waterden Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 I have a Leica MP with CV21 / Rokkor 40 and Elmarit M 90/2.8. I am considering an additional body. I use the lenses in this order 90, 21, 40. I love the bright v/f of the MP but wonder whether I would find an M3 better for the 90. The M4 has relative rarity attractions, while the M6 has a meter. What is the advice of the respected contributors to this forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_morris4 Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 An M3 is very nice for 90mm, if you can get by without a meter (or can get Huw Finney to put one in for you). For 21, of course, the finder doesn't matter much. And if you get an M3, then your second camera won't remind you about the slow rewind on your MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic_. Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Try using your MP for a roll WITHOUT using the meter, and see if you can get good pictures. IMO, the meter was the biggest advancement in Leica M cameras in the last 20 years. I've tried the M2, M3, M4, just could not get used to not having a meter. Unless you are over 50 years old, and lived in the pre-meter era, get a metered body. M6TTL 0.85 would be my recommendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronald_moravec1 Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 i love my m3 especially for 90 amd 135. I have had it for 20 years, but I`m not sure it would be a good investment today knowing the rangefinders are deteriorating and fragile. I have done many portraits with the 90mm and it is great. Consider a .85 m-6 ot m-6 ttl. I would really like you to get another MP or M7. How about a Bessa r2 as a backup while you save your sheckles. Really nice m-3`s are going to be 12-1500 and 2500 for a mint and the viewfinder deterioration has more to do with age than use. An m3 is not much good with a 40 mm lens anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic_. Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 PS. All this cultic thinking regarding the M3, M2, and particularly the M4, is a bunch of hooey, designed to froth up rabid collectors or snobs. The M6TTL can hold its own against any Leica M body. You will wear out and turn to dust before the camera wears out, assuming there's film left by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnmarkpainter Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Vic, It isn't 'cultic' thinking....the M3 and M4 are just REALLY smooth and nice to use. I have both. That said...an M6 is certainly more pratical. I got a beater M3 for $500 and had it overhauled. It is wonderful. I shoot a 135 Elmarit with Goggles and it makes the 135 a pleasure to shoot. I got a near mint M4 for $900 and had it overhauled. Also a totally luxurious camera and the loading is easier though I don't think that the M3 is that big of a deal to load once you get used to it. If I ever get another M, it will be an M6 so that I have a metered body. You can get a nice one for about $1,100. jmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_brewton Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Martin, I shoot an M4 w/o a meter and do okay. I still get several shots a roll that are either over or under exposed, but I must say I get a lot of pleasure NOT using a meter and getting great shots. Yes, I'm over 50 and I suppose that gives us old farts (comparatively speaking) an advantage since we all shot in the days before built-in meters. I also have a M6 TTL .85 and I never miss a shot with it. I usually have one loaded with color and the other with b/w. Sometimes I load both with b/w and use my digicam for color. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 M6 is great for its meter, you could get one of the viewfinders which does make the 90 really usable, almost like an M3, those will cost you around 200 bucks. In my mind, the M3 is a great unit. I don't believe they are fragile. Mine is a basic truck it operates perfectly well now as it did in 1956. I did drop the thing, breaking one of the mirrors and had to get that replaced, but that would have happened to any camera. And its had the needed CLA that any camera would need every few years. Great unit. For a meter you can use a little hand held or even a VC meter that fits in the shoe, they work good but mine was a little flimsy, works great now, though its held toghether with the help of some tape and you have to tape down the iso wheel. I'm sure this doesn't sound very attractive, but I may just have a bad one. It however, is pretty accurate and great on the M3. So, end of the day, its your choice. I do think, in the final analysis, an M6 "classic" is probably the most efficiant choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew n.bra hrefhttp Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 As far as high-magnification finders go, I have both a M3 (0.91) and M6 TTL (0.85). The M3 has far and away the best framelines and focus patch for 90mm work. No contest. However, as others have noted, can you live without a built-in meter? For B&W and colour negative work you can be a little sloppy with exposure, but for colour transparency you have to be exact (within 1/2 stop). I was forcefully reminded of this when I shot a test roll of Fuji Astia 100F recently - half the roll had to be tossed because either everything was way under or over (yet it couldn't have been more than a stop either way). I used the film in my M3 and now know that if I'm to use that particular film again, then it's got to be in the metered M6 :?/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_neuthaler Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 You're forgeting the most accurately-metered M -- the M5. It also has a fabulous viewfinder & features no other M has. It will take you at least 5 minutes to get used to it. You will be converted (as I have been) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoresteen Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Well, I'm an old fart at 51. And yes I prefer bodies without meters (I have 3 Pentax SL bodies - Spotmatics sans meters). I have always used hand helds meters and I swear by my Sekonic 508 Zoom. There is not a better camera for the 90mm than the M3. I just bought one on ebay in exec shape for $711. It is serial # 1090488, 1963, single stroke. I was pleased with the condidtion. I had one from 1979 to 1988 then sold it and it was a mistake! Right now the M3 is on it's way to DAG for a CLA & mods. Martin, I'd really consider the M3. Your only other choice is the M6 .85. Look at the $ and decide. For the difference in price you can get a super Sekonic meter that will do every thing including flash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajabbi Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Anthony, I'm a much older fart at 72 and the M5 is the finast M ever made. The rewind alone for old and older Farts is worth it alone. If you want to use ta hand meter instead of the most accurate meter Leica ever produced, just leave out the battery. as paul said, five minutes of handling and you will be totally sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_a. Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 I was in a simular situation. I actually sold a black paint MP since the finish is so cheap. I used those funds to buy a late serial number M6 classic black chrome which is at DAGs now for an MP VF upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moore_photography Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 If you're looking for an M3 I have a user condition in excellent mechanical condition for sale. I'm planning on sticking on ebay pretty soon, but I'll sell it here for $500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_morris4 Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 It looks like several people would really like an M3 with meter. Maybe I should make one (like Huw did for his LTM Leica).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy m. Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 <i>All this cultic thinking regarding the M3, M2, and particularly the M4, is a bunch of hooey</i><p> Not really IMHO, the M2/M3/M4 are obviously better built than the M6 and are the product of a time and ethos that will never be repeated.<p> I sold my M6 as soon as I felt and used an M2. My negatives come out of the soup remarkably consistently exposed. That said, I never use slide film.<p> The M6 is a wonderful tool, and a beautifully crafted camera, but in all honesty, if most of us were only interested in "tools", we would be using Nikon FM2s or Olympus OM1s (some of us do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic_. Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 John and Andy, Yes, the M3, M2, and the M4 feel smoother because their gears are made of brass, and they feel tighter, probably because they are 2mm shorter and have less moving parts rattling around in the bodies as they don't have a meter. But is that a necessary (or even sufficient) reason to buy these models over the M6TTL? Do photographs come out technically better with them over the M6TTL? I've used all the current lenses (for testing purposes), and every shot came out perfectly, including night shots with the Noctilux. The meter in the TTL is a superb aid to the amateur. No need at all for bracketing shots. The M3 didn't work for me as I wear glasses and couldn't see the 50mm framelines. Another thing to consider is that the M2, M3, and M4 have metal where one looks through the viewfinder (versus the M6, M7 that have a softer non-metal material), and this tends to scratch eyeglasses unless one fixes the "problem." The M3 is no good if one uses a 35mm lens, as the viewfinder cannot accomodate anything wider than a 50mm lens. Using the goggles gizmo is a nuisance. All other models are a better choice if the 35mm is going to be used a lot. At the end of the day I couldn't deal with "no meter" in the camera. With medium format it's not a problem using an external meter because I use a tripod, and speed is not a priority. Martin, one should see all the angles before making a decision. At the end of the day I hope you have a lot of fun. Best wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterden Posted June 18, 2004 Author Share Posted June 18, 2004 Thank you all for your very useful comments. I suspect the M6 .85 is the route I shall take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patricks Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 or spend your money on some top glass, e.g. a leica 35 asph (either f2 or f1.4) might be another way to go... you got 'very good glass' for your MP, but why not go for 'the best'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic_. Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 You might also wish to read these excellent sites: http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm http://www.nemeng.com/leica/index.shtml http://www.imx.nl/photosite/leica/mseries/choosem.html http://www.imx.nl/photosite/leica/leicahome.html http://www.imx.nl/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhk Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 As far as the M2/M3/M4 metal eyepiece scratching glasses -- I tried somewhat unsuccessfully to make use rubber O-rings to slip over the eyepiece. But I just got the Leitz snap-in plastic for the metal eyepiece from DAG which works like a charm! And it's only $15.00 and it fixes this nasty problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzdavid Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Patrick had a good suggestion, I think. Or why not go for a new 90/2 Summicron? But I agree M6 or M7 with 85 mag finder would be best. Doesn't the MP offer this choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hans_berkhout Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 do you need a hot shoe? do you like the older flash sockets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o fragasi Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 try the m5. Great camera, great meter, very ergonomic. Did I mention it's a great camera? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl_keung Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 get an MP, it has the same smooth mechanics of M3/2/4 and a much improved viewfinder, these are the two most important atributes which mark Leica apart its Japanese copycats. Someone here said MP has a slow rewind knob, come on, if you want things quick, you would not be using Leica in the first place, Leica is about through and through manual operation, that is what people enjoy in Leica. You want fast, pick up a digital camera then, no rewind is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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