paul_ogawa Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 Thanks for all the response. Now I know the lens to get. It seems that the prime lens is the way to go until I can afford those fixed aperture, ED coated Nikkor zooms. I heard the if you use the electronic flash for the Ftn, it only works at 1/60 sec. Will that be a serious limitation to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_fallis1 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Paul, If you go for a "fast" prime lens (with a maximum aperture of 1.4 to 2 -- yes, the smaller numbers are bigger apertures, no, it wasn't my idea), and you use "fast" film (400 ASA), you'll seldom need flash. But yes, if you use flash, your fastest synchronization speed is 1/60th of a second. That's a limitation of the F, not just the FTn-prismed model. Take a look at your shutter speed dial. Notice how the numbers over 1/60th are in one color (green on mine), 1/60th is another color (red for me), and the slower speeds are a third color (white)? Somewhat paradoxically, the green means flash is not synchronized at that speed, which will usually result in only part of the frame being correctly exposed because the shutter was out of sync with the lens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Currie Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 "I heard the if you use the electronic flash for the Ftn, it only works at 1/60 sec. Will that be a serious limitation to me?" It is a pretty serious limitation for fill flash in bright light, because you will really have to struggle to get the ambient exposure right at a speed of 1/60 or less. There are many instances, especially if you are using fast film, when fill flash is simply not an option. You'll have to be pretty careful with exposure compensation when you shoot high contrast scenes. It is really no problem for straight flash photography, where you set the exposure as the flash dictates, and ignore the ambient light. An electronic flash will stop motion at any shutter speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_ogawa Posted July 17, 2004 Author Share Posted July 17, 2004 Thanks. I'm primarily interested in using this camera for some archetecture, landscape, and studio portraits b/w shots. I'm won't use it for anything fast like sports. So, you say 1/60 sec flash sync is a limitation for daylight fill flash. I use prime lens so I can get the aperture wide open (but doesn't picture quality deteriorates when you make the aperature open large?). I can also use fast films. (but doesn't that also affect the picture quality since it has larger grain and it can't be enlarged?) I prefer sharpness and great image quality. Therefore, I'd like to use the slowest film I can get away with (with reasonable skill). My father uses a N80, and that has a max flash sync at 1/120, and even the top of the line Nikon F5 only has a max flash sync at 1/240. That's "only" one or two stops higher than the Nikon F. (maybe one or two stops is a lot, I don't know). I always hear that in photography, "the photographer's skill is much more important than equipments". So with proper skill, is it still possible to make great, high resolution, daytime fill in flash pics with the Nikon F, or am I doomed by it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_ogawa Posted July 17, 2004 Author Share Posted July 17, 2004 By the way, is it possible to make extremely long exposures, such as 30 seconds, with the Nikon F? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sliu Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 If you are mainly interested in architecture, landscape, and studio portraits, I suggest you buy a good tripod and use cable release. With fine grain film you can get very sharp images. There are also some special perspective control lenses (<a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005kUc">http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005kUc</a>) which allow you to shoot architecture. <p> You can shoot Nikon F with B or T shutter for long exposure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sliu Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 <i>So with proper skill, is it still possible to make great, high resolution, daytime fill in flash pics with the Nikon F, or am I doomed by it?</i><p>If you insist on using fill in flash and you want high resolution, the best choice is to use slow film. In general, the slower the film, the finer the grains. There is no reason to use fast 400 ASA film in bright day light. <p>I think the only limit of the 1/60 sync is when you <b>have to</b> shoot at high speed to stop action. (I have heard that this is the main reason NBA photographers shoot games with Hasselblad.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mskovacs Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Remember you can also use any speed slower than 1/60. My F3's only go to 1/80 flash synch and if you are doing handheld action work its a pretty serious limitation. You can use slower film but you need a faster shutter speed than 1/60 to obtain a sharp, fill-flashed image with e.g. an 80-200 zoom. 1/250 on my FM2N is ideal for this type of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_ogawa Posted July 17, 2004 Author Share Posted July 17, 2004 "Remember you can also use any speed slower than 1/60. My F3's only go to 1/80 flash synch and if you are doing handheld action work its a pretty serious limitation. You can use slower film but you need a faster shutter speed than 1/60 to obtain a sharp, fill-flashed image with e.g. an 80-200 zoom. 1/250 on my FM2N is ideal for this type of work." Why do I need faster shutter speed than 1/60 to obtain a sharp, fill-flashed image? Even when I shoot still objects and don't need to freeze the action? 99% of the things I shoot usually will NOT be moving. I don't plan to shoot fast things like sports. I will only shoot achetecture, landscape, and still people. I will buy a cable release and also a good tripod (I'm think Slik). Buy the way, there anyone know about the modification you can make to the Nikon F so that if you use the mirror lock up, you don't have to waste a frame? I heard there was some kind of modification you can do...where? how much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mskovacs Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 OK I shot a wedding last month in which my F3's spent a lot of time in the bag. 80-200 zoom, handheld, ambient light with -1 to -2 fill. Since the ambient light determine the exposure and within this exposure the 1/focal length rule determines the sharpness of a handheld image, how can I have a sharp image without a tripod at 200mm if my shutter speed is limited to 1/60? Now if you are shooting a flash image with the strobe as the key light and letting ambient fill the background, there are no issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 The Nikkormat FS/FT/FTn was used alot in the 1960's; for its higher strobe X synch of 1/125 sec. With a 45mm GN Nikkor; one even had auto exposure with a manual strobe. A Nikkormat and 45mm GN was a compact rig for its era. There was no flash shoe; one had to use a deal that attached to the eyepiece; to a handle flash holder. With my Exakta's prism; it was worse; the flash shoe just clipped on; the flash would drop off if one ran; or tilted the rig too much. Worse; a bad body latch would allow the prism to fall off too. Many slr's of the 1950's and 1960's even had Strobe synch speeds of only 1/30 second too; slower than the Nikon F's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mskovacs Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Right Kelly which is why my 1950's Rolleiflex had 7 rolls of film run through it for that wedding. Synchs right up to 1/500. I love classic cameras but daylight fill flash is not the forte of focal plane shutters prior to the 1980's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_ogawa Posted July 17, 2004 Author Share Posted July 17, 2004 "OK I shot a wedding last month in which my F3's spent a lot of time in the bag. 80-200 zoom, handheld, ambient light with -1 to -2 fill. Since the ambient light determine the exposure and within this exposure the 1/focal length rule determines the sharpness of a handheld image, how can I have a sharp image without a tripod at 200mm if my shutter speed is limited to 1/60? " So as long as I shoot still objects and use a tripod, I should be alright? My biggest worry is shooting still people on family vacations. I will not use telephoto (such as the 200mm you are talking about). And I will use a tripod on photos which I think are important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mskovacs Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Well that or don't shoot with flash... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sliu Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Paul, you worried too much. Shoot bunch of film with the lens you have now and worry about other issues later. You will learn what you need. Last weekend a bunch of guys including myself spent 24 hours shooting New York City Streets. We shot under all kinds of light and our subjects are people, none of us used flash; We didn't use tripod either (except for my small pinhole camera ;-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Currie Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 The problem I have had with fill flash in daylight is simply that there often is no aperture small enough at 1/60 second or less to expose properly for the ambient light. If the exposure calls for 1/60 at F64, you're just out of luck! Even if there is an aperture available it can be difficult to match that to an automatic flash setting, and even on manual, the flash may not have enough power at that tiny aperture to reach into the shadows (it depends on distance, of course). Add to this that having to shoot at F22 or 32 in order to use fill flash makes depth of field control impossible. Finally, even when it is possible, it can take a fair amount of fiddling and calculation and experimentation to get it all dialed in. Fill flash with an F is something I generally try to avoid if I can. Even a couple of extra stops of shutter speed would make a big difference here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 The Nikon F came out in early 1959. Here are the ASA's of Kodak Films; from the June 1959 E-77 Kodak Color Films booklete:<BR><BR>Kodacolor 32 asa ( 1/60 @F11 for bright sun)<BR><BR>Ektachrome daylight E2 process asa 32 for 35mm sizes<BR><BR>Kodak <b>High</b> Speed Ektachrome E2 process <b>asa 160</b><BR><BR>Kodachrome daylight <b>asa 10</b><BR><BR> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_ogawa Posted July 18, 2004 Author Share Posted July 18, 2004 "The problem I have had with fill flash in daylight is simply that there often is no aperture small enough at 1/60 second or less to expose properly for the ambient light. If the exposure calls for 1/60 at F64, you're just out of luck!" Can't you just use slower film? and get better pic quality along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Currie Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 "Can't you just use slower film? and get better pic quality along the way." Depends on what's already in the camera, and on what lens I'm using. The 50 only goes down to f16, so even with the Velvia 100 I usually use it can be difficult on a bright day. While it's true that I could use even slower film than that, there are times when that would be a considerable disadvantage, such as when I'm trying to catch something with a long slow telephoto. It's a compromise. It's also one of the reasons why some people find digital cameras so appealing - the ability to change virtual ISO speeds on the fly. I try to minimize the problems by having two FTn's with different film in them, but I don't always have both at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leo_tam1 Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 If it really is new, why don't you just pick up another one to use. You won't worry about scratches, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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