nikolo5 Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Good day, every one! Well, Im amateur, try to develop myself in photography, and dont try to follow stupid market features... So I know the power and flexibility of the cameras like EOS 10D and 20D, I also know, that I will never experience the "wasting film headache" with them. I like them (or just like the manuals I've read :)) cause they are really close to professional ones and so on. But the features like crop factors(!), the lack of point metering, dimmer (?) viewfinders are really make me thinking... Now I have EOS 30. WHAT IF EOS 3 would be next? I mean I'll forget about the pleasures or ("pleasures" ?) working with digital and simply get the top notch gear? The advantages I see for now are:0. Point/multipoint metering!1. f/4 autofocus limit for cross-type sensors and f/8 -- for afutofocus ability itself.2. Bright and 97% viewfinder3. Wheather sealed (I was really wondered when I feel I need it!)4. Multiexposures and really long damn bulbs (unlike digitals).5. Eye control autofocus (which I like very much since I have EOS 30 :) ) SO PLEASE GIVE ME REASONABLE PROS AND CONTRAS. (in case of digital I'd rather buy the 20D) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
working with attitude sin Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 The learning curve is 10x more fast with digital. Immediate feedback is priceless for learn. Also you can look in high resolution on your computer and notice a lot of stuff who will not appear on 35mm print. But even with that, i still have butterflies in stomach each time i see a good priced eos 3 on ebay! If you choose the 20D, i dont think you will regret it. I had so much pictures of my trips in japan who are full of promises but was not taked in the good way at that moment. With 20D, you can see those promises and correct them on the field! good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isaac sibson Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Given the camera you're coming from, I'd go with the 10D/20D. I currently own a D30 and EOS 3, and want a 1dII or 1Ds(or II). I couldn't give up the speed of the 3, but since you're coming from the 30 you wouldn't miss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitmstr Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Get the 20D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil vaughan - yorkshire u Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 You won't miss the better viewfinder, or spot metering, because you don't have them now. You might miss the ECF, I know because I went from the 30 to the 300d. I will get a 20d when I've saved up. I would prefer an EOS3 if it was digital, the advantages of digital far outweigh the loss of ECF (to me). I am happy to live with the 300d's limitations to be able to afford digital. The 20d's autofocus system is better than we're used to, which is quite a big driver for me. It may not be quite as good as the EOS3, I'd like to hear a real world comparison from someone who's used both. If you really need long exposures, there are workarounds to do this digitally. Multiple exposures are easier to do on a PC than with a camera IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik_dahlbeck Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I went from an EOS 300 (film) to a new EOS 3 this spring. It's great! It effectively removes the posibility of blaming anything on the equipment (depending on your attitude, that might be either good or bad). The downside however, is that even though I'd really like the feedback and (relative) simplicity of digital operation, I now throw up the mere thought of going to a 10/20D class digital. The viewfinder, AF, spot metering, response and build quality does it. I mean, I now consider the 300's viewfinder equal to that of a keyhole and a brief look through the finder of a 10D makes me shudder... If I was in your situation, I'd get a used EOS 3 (can be found for cents/pennies/whatever these days) and shoot the heck out of it until a similar quality dSLR becomes available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark cohran Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I have an EOS 3, a 10D and a 20D. The EOS 3 has spent the last 2 years in my camera bag. If I shoot film, I shoot Medium Format. Do I wish the EOS 3 was available as digital, absolutely. Do I wish the 1D MkII was cheaper, yes again. But, if I had the choice of moving from the EOS30 to the 20D or EOS 3, I'd go to the 20D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodolfo_negrete Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 In my personal opinion: I stop learning when I got my 10D.Since my previous camera was all manual(RB60 Mamiya) it made me rationalize the procedures and had to.With the digital all have to do is set it up in the P or green button and take pictures lettin the camera make all the decitions for me and also if I no being so careful since all I have to do is take like 20 pictues of the same thing and I know that one of them is going to be accetptable of great. the RB60 was my first pro camera and last I did not comprehend that those hard to get pictures are way better pictures I have ever taken .the colors are lot more beautiful and there is something about the look of the picture which is better . downzise of the RB60 when it came down to print and buy film was very expensive (but was it worth it? at the time was not now I think yes) good side of the digital is that you could take 500 pictures in 30 minutes and not worry about film prices It is fun to learn Photoshop (at the begining the afterwards a got sick of it;being in from of the PC for houres becames old and boring unlike film) then I made a huge investment for lens ,computer,software,compact cards(which were very expensive 1 year ago)batteries,filters,and learning time. Bad canon .I spend almost $2000.00 dls for the 10D ($1590.00+taxes+and warranty) then they came out with a "better"one the 20D then my camera is worht like $800.00 dls and thirs is $1500.00 and were back to square one. Indeed I save in film but with the new camera advances makes you wonder about "saving" since your camera becames kind of obsolete afterwards. thereofore I am seriously thinking on buying an old Leica and do the things that digital can't do and limit us to do. I know digital camreras are great and they are very flexible but if you are good at taking pictures then it is not very necesary. all this marketing is like polotics,I wonder what the new trend is going to be a year from now? mmmmmm why do not we just focus on the core of this which is art. A wayt of seeing things, a way of expressing ourselves,docuemting facts and make those pictures tell us more than information but pleassure of communitcating and make an art of it. ho and Please pardon my writing since my first language is not english . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuppyDigs Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I have both the EOS 3 and 10D and use and love both cameras about equally. I find film is better for some things whereas digital is the way to go for others. So, the best of both worlds is a nice way to go. Sometimes the light’s all shining on me. Other times I can barely see. - Robert Hunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro_moreira Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Well... Crop factors is a mixed blessing. The good side is that your tele's get a "1.6x teleconverter bonus"... so that 300 f2.8 just became a 480 f2.8... this part is great. The down side is with wide-angles, of course... however, there are solutions... there's the sigma 12-24 (~20mm equiv on wide), and the upcoming canon 10-22 (16mm equiv on wide) and the tamron 11-18 (~17mm equiv on wide)None of these are f2.8 lenses, though... and we're talking some $600~$700 price tag. flip side is, you save money (and size/weight) on teles. It all boils down to what focal lengths you have and what you need. Point metering is nice, of course... but there are hand-held ones. Autofocus might be an issue, or not, depending on what kind of shooting you do. I do mostly landscapes and portraits and the AF on my 300D is pretty nice, even in kinda dim lighting. The viewfinder is kinda dim, sure... personally i can live with it, but then again I only had a 300v and now the 300D, so no real experience with big, bright viewfinders. Same goes for ECF. Weather sealing really depends on your kind of shooting. I don't often go to very dusty places or shoot much in bad weather. I do take good care of my equipment, and haven't had problems with dust or moisture so far. Multiexposures can be done is photoshop or similar program with greater control than on film, IMO. I started with a 300v... and given the costs of film and processing, and my limited budget (I'm a college student) i only shot about 400 or so pics in one year. I got maybe a handful of good shots. Most potencials needed some tweaking around (minor crops, light contrast or saturation fixes, etc). That meant scanning the film (at additional cost, and probably getting lower quality than if shooting digitally, cause really good scans are way expensive). I saved up for a 300D and made the change. After 6 months i've shot close to 700 pics. So far i got a lot more good ones, because of the instant feedback. Shoot, quick check of histogram/composition, shoot again if needed. I get a lot more pics that are technically correct (good focus and exposure)than before. Small fixes of contrast and saturation are pretty easy to do, and shooting RAW it's also pretty easy to further fine-tune exposure. End product is a photo with greater detail than on film, and one that is to my liking in terms of colour, saturation, contrast, etc... I get to have full control of the process from start to finish, and without film costs. So, bottom line, for me digital is better. Do you really need the features the EOS 3 has that the 20D doesn't? Do the advantages (or differences, to be imparcial) of digital outweight the features of the EOS 3? A side note, to Rodolfo: the 10D also has manual mode, as well as Av and Tv... Just make an effort to avoid the "lazyness" of P mode. I shoot mostly in Av mode. I've learned more using the 300D that with the 300v or my dad's old A1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodolfo_negrete Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 SO PLEASE GIVE ME REASONABLE PROS AND CONTRAS. see a picture made by a digital camera and one made out of the film camera using the same ISO.then you will decide. Do not get me wrong but I do not think that a 10D,20D,1D,can compare to a medium format camera quality pictures ,I do not know about the 1DS or the newer one since to be honest with you have not use them but if you compare prices woulc probably will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony_thornborough1 Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Reading these answers makes me think about selling all my Canon EOS (3 etc + L zoom) and Mamiya 645 Pro TL and going for Olympus (shock) 4/3 system. I just don't know what Canon are doing any more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent_j_m Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 You have written down some nice technical reasons to upgrade. Great. Do you need any of them? The EOS-30 is an extremely capable camera which can do almost everything the EOS-3 can. I have both the EOS-30 and 3 and almost always use the 30 because of its low profile operation, very quiet mirror and shutter and its handling. Getting used to the limitations of the EOS-30 is not hard. Learn the ins and outs of it, and use it.. it will serve you as nicely as an EOS-3 can. You talk about wasting exposures. Don't shoot blindly like so many digital users do. Treat your EOS-30 like a large format camera. Make each exposure count. Slow down. You won't waste any film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_morgan1 Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 <table border="1" width="51%"> <tr> <td width="50%"><b>Digital</b></td> <td width="50%"><b>Film</b></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="50%">You're the lab technician</td> <td width="50%">Drop your film off and come back later</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="50%">Encourages promiscuous shutter pushing</td> <td width="50%">Encourages shutter button discipline</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="50%">You get to learn poorly implemented user interfaces</td> <td width="50%"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="50%">It's like Slide film, only worse</td> <td width="50%">You can shoot slide film if you want</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="50%">Digital grain is digital grain</td> <td width="50%">Black and white grain is beautiful</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="50%">Less money/shot, more time/keeper</td> <td width="50%">More money/shot, less time/keeper</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="50%">Pro-sumer crop factors turn wide angle lenses into telephotos</td> <td width="50%">wide angle lenses are wide angle</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="50%">No film surface defects.</td> <td width="50%">Process your film dip and dunk pro lab and scan before inserting your film into a min-lab machine for cheap prints</td> </tr> </table> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikolo5 Posted October 12, 2004 Author Share Posted October 12, 2004 " You have written down some nice technical reasons to upgrade. Great. Do you need any of them? " ______________________________________________________ Ofcoarse I do. Otherwise I wouldn't post this. Yes, Im amateur. But this means nothing but I get any money from my pictures. 1. I am not satisfied with low-light autofocus capabilities of EOS 30. 2. The viewfinder is dim even in comparison with my friend's EOS 50. 3. Whenever I'm shooting in the huge fog or when wind gets some dust up I feel uncomfortable with my gear. But I need ECF, cause It can really help for tripod shooting. OK maybe multispot metering does not necessary for me. But there are so many new and seem "unnecessary" things in the school too :) The question is: Can the real time picture control and ability to overcome probable metering lacks by exposure bracketing in digital case (5 fps) outweight the EOS-3 's abilities ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikolo5 Posted October 12, 2004 Author Share Posted October 12, 2004 To Phil Vaughan: ""I would prefer an EOS3 if it was digital"" ______________________ EXACTLY ! :-))))))))) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yakim_peled1 Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 The advantages and disadvantages of each choice are so different that I fail to see how any of us can help you. It's what matters more to YOU. Happy shooting , Yakim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_hobday Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I just sold my D60 and EOS 3 and bought a 20D. Since buying the D60 in 2002 the EOS 3 has not seen much use at all.<br> <br> If you are an absolutely top-notch photographer who has already spent years going through the photography learning curve, you will still be able to get better pictures with low ISO professional films in some situations.<br> <br> For the rest of us though, a digital body such as the 20D cuts the learning curve by huge amounts. It also raises the average level of your shots far faster than film ever will. The quality of the 20D @ ISO 800 and 1600 is better than what I experienced with film.<br> <br> Finally, digital offers some things that film never can. If you are moving back and forth between brightly lit and dimly lit areas, move the ISO back and forth as you need it. No more worries about light temperature changing or using filters to compensate for it. Instant review of your shots to let you know what works and what does not. Freedom to experiment without worrying about cost. No more time-consuming scanning to get images into the PC.<br> <br> Get the 20D. You won't regret it!<br> <br> Ian<br> --<br> Ian Hobday<br> Osaka, Japan<br> <a href="http://hobday.net/photos" target="_blank">http://hobday.net/photos</a> (Opens in a new window.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony_thornborough1 Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Just kidding earlier! I own an EOS 3 and would go for the 20D if I were in your shoes. I won't be getting rid of my EOS 3 when, eventually, the '20D is in my kit bag, but I suspect it won't get used much, either. A close friend who went Nikon DSLR after decades of film hasn't looked back, and the technology seems to be there, finally. It's those EF-S lenses that worry me! I don't do "semi-pro" photography any longer, just take pictures for fun, but I want future-compatibility from Canon, so EF-S represents a new line of potential expenditure. The pros for you are getting on the wave of something new without regretting losing anything, and can enjoy your results so much quicker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikolo5 Posted October 12, 2004 Author Share Posted October 12, 2004 Thanks All for exhaustive answers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marco_valk Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 I have a question for Mark Cohran, Since you own both the eos 3 and the 20D. How does the autofocus of both cameras compare, especially tracking focus; this is an issue for me since I do a lot of wildlife photgraphy, sometimes in low light conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitmstr Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 >>With the digital all have to do is set it up in the P or green button << You must have missed the little "M" on the mode selector dial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodolfo_negrete Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Giampero the M mode is obvious. have not You notice that thousends of people (such as myself) are always looking for the "magic pill" that is going to make you thinner, or go to anybody's house at 6pm like 90% of the population is being entertain by tv; meaning that most of us like to go the easy route (not that we like to admited) By this I bolive that a manual camera is most likely to force you to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 <i>By this I bolive that a manual camera is most likely to force you to learn.</i><p> It will force you to learn how to turn the dials. That doesn't mean anything when it comes to being a photographer. Photography is about seeing, not which dials you can turn. I can teach someone how to turn the dials in about 90 seconds. Not much learning there. Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_clary Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Marco, I own the EOS 3 and have owned the 20D for one week, so have limited experience with the latter. So far, I love the 20D, but have no plans to sell the EOS 3. At low light in one shot mode, my subjective opinion is that the 20D is 5 times faster than the EOS 3. It is so fast it takes your breath away! But I also do mainly wildlife, and say so what? I haven't found lightning fast low light level AF particularly useful. The ease in manual focus in the 20D may be better than the 10D (which I've never used), but it is no where near the accuracy of the EOS 3 viewfinder. Spot metering is great in the EOS 3, but you have histogram in the 20D. Shooting digital lets you learn quickly; shooting slide film makes you very accurate with a single exposure. You probably think this diatribe is schizophrenic; perhaps it is. I love the EOS 3 for seeing the contrast and intense color in slides, and B&W. I like the 20D for digital files, digital printing, and instant feedback. Apples and pommegranites. I plan to keep and use both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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