Any experiences with grey market Hassy purchase via ebay

[benny_spinoza]

Does anyone have experience (good or bad) with purchasing grey market

Hassy via ebay? I've noticed a Hong Kong seller on ebay with great

Hassy prices. I'm a little cautious after reading the recent article

in the Wall Street Journal about fraud on ebay.

[art_haykin]

Buying gray market major brand mdse. is chancy even from domestic firms as you are usually denied any warranty, andbuying anything from all but the most known and trusted foreign firms is equally chancy. While Ebay has a fairly goodreputation, it seems to be getting a little out of hand due its burgeoning size. There are few good giants. Further, if taken by a firm half way around the world, your chances of recovery are two: nil and none. My opinion is, think longand hard about it.

[_____133]

Don't.

 

If you are willing to buy gray, check out Robert White of the UK or Cayman Camera of the Cayman Islands. You're risking far too much for too little savings buying from HongKong.

 

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

[philip_kachersky]

It is about risks.

 

The only totally safe purchase is to not buying anything. However, it order of safety.

 

1. Buy from authorized dealer. Most expensive but full support.

 

2. Buy gray from a dealer in US. Middle price.(See note below.)

 

3. Buy from Honk Kong through eBay. Cheapest but greatest risk. No protection whatsoever.

 

I chose to buy a Hasselblad lens gray market from Delta International for the follow reasons.

 

1. Past experience.

 

2. Located in NYC. Thus if I have a problem I have some legal recourse.

 

3. Ability to pay with a Credit card. Thus if I have a problem I can contest the charge. This isn't perfect but it is better than nothing.

 

With Hong Kong you have no protection at all.

 

1. eBay fraud protection is only "most items on eBay are covered for up to $200 (minus $25 of the item price)."

 

2. SquareTrade offers little protection. Quoted from eBay - "Q. Am I guaranteed a solution? A. SquareTrade helps buyers and sellers resolve issues but cannot guarantee a solution or that the other party will participate. If the other party does not participate in mediation, your fees are refunded." The fees are SquareTrade fees not your purchase price.

 

3. eBay feedback is not perfect. If I leave a negative rating on the seller, he will leave one for me. How long have you worked not to get any negative ratings? So are you really going to leave a negative, especially if you also sell on eBay.

 

4. MOST IMPORTANT, no credit card protection. PayPal is not a normal credit card purchase. If you have a dispute it will be with PayPal. Their answer will be that we fulfilled what you bought from us, ie. we paid the merchant. No recourse.

 

If you are willing to risk $2,000 to $3,000 for those terms it is your money. I was not willing to do so.

[glen_johnson]

There are two risks here. One is the risk to buy anything on eBay, and this may or may not be significant. Millions of people buy stuff there every day. If a seller has extensive positive feedback, and if they're willing to give you a phone number and a legitimate street address, chances are they're OK.

 

The second is the risk of buying gray and having the official importer treat you as an illegitimate unwanted child. Well, if you're in this situation, you do have some options. If you ever do need a repair, you can just send the item to a repair shop other than the official importer. As a theoretical matter, anything could fail at any time... but as a practical matter, I've owned 30+ lenses and 10+ different camera bodies in my life, and I've only sent 1 body and 1 lens off to an official importer for a repair. Both were USA items, and the importer treated me very fairly on one, and screwed me on the other.

[glen_johnson]

Sorry for the second post.... I meant to say this, but there was a computer glitch that killed my first post before it was posted, and I forgot to put this in when I posted it.

Regarding PayPal, I called my credit card company before I joined PayPal. My credit card company told me that I would have the same protections if I used my credit card through PayPal as I would have using them with any other merchant. They also said that they see a lot of PayPal purchases, and in their experience, PayPal hadn't been identfied for them as a problem.

 

My own problems with PayPal have come when buyers have tried to send me money from their bank account, and because of uncertainties PayPal has held up clearing their "wire transfer" by as much as 2 weeks. This is pretty frustrating, because the buyer thinks that payment has been made instanteously, but the seller is thinking "hey, this hasn't cleared yet."

[philip_kachersky]

You have the same protections with Paypal that you have with other merchants. However, please understand what you are purchasing from Paypal. You are purchasing a service and not a product. The service is to pay a third party. Once they have done that their service is done. You are out the money.

 

For example, you buy a lens from Hong Kong through eBay. You authorize Paypal to pay the merchant $2,000. They do so but you never receive the lens. Next, you challenge the charge with your credit card company. They investigate and deny it because Paypal fulfilled the service for which you paid them (Paypal).

 

As far as Paypal not having complaints, check the news. A class action suit was filed against them last week and several state are trying to regulate them as a bank. Check http://www.paypalwarning.com/

[philip_kachersky]

Sorry, typo error. The sentence "You are out the money" goes with the example in the second paragraph.

 

Also understand that I have no axe to grind with PayPal. The service can work well. I am just trying to explain what you are actually buying from them (a service).

 

I do have something against buying email from Hong Kong. However, it is your money at risk and not mine.

[glen_johnson]

As a buyer with PayPal, if you use your credit card, it looks to me like you have very little risk at all. If you tell PayPal within 30 days that the item was never delivered, or that the terms of the sale weren't honored, they'll refund your money. From the seller's point of view, PayPal looks to me like it is worse than a direct credit card as far as protections are concerned because an unstable buyer can complain within 30 days, and the complaint will probably be honored. Also, if you're going to use PayPal as a casual user, I think it is less user friendly or service oriented than if you use it as a Premium customer. I've never had any trouble getting through to talk to people, and they've been pretty honest and frank over the phone. FWIW, most of the guys from Hong Kong know that PayPal isn't in their favor, so most of them don't seem to be interested in taking PayPal in payment.

 

There is no doubt that you can get burned when you enter into a transaction on eBay, but the odds are in your favor. Same is true for PayPal. I know about the lawsuit, and the problems reported in the media.... but if you look at the percentage of transactions that go awry, its pretty small.

 

Caveat Emptor. I hope no one buys gray market stuff on eBay just because I've suggested that you can do OK by that route. I would hate for someone's transaction to go wrong, and then have them upset with me. I'm just sharing my 2 cents, and its probably not worth even that much.

 

Any hockey fans out there? How about them Canadians today? If we had to get beat, it couldn't have been by a nicer bunch of guys. :-).

[philip_kachersky]

Glen:

 

I don't wish to get into a argument but your information is wrong. It is important to set the record straight so that no one depends on this type of protection.

 

Copied below is from Palpal's web site. The ALL CAPS were by PalPal on not me. I did not edit in any way. http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/terms-outside

 

The important areas are that they will refund money if there is money in the person's account to refund on a first come first serve basis and nothing more. If there is no money in the account, no refund. As important is this does not apply to international orders. Finally, the extra eBay protection is limited to $200.

 

Read for yourself.

 

BTW. If the USA couldn't win, I am glad our good neighbors did.

 

Buyer Complaint Policy

 

 

General. If you pay a seller who does not ship the promised goods, you should first contact the seller and attempt to resolve the dispute. If you are unable to resolve the dispute in this manner, you should then file a Buyer Complaint Form with PayPal as soon as possible. The Buyer Complaint Form may be found by going to the "Security Center" link in the footer of any page on the PayPal website.

 

PayPal will investigate your claim, contact the seller and, if the seller does not present appropriate proof of shipment, a full refund or other evidence of a satisfactory resolution, PayPal will seek to collect the amount you paid from the seller. PayPal may also restrict the seller's PayPal account. You and other buyers who file claims against the same seller will be entitled to the return of any and all funds PayPal is able to collect from the seller, on a first-come, first-served basis for funds received by PayPal prior to the restriction of the seller's account. RECOVERY OF YOUR CLAIM IS NOT GUARANTEED.

 

Complaints must be filed no later than 30 days from the date of payment. PayPal will seek to resolve the complaint within 30 days of the date the complaint is filed, though such time frame may be extended, if appropriate, to accommodate the investigation. This policy applies only to the sale of tangible, physical goods and excludes all other sales and services, pursuant to section 1 above.

 

 

Additional Protection for eBay Auctions. For purchases made on eBay using PayPal, PayPal offers additional protection to domestic Users who pay a Verified seller but do not receive their goods. This additional protection is not available for International Users. If PayPal is unable to recover all of your funds through our investigation of a qualifying dispute, you may file a claim under eBay's Insurance Claims process (an "eBay Claim"). If your eBay Claim is granted but does not cover the full amount of your loss, PayPal will reimburse you for up to $200 of additional losses, whether or not PayPal is able to recover such funds from the seller.

 

In order to receive this additional protection, you must file a Buyer Complaint Form with PayPal no more than 30 days after the eBay transaction, following the same process outlined in (i) above. You may file your eBay Claim at any time, but eBay is likely to require you to obtain a determination from PayPal before they will process your claim. If and when your eBay claim is granted, you must contact PayPal customer service no more than 30 days after the grant date. You will need to provide PayPal with a copy of the eBay Claim that you filed and satisfactory evidence that your eBay Claim was granted. PayPal may also require additional documentation as proof of your identity. PayPal will reimburse you for up to $200 of additional losses not covered by the eBay claim within 30 days of the date you provide evidence that your eBay Claim was granted. This time frame may be extended if necessary to ensure the accuracy of the claim.

 

This Additional Protection does not apply to disputes about the quality or attributes of delivered goods, goods that have been lost in the mail as shown by seller's presentation of proof of shipment, payments for services, payments to Unverified sellers, or a seller's failure to deliver intangible goods. Pursuant to section 1 above, this policy applies only to the sale of tangible, physical goods and excludes all other sales and services. In order to be eligible for the eBay Additional Protection, you must have paid for the undelivered goods with a single payment from a single PayPal account. The seller's Verification status will be displayed to you on the PayPal website when you confirm the details of your transaction, giving you the opportunity to cancel the transaction prior to sending payment if you do not want to pay an Unverified seller.

[benny_spinoza]

Thanks for all of your replies. Especially regarding the comments about any legal recourse when using PayPal. Which got me thinking. An advantage with using a credit card is the "Implied Warranty of Merchantability", which I believe applies to any purchase over $50. But this would appear to extend only to the transaction with PayPal, not beyond that. So, as long as PayPal does its part, that's it as far as the Implied Warranty is concerned. So the safer route is to purchase from those dealers who accept credit card payments.

 

On another matter...I thought it was interesting that not one message dealt with an actual experience with the Hong Kong seller on e-bay. Does this mean that readers of this forum have never gone this route? What about all those wonderful comments on e-bay regarding the seller? Are they legitimate, or from shills? And if legitimate, you would think that at least one of them would be reading this forum and would respond.

 

Thanks to all for getting me thinking about this. Perhaps Delta International is the way to go for grey market stuff.

[glen_johnson]

I rarely keep ANY money in my PayPal account. They encourage you to do this, but in fact, if you do, you are more subject to their whims. If you use your credit card to make the charge, there is no problem for PayPal to recredit your account within the 30 day period. PayPal seriously limits the amount of money a seller can move from their PayPal account to cover contingencies. FWIW, there are risks with PayPal, as there are risks with other methods of transaction. If you send a cashiers check, for example, you have virtually no recourse once its cashed and the transaction unfolds, except for whatever relief you might get through the courts - very hard to do with a foreign transaction.

 

This is how I set up for PayPal and eBay. I set up a separate bank account and a separate credit card. I never have any more money in the bank account that I feel I can comfortably "lose" if something were to go wrong. I only use the credit card for PayPal, or other internet purchase purposes.

 

If you're buying from someone overseas, don't do it because you can't afford to buy in your home country...If you can't afford to buy in your home country, you probably can't afford the risk of an international transaction that goes bad. If you can afford to buy in your home country, and you don't like risk, don't fool with the international transaction. If you have enough resources to do what you want without worrying about losing a thou' here or there, roll the dice.

 

Certainly the safest thing is to stay away from both PayPal and eBay. How many folks out there have bought stuff that they didn't even know they needed just because it was an incredible deal? How many have bought stuff and paid way too much just because they wanted it so badly? eBay is the penultimate garage sale.

 

FWIW, when I'm selling stuff, I don't take PayPal... I've had trouble as a seller. When I'm buying stuff, if the seller doesn't have their own credit card capability, and will take PayPal instead of a money order or cashier's check, I'm right there using PayPal. No matter how big a risk PayPal might be compared to a direct charge card transaction, the risk of PayPal is a whole lot less than sending a cashiers check or money order without ever having seen what you're buying.

 

I don't see this as an argument. Its pretty much different views of risk. And I certainly agree that PayPal AND eBay AND gray market in general, come with risks that some people either can't afford to take, or wouldn't want to take. NOBODY should go out and use PayPal, eBay or gray market based on my comments until they've assessed the risks for themselves. It took me a good while (measured in years) to work up the nerve to do some of these things myself.

[philip_kachersky]

Though it is slightly off topic, I felt I need to clarify my PayPal statements.

 

PayPal can work when it is used as designed. It was set-up to send payments to sellers who are not merchants and therefore do not have a Visa/MC merchants account.

 

For example, you inherited your aunts doll collection and want to sell it. You list it on eBay and get a buyer from across the country. She sends you the money through PayPal and you send her the dolls. This works well.

 

The Minox camera is a classic and works well. However, as a photographer you would not use one to photograph a wedding.

 

PayPal was not designed to be used by merchants to bypass Visa/MC safeguards. Some merchants claim they don�t want to pay the expense of a merchants account. This is false as PayPal�s fees are higher. PayPal pays the same fees and wants to make a profit on the transaction. Thus the end users fees are higher. This is fine for the causal user.

 

The only two reasons a merchant would want to use PayPal over a merchants account are:

 

1. Their credit is bad and can�t get a merchants account.

 

2. They, as a seller, do not want the risk of Visa/MC safeguards for buyers if a transaction goes bad. They do not want to offer any guarantees.

[glen_johnson]

Without going into who has bought from Hong Kong and who hasn't in a public forum, you can take a look at the feedback on eBay and see how many people have done it. While it is true that negative feedback is rarely left unless a transaction really heads into the dumper, lots and lots of positive feedback is generally a good sign. You can look at some of the Hong Kong dealers feedback, and its pretty clear that there are US buyers lining up to buy their stuff.

 

One last comment. You can get screwed buying gear from any number of folks without ever even going near eBay or PayPal. In my experience, American Express has become less willing to deal with customer complaints in recent years compared to in earlier years (say pre 1990 vs. post 1990). And look at all the NYC dealers who have a history of bait and switch, and gray for USA. If you want to completely avoid risk, the best way to buy camera gear is from a good local dealer with whom you've developed a professional working relationship, and stick with gear that has good support from the official importer. I did that for years back in the 1970's, but when the local guy went belly up (according to him because he couldn't compete with the discount stores that were coming in at the time with camera departments), I started looking at other options. First step is to get the courage up to be willing to buy something from one of those NYC guys who advertise. It goes from there.

[philip_kachersky]

Glen:

 

Your post came while I was writing mine.

 

I agree with most of what you wrote.

 

BTW

 

I use and MBNA credit card for internet purchases. They have a SafeShop system that issues a new credit card number for each transaction. You set the limit and it can be only used my one merchant. Great for safety!

[philip_kachersky]

Another cross post.

 

Many people are lining up to buy from Hong Kong. True but the opportunity to save $1,000 blinds many people including myself to take unnecessary risk.

 

Again if you are willing to take the risk, it is you money.

 

Off to work.

[glen_johnson]

Actually, there is a third reason why a "merchant" would use PayPal, and that is they're not really a "merchant," but a hobbiest or modest volume seller who does not want the headaches of dealing directly with the credit card companies.

[glen_johnson]

That MBNA feature sounds pretty cool. I don't think the card I'm using offers that at this point. It would be worth looking into. I do think we're pretty much in agreement. It really does come down to how much risk and aggravation you can afford to subject yourself too. Thanks,

Glen

[cameron_ertman]

Benny, I know that one of the Hong Kong sellers on E-Bay states that their new equipment comes with a blank International Warrantee card which means that Warrantee work will be honored anywhere does it not?(when I buy Hasselblad from Cayman Camera (the Cayman Islands) or from a source in Canada, I get the same International Warrantee card). I have no direct experience actually getting warrantee work done however, so you could check with Hasselblad to see if International Warrantee cards are honored in the US.

[william_gormly]

Using eBay, I recently purchased a new Hasselblad 501CM body from a dealer in Hong Kong at about a 65% discount over what they're going for at some of the major photo stores in this country (the ones frequently mentioned on this forum). Four days after I clicked the "send" button, the item was sitting on my desk. No problems, no hassel, just a savings of about $1300.00. The dealer had 581 positive responses and was listed as an eBay "Gold Power Seller," whatever that is. If there was a risk, I don't know what it was. I used a credit card issued by my bank, which guarantees against loss by fraud, breakage, theft, and loss of the credit card itself. They know that if there's a problem not resolved to my satisfaction, I, my credit card, my savings account and my checking account go somewhere else. Consumers do have leverage if they bother to do some comparison shopping for banks and credit cards as well as photo equipment.

[anthony_lee4]

It is interesting to participate in this discussion. People in US had a misunderstanding of how the people conduct business in the East and they always think that a low price means fraud. This may be true in some cases that some shops in Nathan Road are ripping off tourists. However, I think the huge feedback and response are an indication of how a particular seller behave. In Far East, they do not have fancy internet system, beautiful shops, expensive tax and therefore they normally reduce margin to a comfortable level just as to create business. I would like to comments that these high price is more or less a policy of distributor rather than the shop. In US, I think most of the dealers charge a high markup asthe overheads are much higher. So this end up a 50% differences in price. In respect of warranty, I think the difference became less apparently as most seller start to offer one year international warranty themselves in order to cater for post sales services.

[glen_johnson]

FWIW, I've bought stuff from Anthony, and I've been very pleased with his service. He describes things honestly, and he ships things quickly. I would buy from him again.

 

Regarding the US prices, actually the markups on many of the items is not that great. Maybe the importer is making the money. The retail prices are high, but no one can charge retail since there are so many places where sub-retail prices are advertised.

 

I once went through Canon and Nikon price lists with a local dealer and the regional Canon rep, and we compared the dealer's cost to the actual selling prices at B&H. In some cases (like for F5 and 1N) the B&H actual selling price was lower than what the local dealer could buy at quantity discount from Canon or Nikon. It was easy to understand the frustration of the local dealer.

 

The Canon rep insisted that the volume price discount for the dealer was the best price available to any dealer, including B&H. Later another rep suggested that what happens is this: The price to the dealer is correct, but if the dealer (like B&H) buys a gajillion of them, they also receive a whole bunch more "for free." I don't know if this is true or not, but it would explain how Canon could state that the lowest dealer price is the same to all, while B&H can keep from going out of business while selling below the published dealer volume price.

 

I know that I would not want to be in the photo equipment sales business. I tip my hat to the folks who can make a living at it, whether they're in the US, or overseas. The margins look pretty small to me - at least on Nikon and Canon. Maybe the margins on Hasselblad are better. Certainly Hasselblad seems to do a better job of controlling price to avoid steep discounts from authorized dealers in the US.

[cpj]

It seems as though the thread on gray market purchases from overseas goes on and on. You can save "almost as much" by purchasing gray market items from some of the leading "authorized" Hasselblad dealers in the US. To meet the competition you'll find they offer brand new gray market items with description terms such as "unused" and "still in box," "counter display item" or "store demo-like new," which are clues that the item is actually gray market. Usually they will confirm the gray market status if you phone. Check Shutterbug Magazine for these terms. You'll pay $100 to $150 more than the same $2000 item from Hong Kong or Grand Cayman, but you'll have the services of a reputable, established US dealer who will help you with warranty work if anything does go wrong. Just a bit of advice, it is best to deal with a place where the guy who answers the phone also owns the shop. That way you can develop a "relationship" and a continuity of sales and service. You not only support small business in America but when you call back 6 months later they are more apt to remember you by name.

[dan_lindsay]

I continue to indorse the Hong Kong dealers who are legitimate

businessmen and come from a long history of 'good' camera

deals. I've been buying camera gear from Hong Kong since the

early 1970s. Whenever a friend was flying over to Hong Kong I

simply provided my wish list and money and in a few days the

item was in my hands. Viola! Items had their warranty papers

stamped with the respective dealer information and I never had

a problem with servicing the item in this country (i.e., USA). More

recently my taste in camera gear has been toward Leica and

Hasselblad (from Nikon) and I have purchased Leica gear from

German dealers and know that Leica USA will repair the item,

under warranty, because I have a world-wide warranty, and a

dated FOREIGN receipt. I was the 'importer' in that case and it

was not a parallel import. Keep in mind that the purchase of a

Hasselblad or any other camera overseas (with an overseas

receipt) totally bypasses the concept of "grey market." You

become the importer of that item for your personal use and, in

effect, you bought it overseas and brought it into the country

yourself. Only when you purchase a foreign item from a USA

dealer (and get an American receipt) and it is not a regular USA-

imported item do you run into the question of a "parallel import."

Why anyone would buy a used Hassy in the states when you can

buy a new in box item from Hong Kong for LESS is beyond me.

With manufacturing quality control as good as it is these days,

there is little chance for an item to require service/repair during

its warranty period. Later, when periodic service/preventive

maintenance is required, you simply work with your local

repairman. The entire key to this action is the foreign receipt. It

shows origin and date of purchase,--effectively, when the item

entered service, for the purpose of starting the clock on the

warranty.

 

Much of the earlier replies are full of fear from dealing with the

unknown,--particularly overseas in HK. The two I can

recommend, ETEFORE and Anthony Lee (AMHLEE) are

trustworthy businessmen. They deal in thousands of dollars of

merchandise a week and work hard to gain your trust and

confidence.

 

The final part of this business is global mailing. With the

tremendous growth of international trade, services like FedEx,

Airborne Express and others have made dealing with overseas

businesses like working with the guy next door. Some of us in

the USA live in isolated areas which require a trip to the post

office anyway to get an item out for service. It can just as easily

go to HK for service. What has happened in the USA is that

camera repair operations are suffering from a vast shortage of

talented repair personnel, and they have significant backlogs of

work. (This is precisely why Nikon USA doesn't want to touch

REAL grey market goods in Melville, NY,--they simply have

enough trouble keeping up with the stuff they were responsible

for importing).

 

The US dollar is experiencing a wonderful exchange rate

advantage over many foreign currencies today. Because of that,

we should be seeing the price of foreign goods dropping. But

what do we really see? Rebates. The US representatives are

forced to incentivise us with rebates to attempt to realign USA

prices with that of the overseas dealers. How really great it is for

those of us with a sweet tooth for things photographic to have

access to foreign dealers more than ever before, and eager to

take US dollars.

 

Dan Lindsay, Santa Barbara