly exposed by the flash, even if the shutter is not open all at once. The common flashes in the Canon lineup that can accomplish this are the 420EX, 550EX and the soon to be released 580EX. Focal plane flash will not help you freeze the action any more than the shutter speed will, since it is pulsing the entire time the shutter is opening.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Sheldon

[poulbh]

Sorry that I didn't post examples, but most of the pictures were deleted in disappointment. I will lokk for some. I do use a 420EX but am strugling a little to exploit all the possibilities and avoid some of the auto functions of the flash. I just bought a 550EX and a ST-E2, so should be well equipped on the flash front.

I know the big horse, 17mm lens, 1 meter away, sounds a little strange, but I don't try to make pictures for little girls walls, but try to find unusual perspectives and the 17-40 is new, so it should be exploited to its extremes. I would like to catch a horse in that perspective with flaring nostrils and white eyes !<div></div>

[poulbh]

The best of my MC pictures, still focus is on his behind, AI servo couldn't follow. It can probably be saved with some unsharpening.<div></div>

[jim_larson1]

I won't even start to go into the flash issues.

 

I think one thing you may not be appreciating is how shallow depth of field can be. At F9 and 17mm, DOF is only 52 inches (http://www.outsight.com/hyperfocal.html) and a fair bit of that will be IN FRONT of the focus point.

 

I must admit that I don't use AI servo that much. But have you tried just straight One Shot? I would think that would work for the horse. For the motor cross. . .can you get to a spot where there is not so much high speed front-back movement as what you are doing?

[yvonne_blume]

Just one small point - you can't use flash when shooting the horse. Not unless you want to freak the horse out and get the rider to punch you.

[poulbh]

About flash and horse: I did some experiments at the stables, where the horses were looking out the door and they didn't react at all to the flash. I also talked to one of the judges at the competition and he confirmed that I could use the flash. He said it would only bother them in darker conditions, f.eks. indoors. One of the riders did comment (I was 1-1 1/2 meters away :o)) but people are very tolerant towards you, if your camera is big enough.

I think i have to try a fixed manual focus and then also think more about the DOF, when I'm that close. In my joy over the new wide angle lens, I expected too much.

[dave_nelson___atlanta__ga]

I think a higher ISO (400 or higher), smaller appeture (at least 8.0), and faster shutter speed will result in the type of pictures you are looking for, both for the horses and for the bikes. Although, on the bikes you may want to slow the shutter speed down a bit to get more background blur.

[poulbh]

I was trying to get bacgground blur on the MC pictures, but I'm about 2 meters away and have to pan very fast to catch the bike, which means a lot of camera movement, so to make the bike sharp I think I have to use a fast shutter and then I don't get background blur. I have seen these pictures with speedblur in the background, but I suspect they are taken with a tele, from some distance at an angle of 90degrees. Where I was standing, the initial speed is very low (when the bike is coming at me) but changes to very fast, just as it passes.

I might just have to go down on the corner, and fill my 4gb microdisk with pictures of passing cars :o)