Blown-out flash at close distances with SB-900

[rhaytana__tim_adams_]

<p>I just jumped ship from Canon, where E-TTL II was -- for me, at least -- pretty much plug and play on my old 5D. I love the 14 - 24 lens that's on my D700 most of the time now, but am having some problems with overexposed flash that I hope experienced Nikon event shooters can help me with.</p>

<p><strong>Equipment:</strong> D700 camera, 14-24mm G lens, on camera SB-900. I'd love to do the Strobist thing, put the D700 in commander mode and get the SB-900 off camera, but that's not practical in the type of shooting I do.</p>

<p><strong>Camera settings:</strong> Aperture priority mode, ISOs from 800 - 6400, and I try to keep the shutter speed below 1/50th. Switching from TTL-BL to TTL hasn't made a difference for testing purposes. For that matter, neither has switching from aperture priority to shutter priority mode to manual mode. Same results.</p>

<p><strong>The problem:</strong> Mildly to seriously blown-out / overexposed flash in shots taken at distances of two feet or less, indoors in dim light, with apertures of 4.0 and larger. If I stop down to 4.5 and smaller, I usually get good results.</p>

<p><strong>More information:</strong> Keeping the wide flash adapter down and the diffusion dome on always helps at least a little, whether the flash is pointed straight forward or straight up. </p>

<p>If I'm a foot to a foot and a half away, I usually have to put the flash straight up (with the diffusion dome on) to get a reasonable picture. Pointing the flash head straight down usually will give me that dreaded blown out flash look. </p>

<p>If I'm four feet away, on the other hand, I get the blown out flash look if the flash head <strong><em>isn't</em> </strong> pointed straight ahead. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, these results aren't consistent. I spent the afternoon testing the camera with a friend, and some shots from two feet with the flash pointed straight forward were just fine. Inconsistent results means lots of chimping and plenty of lost shots when I'm shooting at an event.</p>

<p>A brief experiment with TTL automatic aperture mode flash didn't produce especially promising results. I just might get distance priority manual flash to work, but a few tests here at home suggest that it will produce inconsistent results too.</p>

<p>The distance reading on the flash LCD has been all over the place ... but yes, it's usually indicating that I'm too close when I have this problem. In other words, it's telling me I gotta be four feet away, when I want to shoot two feet away. </p>

<p>The trouble is, if I want to frame a shot from two feet away, and the shot won't be the same if I step back two feet, then I've taken a big, big hit in the range of photos I can shoot. If I didn't have this problem with E-TTL II on the Canon, I can't help but hope that I can resolve this problem with the Nikon. </p>

<p>The SB-900 has worked well otherwise. </p>

<p>If you have any ideas, Nikon shooters, I'd love to hear them. And if you're pretty convinced that this is something I'm going to have to live with, I'll be better off finding that out now. </p>

<p>Thanks in advance for your help.</p>

<p> </p>

[seanbreadsell]

<p>I am no expert at all on the SB-900 as I only just got mine myself but one of the first things I was told to do once I had the flash was to update the firmware. Have you done this as yet?<br>

<a href="http://support.nikontech.com/cgi-bin/nikonusa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=16174&p_sid=noGA2Zkj&p_lva=13783">http://support.nikontech.com/cgi-bin/nikonusa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=16174&p_sid=noGA2Zkj&p_lva=13783</a></p>

[nina_myers]

<p>I shoot a lot of indoor events, like concerts or DJ club stuff.<br /> I use a D300 with SB-800 connected via sc-28 cord.<br /> I'd like to see some examples of your good shots VS bad, so that i might look at the environment, and problems that could arise.</p>

<p>First pointer, that i learned from a friend.<br /> Use manual mode, flash and camera. IMO and experience, TTL or aperture priority has always caused inconsistent results, or undesired effects.<br>

<br /> eg: Nikon 35mm f/2 lens; A=f/2 - 3.2; shutter at 1/30 - 1/50; ISO 400 - 800; flash 1/128th power w/ diffuser, held 4 ft. from subject, left of camera and just above eye level, sideways.<br /> <img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3501/3205125434_d320ed6432.jpg" alt="" width="332" height="500" /><br>

eg 2: Tokina 12-24 f/4; A=f/4; shutter at 1/8 - 1/15; ISO 800 - 1600; flash 1/64th - 1/128 power w/ diffuser, held sideways, make sure to point the red focus beam at the subjects face.<br>

<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3111/3224811962_c280e0fd6f.jpg" alt="" width="303" height="500" /><br>

if you can, please post some of your examples.</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<p>I don't have an SB-900 but my hunch is that at 2 ft and ISO of at least 800, you are too close. The minimum distance given in the manual for ISO 100 is 2ft - have a look at page F-16 for the full table. You may need to reduce your ISO setting or use a negative exposure compensation on the flash.</p>

[christiaan_phleger___honol]

<p>Shooting at F4, 800-6400 and Only 2ft away? No wonder its blasted! Old guy voice: Back in the day you actually had to compute the f-stop based on distance and ASA. Now would be a good time to review. SB-900 is GN of 111 at 100ASA. Minimum flash level is 1/128. You can do the math but its pretty clear that if you want to climb in that close, dropping the ASA even to 640 or 400 would give more consistency. I find myself dialing down the exposure comp on flash when doing the wide/inclose stuff.<br>

Seriously, I use the SB-900/D3 and with all that power yes it is very easy to blast it. So yes, you need to refine your close in technique, not all flash systems/shooting styles works flawlessly all the time, as you should know from E-TTL. </p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p>The TTL control has a limit to how small it can make the power. You need to 1) lower your ISO, 2) reduce your aperture, or 3) add something in front of the flash which attenuates the light.</p>

[ilkka_nissila]

<p>To be more precise, the flash power isn't controlled by the TTL exposure system, but the duration of the flash, which affects the total energy of the flash.</p>

[alastair_anderson]

<p>I'm missing something here. I can't grasp the "big, big hit in the range of photos" that you can shoot if all that's required is to reduce ISO. Even the D700 yields better IQ at ISO 200 than 800.<br>

All I can think of is that you normally set automatic ISO, and having to change that interrupts what you're doing. Is this the case?</p>

[frank_skomial]

Read about minimum distance of the flash in any Auto mode. It is there in your flash manual. I believe it is 0.6 meter, or perhaps 2 feet. That is why you need to use MACRO switch on SU-800 and macro flashes that goes with it in the macro kit.

 

Alternatively get SC-29 cord and move back or reflect the flash to comply with minimum distance requirement.

[rhaytana__tim_adams_]

<p>First -- as I've said on other forums in which others have tried to provide advice to me on this -- I'm grateful to all of you for taking the time to help me with my problem. (And Nina Myers, please let me compliment you on the especially nice bottom shot of the DJ!) Ilkka Nissila, your comments seem particularly in line with what I've experienced so far; thank you.</p>

<p>My response to your answers might seem a bit mule-headed, but I'll make it anyway.</p>

<p>I can, already, with my limited knowledge of Nikon CLS, work around this problem. Just stopping down to 5.6 helps. By accepting a reduced range of my equipment's capabilities -- lowering the ISO, stopping down the aperture, stepping back from the subject -- I can get a shot.</p>

<p>But I'm now worrying about something, working around something, that was never an issue with Canon E-TTL II. With a 580 EX on my 5D and the Canon 16-35 -- as badly as that lens may compare to the 14 - 24 -- I could blaze away at close subjects, distant subjects, with the lens wide open and the ISO all the way up -- and get good exposures every time.</p>

<p>Some might feel that the Canon equipment covered up for poor shooting habits. Fine with me! I shoot events, and don't want to fiddle with camera settings in the field. I now have something to worry about that I didn't have to worry about only a few months ago.</p>

<p>I blame myself for not renting Nikon gear before taking the plunge.</p>

<p> </p>

[dan_south]

<p>Hi Tim,</p>

<p>When using flash close to your subject the simple solution is to lower the output of the flash. With your SB-900 mounted and powered up and your D700 powered up, press and hold the flash button with your left hand and dial in a value of somewhere between -2/3 and -2 with the front command dial. Review the results in the LCD and adjust accordingly. Just don't forget to set the flash compensation back to 0 (zero) when you're finished.</p>

<p>Another suggestion is to bounce the flash off of a wall or the ceiling instead of pointing the flash head directly at the subect. Good luck!</p>

[christiaan_phleger___honol]

<p>You should also consider getting whatever new flash Nikon releases that is smaller. The SB-900 is pretty powerful, and you obviously need lower power, like the lower power Canon flash you used to use. Besides, at under 2 ft, the difference in distance from the sensor to the flash tube on top is enough to add/subtract distance.<br>

Dude, not a big deal! You're putting too much into the fact that the Nikon has more power than you used to shoot, and your technical style of F4, 800-6400 ISO and very close in can still be used IF you make some small adjustments to how you shoot. Not a big deal, photographers have been making small adjustments to their technique due to changes in the equipment for a long time now.</p>

[rhaytana__tim_adams_]

<p>Dan, thanks also for your responses. I'm afraid I have tried flash exposure compensation, all the way down to -3. Yes, it's a help ... but not enough. </p>

<p>I wanted to log in quickly because I think I sounded a bit grumpy about the advice given. None of you had to take time to try to help me -- but you did, and some of you obviously put a lot of thought into your responses. </p>

<p>Please understand my frustration: </p>

<p>Two months ago I had, past tense, a camera system that I could point at objects a foot away, at the highest aperture setting, wide open, on plug and play E-TTL II, with no problems. Good flash exposures just about every time.</p>

<p>Today, present tense, I have a flash system I'll have to watch out for, and will have to work around. Until last night, I hoped that I would learn here that this isn't the case, that there is a recipe I can dial in to consistently and easily work around this issue. I now think that there isn't one. I will have to do work arounds to get what I could get automatically with Canon gear. </p>

<p>But, on the bright side, I now have a vastly better wide-angle zoom lens, and better autofocus.</p>

[christiaan_phleger___honol]

<p>I think you just need some time to really dial in the Nikon flash and get to the point where it is 'plug and play'. It seems to me you can set it at 5.6, ISO 640 and lean as far in as you want and it will be fine, just can't use F4 like you use to. I too had a period of adjustment with the D3/Sb-900, I find myself doing slightly more +/- exposure comp than I used to. I think I'd take the 14-24, D700 and SB-900 over a 5D, 16-35 and 580 any day even if it meant shooting at 5.6.</p>

[eric_arnold]

<p>i'm a little confused why you would use flash at all if your ISO is 6400. you should be able to get a pretty good exposure in dim light with a d700 by itself.</p>

<p>looked at from another perspective, if shooting flash, why such a high ISO? why dial in 6400 when 800 or maybe even 640 would suffice? aren't you just asking for trouble?</p>

<p>but if you insist on using flash at such a high ISO value, you need to change one of the other variables, such as dialing down flash power, increasing shutter speed, or narrowing aperture, until you find the right combination for the results you're looking for. a little trial and error is all it takes, maybe even some quality time with the manual, but it sounds like you're merely experiencing a learning curve in switching from one system to another. a 5d can't even shoot at ISO 6400--3200 is only available in extended mode--so you are literally comparing apples to oranges. point being, you can peel an apple, but it wont taste the same.</p>

<p>also, it would help if you posted some shots so we could see exactly what you're talking about.</p>

[Ed_Ingold]

<p>READ ILLKA'S POST! It is short, to the point and accurate.</p>

<p>Flash compensation won't work if the flash power is already at its minimum (1/128 full power). ISO 6400 is too great for flash work - period! Use ISO 400 or less for flash, and over 400 only for available light. The diffusion dome cuts the light by about 2 stops. More important, it evens out the hot spots when working with wide angle lenses and distances less than about 5 feet.</p>

[dan_south]

<p>The Nikon flash system is very impressive. Joe McNally demonstrates its capabilities well on Nikon's "Speed of Light" DVD. Also, check out Dave Black's site for heavy-duty Nikon flash tips.</p>

<p>Try shooting at a low ISO (200-400) as others have suggested and step down the aperture if necessary (f/11, f/16). Sorry, I forgot to mention this earlier.</p>

 

[rhaytana__tim_adams_]

<p>Thanks for posting.</p>

<p>I've got a thread going on about this at dpreview too, and just might possibly if I'm lucky be making headway.</p>

<p>I wish I could take 'er down to a lower ISO, but for event shooting, no can do. Or no want to do. People go into dark places, I follow 'em there, take pictures of subjects who are in a hurry and rarely pose for me. Even if the flash freezes action, I don't trust myself to hold the camera steady at less than 1/15th of a second at the absolute lowest, especially with that big (wonderful) 14-24 hanging off the end of the camera. I'd much rather have a high ISO, a reasonable safe to handhold shutter speed and a medium aperture.</p>

<p>I bought the camera for high ISO, and already am getting some excellent shots with flash at ISO 6400, albeit sometimes with struggle, compromise and chimping. I should mention, as a sidebar: I <strong><em>am</em> </strong> getting better pix out of the Nikon rig than out of the Canon.</p>

<p>Diffusing the flash seems to be doing the most good so far, and is what I'll focus on when I next do further experimentation. Even if it's ungainly. Putting the wide flash adapter down helped, the diffusion dome helped some more, and still more help came from the addition of a big, ugly, effective Lumiquest on-the-flash-head softbox. I'll stick more stuff in there, if need be, and won't much worry if I draw juice from the Nimhs while doing so.</p>

<p> </p>

[eric_arnold]

<p>tim, being able quickly dial down your ISO is why the d700 has a dedicated button for it. it only takes a second. i wouldnt shoot people shots without a diffuser in most conditions. people in clubs love to pose IMO -- that's why they're there, after all. sometimes you just have to ask in the right way.</p>

<p>btw, isn't "struggle, compromise, and chimping" the mantra of every DSLR user?</p><div></div>

[rhaytana__tim_adams_]

<p>I love that shot, Eric!</p>

<p>I'm going to go the 'diffuse diffuse diffuse' route, and see if it works. If it works (or doesn't) I'll update here.</p>

[rhaytana__tim_adams_]

<p>It's too early to tell for sure, but I think that the 'diffuse, diffuse, diffuse' approach worked. </p>

<p>I found this web site maintained by an obviously skilled photog: http://home.comcast.net/~dougsmit/bounceflashtoys.html </p>

<p>which discusses homemade diffusers. He mentioned clear bubble wrap; boy, do I have plenty of bubble wrap. I cut four sheets to size, gaffer taped them to the front of my Lumiquest softbox, and, in experimentation today, did not blow out at close range at ISO 6400, f3.2 and 1/25, with the flash pointed straight ahead. The shot was ugly, but it didn't blow out. </p>

<p>Cautiously optimistic. That's me. For now.</p>

<p> </p>

[ramon_v__california_]

<p>insisting on using the flash (a very powerful one at that) and choosing not to manipulate other variables, the "diffuse, diffuse, diffuse (and diffuse more)" should have been the first approach, if it was me................<br>

when i do indoor events, even if i end up not using them at all, i always carry two flash units --- one low power and the other, high power that i can dial down.<br>

have fun with your experiments. one of the best things in digital photography.</p>