Summicron 3D-effect?

[r s]

Even though I've only taken 2-3 rolls so far with my M3 and Summicron

50/2 - there have been some interesting 'discoveries' that I'm

looking forward to exploring further.

<br>

Some photos have a distinct '3d-look' to them when shooting at around

f/4 - more so than what I remember seeing from other lenses

(including my beloved Zeiss lenses).

<br>Is this an 'effect' that is often contributed to the Summicron

lens (mine is from the 60's)?

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Below are two examples of what atleast I consider to be examples of

this (slightly oversharpened in PS but the originals looks pretty

much the same - or better):

<Center>

<img src="http://www.pbase.com/image/30861190.jpg"></center>

<br>

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<Center>

<img src="http://www.pbase.com/image/31566557.jpg"></center>

<br>

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Then again maybe I'm just imagining it.

[everitt]

Are you sure you aren't wearing these when looking at the pics?<div></div>

[Karim Ghantous]

I had a look back at your 'strike' post and I rather liked #4. They all have this rather 'graphic' quality to them. No, that's not the right word, but they are striking despite the oversharpening.

 

I don't know, you seemed to be using selective focus very well. That must explain that lovely quality.

[________1]

I think any sharply defined subject against a field of OOF area will tend to have that look. That's my experience at any rate. Might be interesting to try the lens at its maximum hyper focal distance and see if the effect is apparent with BG in focus. My guess is the effect wouldn?t be as noticeable.

[r s]

Jamie, I disagree. I've taken photos with a number of various lenses over the years and even though my tests so far is based on a very small number of rolls through the camera (hence me asking others for their experiences) - I haven't seen such an apparent 3d 'effect' with many/other lenses.

<br><br>

As an example, this Canon shot doesn't have it:

<Center>

<img src="http://www.pbase.com/image/25621299.jpg"></center><br><br>

Neither does this hasselblad shot really:

<Center>

<img src="http://www.pbase.com/image/21474008.jpg"></center><br><br>

And maybe it's get lost in the digital translation and I can "see it" because I in my mind still see the originals.

<br>

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Would just be interested to hear if anyone else have noticed this effect being 'strong' when using the summicron lens. That's all. No flaming intended, no 'trolling', no nothing - just a question of curiousity.

[mark_luinenburg]

I think this is a quality that most Leica lenses have. If you do a

test with some slide film comparing the Summicron with your

other lenses (non-Leica) at identical exposures you'll see a

definite difference in shadow detail. Maybe this is why they look

more 3-D. Leica has a different philosphy when they design

lenses, they don't just go for sharpness, they also try to achieve a

certain aesthetic quality to the way it captures light. Leica was

one of the first companies to use computers to design lenses

but their approach and goals are a bit different than other

companies and it shows. I have the 50 Summicron and also the

35 Summicron Asph. as well as an older (mid 80's) 35

Summilux and a 24 Asph. and love them all. Each one has it's

own unique qualities. My bodies are the M6 TTL and a sweet M2.

Have fun!

[tony_salce]

Richard,

 

Great pics. Congratulations.

 

I agree there is a 3D effect. I get it fom my Dual Range Summicron and even more so from my Summitar, one the most underrated Leica lenses.

 

Best regards,

 

Tony Salce

[terry_rory]

That Hassy shot is the best of the bunch. (Personal taste rather than anything to do with a Summicron's ability to portray any 3D quality.)

 

I have only ever seen one Summicron shot here that made me want to buy one right there and then....

 

<a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/big-image?bboard_upload_id=16476084">click here</a>

[djl251]

I agree. My summitar records a 3-d effect that I have not seen with any other lens.

[Uhooru]

You can get a real "snap" to the subject with these lenses, but I disagree with you bout the Hassey. I think the subject really pops out. Here's one with a Sumicron.

 

<img src = http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/2224216-lg.jpg>

[denis_pleic]

"Some photos have a distinct '3d-look' to them..."

 

I'm not a Leica user (yet), but this is exactly what I'm looking for.

 

I've tried many kinds of lenses (mainly Nikons, Rolleiflexes, even some Russky RFs), but I've never been able to achieve that 3-D look.

Some Hassy photos I've seen came close (Planar 80), though... Although Hassy is not an option for me.

 

So, looks like I'll have to switch to Leica glass to achieve this, since nothing else comes really close to this 3-D effect I'm looking for.

 

Now, asking the more experienced Leica users here - which lenses in 50mm range can yield results similar to these?

 

Apart from 'Cron 50/2 as Richard indicated, are there any (older) LTM lenses that come close? I'm thinking of going cheaper way, and getting something in LTM mount to put on one of my Russian screwmount bodies, before cughing up megabucks for the full M kit (man, those M bodies *are* expensive!).

 

Are similar results possible with older collapsible 50mm lens?

 

Thanks for any advice,

 

Denis

[paul t]

I've seen it. Sorry, no scanner, so can't post relevant shots. Obviously, some of

this is subjective, but I think this is why I prefer my Summicron to my CV

lenses. I think the difference is more noticeable in b/w than in colour. Although

much of this will be seen as smoke & mirrors to justify paying out lots of

money, lenses are inherently complex systems, and it stands to reason they

will have their own 'look'. That was why I hated my bland, clear, CV 75 lens

and love my (cheaper) Nikkor AIS 85. <p>This will of course go down with

'bokeh' and other alchemical terms, but if you like it, ain't paid a fortune to get

it, and get turned on enough to go out and get more good shots, who's gonna

knock it? (I have a feeling we all know...)

[jtdnyc]

I believe I sometimes see the 3D effect you are describing, but only when there is a gradual -- as opposed to abrupt -- transition between image planes in the picture.

 

Such a gradual transition arises, I suspect, from the combination of three factors:

 

1. a moderately wide aperture -- say, f4, as you suggest -- so that there is a separation of the plane of the principal subject from other planes, but not the abrupt separation that might be rendered by f2 or wider;

 

2. a lens with pleasant rendition of out-of-focus planes, which might explain why you are more likely to see the 3D effect with certain generations of Leica lenses; and

 

--here's the often-neglected factor --

 

3. a subject matter that lends itself to being rendered in 3D; i.e, one with multiple images planes that are not extremely far apart, so that the difference between in-focus and out-of-focus can be noticeable but subtle.

 

Looking at the pictures you have posted to illustrate the effect, I agree that it exists in the Leica shots and not the others. However, I'm not sure that's the fault of Canon and Zeiss. The Canon shot has two planes of interest that are widely separated; thus, the subject matter doesn't lend itself to a gradual fall-off in sharpness. And, for the Hasselblad shot, the limited depth of field of the longer lens required by the 6x6 format might, again, make the fall-off too abrupt.

 

I haven't used Canon or Zeiss medium format lenses. It might be that these lenses would never give the 3D effect that we sometimes get with Leica glass. In fact, I'd like to believe that's the case.

 

But I really think that subject matter plays a bigger part in this phenomenon than most observers have been willing to consider.

[__stu_evans]

Absolutely. I can even discern a subjects odor from a Leica negative.

[terry_rory]

Whats that scuffling and snuffling noise I can hear under the floor? Ah! It is the trolls beginning to awaken.

 

They're gonna make you all suffer and pay dearly for all this talk of 3-D and Bokeh stuff and no mistake :)

 

I know that even amongst my (non Leica) gear there are lenses which give a 3-dimensional 'look' more than others do. My 50mm Carl Zeiss Planar f1.4 AE is the best in this respect. An old Minolta Rokkor 45mm f2 used to do it as well.

 

However I see very few examples which are convincing enough on the screen to bring out the effect you are talking about. On a nice glossy 15x10 Frontier print, especially from a Reala neg, it shows.

[olivier_reichenbach]

Very interesting thread.

 

Now, I'm waiting for one of Mister-what-his-name .[.Z's nasty and sour comments.

Shouldn't take long.

[mark_l]

Hi Richard,

 

I'm not discounting the Leica "pop" as I have seen several photos other photographers have done that seem to show that same 3d effect, and perhaps Leica has a tendency to show that better. However, more importantly I think the lighting of your subject, and toning/presentation of a photo can either enhance/decrease how much of that effect will show. In a previous posting, I asked a similar question, and the answer from several photographers was that the lighting is the most important factor, and my experiences (with my Canon FD cameras/lenses) have led me to agree.

 

As an example, I adjusted the levels on your Canon shot, added a similar border as your Leica shots (but in white), and toned the photo. I think it adds more dimensionality to the photo. What are your thoughts?<div></div>

[al henry]

Congratulation Richard you have seen the light. (no pun intended) The truth is it is a lot more about the light than it is ever going to be about the lens.

[brambor]

I have seen something similar what you described with my Leica lenses but also with some Konica Hexanon lenses like the 85mm 1.8 and 57mm 1.2P.S.Greetings from San Diego. I've managed to go through 5 rolls of film, burn my skin twice, ruin my body while learning surfing and played ping pong in the California Games. The best thing was to leave yellow filter on for a few shots. after I switched to K64. I've got one more week to go. Better start taking some pictures.

[ray .]

3-D glasses went out in the '50's, for good reason.

 

To tell if it's the Summicron producing the effect you'd need to shoot the same subject in the same lighting condition, film, processing etc, wouldn't you?

 

Nice Canon cop shot by the way, best of the lot. Has nothing to do with 3-D though.

 

OK, have at it.

[furcafe]

I'm agree w/Mark L. & Al Henry. I've seen similar "3-D" effects in shots taken w/non-Leica lenses, but w/similar lighting & backgrounds.

[furcafe]

I forgot to add that I also agree w/Jonathan Davis re: arrangement of the subject matter.

 

Here's an example (more apparent in the uncropped original) of 1 of my shots (taken w/ Canon RF 85/1.8) that is perhaps closer to your subject matter & lighting:

 

<center><img src="http://not.contaxg.com/files/0017/0112-26DrummerCrop.jpg"></center>

[terry_rory]

Just thought I would join in with one of my own.<div></div>

[david k.]

3D effect, absolutely....very easily done with a current 50 Cron and Kodachrome 64. Sometimes it just takes your breath away - that's why we keep on shooting that antiquated film, and the images last forever it seems.

[graham_line]

Take a close look at the light and shadows in the postings; in all but Richard's Hassy color shot of the three people, the lighting is high-angle, diffuse and provides good edge lighting for the subjects, maybe even a touch of backlight, that makes the primary subject pop out of the background. Using a wide aperture like f4 helps make this more distinct.