Keep or sell negatives

[lucid image]

I have been in the business for a short while now and am still

shooting analog film. One question I have been getting more oft than

not in my wedding meetings and at the one bridal show I have done is

do I sell or retain negatives. My resounding answer has been no and

than I go into the spiel about copyright, blah, blah, blah. Recently

I had a meeting and the client told me that out of the 6

photographers they had met with, 2 did and 4 didn't (digital

photographers gave high-res discs). My question is should I be

looking at selling my negs, with a list of established developers for

enlargements(less work, less time, less money), and if so for how

much, or should I be developing my album sales (extra work, extra

time, potentially more money). I just want to see what is the market

standard and get some feelings.

Thanks, Sean

[kimberly c.]

After 3 years I now give the negs away after 6 weeks, One day I looked at my

office and all the binders and boxes and I said "what am I doing? Im not a

large studio with staff, Im not a retailer, its their day and their wedding for

God sakes just give them the negs", of course my price went up several

hundred dollars, but all my clients love it and also most of my clients live at

least 300 miles away fom me so you can imagine that hassle. Also when im

doing a wedding in 2004 and really focused and obsessed with it, the last

thing I need is a bride from 2001 telling me she needs 2 more 4x6's. but who

am I??? -K

[timberwolf1]

Times have changed due to easily available scanners. Consider that the most popular wedding gift may become a scanner rather than a yogurt maker. The motivation to scan the wedding photographer's images cannot be ignored.

 

The Client needs prints soon after the wedding to proudly show her event. "Soon" may be defined as 2-3 months here. And in addition, she needs a historical record to show her youth: prints can fade, and there is some value in being able to renew old images if there is a destructive fire near these prints.

 

If you are a good marketer, you will think of the needs of the Client, and construct a price to meet their needs stated above. You will ask a number of questions as to how much they would pay if you sold so and so CD or group of negatives. You then ask yourself if you can run a business with these prices and reward for your work.

 

You may have an incidental need to build up your portfolio, but this need is met through making copies for yourself. You would then give yourself the right to retain and use a copy for yourself in your contract. Mary Ball tells me indirectly that fashion cycles will make any old pictures you keep of early Bridal/Wedding work less useable to yourself as time goes on. On the other hand, older images prove you are experienced.

 

I believe that clients really don't know how much fun there is to owning a CD album or a website; and they cannot compare something they know little about with a wedding album they have never owned. So, you are in a good position to give them choices and prices.

 

From my years of experience, decades of experience, I have found that the client can well be insulted if you were to spring the idea on them of just taking the negatives rather than taking any prints alone. You see, they really want a professional's stamp of approval, the original photographer's "signature" of quality with a delivery of prints. They want the pro to be responsible until the very end. You would think that they would just grab the negatives and call it square, but they are suspicious that you may have errored and are quickly opting out. They want to be proud that they chose an artist, too.

 

With these considerations you should be finding a 'day rate' for your time, and then bill for that in a round about way using various combinations of services. Remember that prices vary in different areas of the U.S. due to local "economics." So, getting an answer from a photographer in New York or San Francisco will be different than Idaho. Therefore, you should "find your level" with comparable areas.

 

And then there is the whole matter of numbers of pictures taken. And how much time color correcting in digital, correcting flaws of all types you are willing to be responsible for in your contract and end products.

A local photographer here in San Francisco charges $91.00 for an 8x10 here. But he is required to make the print very perfect. This takes time. Be ready to sell your time.

 

Therefore, your need for a "market standard" is better met by polling in similar counties to your own with "similar" level photographers (don't you hate that) as yourself. If you were to call 20 photographers, you would have a beginning.

[Jerry_]

Give up the negatives with your work (and future) on the line.

 

 

 

 

Great idea! If the client happens to fingerprint (or worse case, splash a little cola on the negatives) and then goes for a few more photographs, who is going to be at fault? Not the client. It is your name as a photographer that goes out the door with the negatives: you have lost control of where the client goes for reprints. Not the best way to handle business, but you have to make that decision....

 

 

 

I can't wait for the Honda dealer to let me 'borrow' the tools in the dealership's garage: that will save me paying labor for fixing the ol' Honda.

[adrian_morgan]

Or Gerald, have a house fire and loose everyones negatives! Great idea. I don't know if the everyone's contracts covers what happens if there is a fire where you store your negatives.

 

When you consider what is really needed to look after negatives, it is a lot of work, and a lot of responsiblity. i'd prefer to go out shooting than do admin.

 

When I shoot a wedding the client gets everything, including 6x4 prints, and the negs. I give some recommendations as to where to take the negatives to in order to get good prints, B&W and color and give them a quick lesson in what the difference is between lab prints and custom prints. Works for me.

[alvaro_buitrago]

I can speak as a customer. I got married in late 2000 and my photographer promised to give me the negatives, medium format, one year afer giving me the album. He was true to his word. We actually got them a little later only because we ended up ordering a few extra copies when we first went to pick up the negatives. He gave us some basic instructions on how to keep them, and told us that if we really wanted re-prints from him, he could always do them, but he is not really in the business of making re-prints. I noticed that some of the negatives had scratches, but they were barely visible on a couple of 5 X 7 we ordered last year.

 

As a customer getting the negatives was very important but waiting a year was not. I did not want to "cheat" the photographer of the additional revenues from the re-prints; on the contray he did such a good job that we bought extra copies and upgraded the album. My wife and I wanted him to handle everything.

 

I suggest that you give the negatives or digital copies but take your time. Give them after you have completed your work and delivered all re-prints.

[Jerry_]

"Or Gerald, have a house fire and loose everyones negatives! Great idea. I don't know if the everyone's contracts covers what happens if there is a fire where you store your negatives."

 

 

 

 

Acts of God are that. Insurance on your office or house: that makes one a bit less restless. (The same line of reasoning could be said for the client's home going up in a fire, tornado, or hurricane, no?)

[melisa]

Hi Sean, I'm just getting started myself and so far I am very protective of my work. I don't give up my negatives because I want control of the final image--not Wal-Mart one hour, etc. The majority of the work I've done is because clients have appreciated my photography and part of that appreciation is due to my lab's excellent handling of prints. Right now, while I'm making a name for myself, I want quality. Word of mouth is a powerful thing and who's to say that a potential client sees a nasty reprint hanging on the wall and decides against you. I know that people are going to want to scan, but I try very hard to educate them so they respect what I'm doing. It may change in the future if I start running out of room to store everything, but for now I like to hold onto my art.<div></div>

[kimberly c.]

Everyone acts as though the only lab in existance is walmart. for the most part

we are dealing with adults and when these adults see the nice proofs they

receive, walmart will not compare. Think about how many photographers are

out there that you cant find after the wedding or it takes months to get

reprints, people are too busy to deal with that. And if their house burns down

Im sorry. Its a small investment for a fire safe, I on the other hand cannot

afford the firesafe addition I would need to add on my house for all the negs.

[cjogo]

For the past 8 years---we give the negs...do not want to be responsible for archiving them any longer --- No upset bride or families wanting quick orders filled or worrying about cropping/colour, etc >>>> We even hand over the unprocessed film for the budget priced wedding..let them deal with it. We had bags of negs from 20+ years ago... we tried to contact them---now we have thrown them out finally....But our market is maybe totally different from many --- we rarely see our brides before the wedding date and never after--they usually reside from several thousands miles from our studios. They all fly in for the big day and all back to their perspective states.....

[ShunCheung]

<I>... we rarely see our brides before the wedding date and never after--they usually reside from several thousands miles from our studios. They all fly in for the big day and all back to their perspective states.</I>

<P>

Where are you located, Las Vegas? I guess your business practice/model is indeed very different from most people's.

[adrian_morgan]

Gerald - If a clients house goes up in smoke, then I am not responsbile for the loss of the negatives

[cjogo]

... we rarely see our brides before the wedding date and never after--they usually reside from several thousands miles from our studios. They all fly in for the big day and all back to their perspective states.

"Where are you located, Las Vegas? I guess your business practice/model is indeed very different from most people's."

 

 

25 years >>> Pebble Beach~~Carmel CA

[think27]

I was in Stowe, VT for 10 years and 80% of my weddings were out of towners.. Destination weddings... Often I did not meet the bride until the day of. Even then - I insisted that I keep the negatives until the final enlargements for family/friends and albums are done. I've shown my clients a few prints that I had done at a pro lab and the same prints done at the pro lab I use. I have 8 different versions of about 7 images. I'm educating them on why I need to complete the job by producing the final product. Clearly my lab demonstrates in this example that they do a better job. <p>It is my reputation at stake. <p>I also tell them it is like hiring an interior decorator who picks the colors/furniture/wallpaper etc.. and just drops it at your door. <p>I will give the negs after the order is placed. I also don't give them a time limit and have found that this helps rather than hurts my business. 1-2-3 and even 4 years later I've filled orders... I <em>always</em> have 2 to 6 orders in house for fulfillment. The last one was 4 years later and she ordered two image boxes, a Seldex album and a 36 page Library bound album and $200 or so in reprints... Go figure! <p>I was married last August -- I am a bride with images that I have yet to put into a wedding album and get enlargements to frame... Have I done it yet? No. Will I do it sometime in the future? Sure. I'll think about it before every anniversary and one of those times I'll actually do it.

[cjogo]

We average about a 22 % divorce rate in 5 years...and if would be very difficult to keep a data base of new address every two years of clients moving around the country ...many now are scanning our proofs and printing their own..can't compete... We still have several clients, from over 8 years ago , never ordered their prepaid album? >> Just give them the negs--explain that the photographs included are your best quality and that if they wish reprints, at their local lab ..just have the prints along with them to match!! We charge a simple flat $650 per hour and average 7-10 rolls per wedding. No fuss No mess..Especially from some new couple~ 2000 miles away from the studio. With scanners of 3-4000 dpi now for $100..they are going to scan!!

[kimberly c.]

C JO- Right!!! you can not keep track of people like that, to Mary - dont you

ever get a tad bit annoyed? come on be honest ;)

[johnsloan]

As far as the scanning issue is concerned, I have found a way to make it very difficult for the client to do well. The lab I use (Millers Professional Imaging) offers a texture on their proofs for about $4 a roll more. I tried this on a roll and have used it since. When someone tries to scan with the texture on the print, they end up with a lot of white "noise" through out the scan. Works like a dream!

[think27]

Kimberly - annoyed by what? How long it takes some couples to place an order? Nah... I have a constant flow going all year round. By educating people about why I won't give them the negatives until I complete the final album/enlargements? No - I think it is worth it. <p>You see - I don't have packages that include a final album. They are only paying for my services and the proofs are included along with a small inexpensive 4x6 companion album of my favorites. So - When they place an order I get a deposit and the balance upon completion.. It means I have a steady inflow of money. I only guarantee the prices for a year.. After that it is subject to increases.

[timberwolf1]

The value of selling negatives is that the bride will want a memory of her parents when

they pass away, whether there was a divorce or not. I would never sell negatives until the

contract time period has elapsed. Otherwise, they could sue me for "giving up". To be

even safer about all this, sell them after the Statue of Limitations expires on any contract,

usually 4 years.

 

I find it is easy to contact people after 10 years or 20 years merely by asking them for the

names and addresses of relatives at the time they sign my contract. One of them will

know where "they" are. It just takes alittle more thinking about this problem to solve it.

 

The days of storing negatives hoping for more sales is past. Digital media is really forcing

many photographers to think about getting all their money "in front".

[cjogo]

We generally have a large $700-1000 deposit 12 to 9 months in advance..so good cash flow there....the balance on or before the wedding day....Prints are shipped in several days and the negs follow the next week. Job done and paid --no loose ends. We have only been able to find 4% of our brides after 2 years..they move/ divorce, etc. >>> so we gave up years ago >>> to try and sell an album or reorders.. Just charge accordingly for the film release--~just add up your total sells, for an average wedding, ~ and collect the same amount of money , with no hassels!

[think27]

Sean - As you can see there are varied opinions here. It surprises me that some photographers look at fulfilling the order as a "hassle"... Why I wonder? <p>I never have to "find" my couples for reprint orders. They know where I am. I don't even call them or e-mail them. Especially now with websites, even if I move they can find me. Furthermore, with e-mail addresses - they are easier to find. <p>I honestly have had only one hassle. It was a bride's mom that wanted me to put some of her snaps in the final album... ugh. <p>Maybe I'm just different but I get such satisfaction from putting together the final album and making sure the reprints are perfect. I love to see some of my shots blown up to 5x7 or 8x10 and many times improved by my very talented lab... I also can not stress enough that even without tracking down my couples, most of them come back to me for orders. I know that the prints hanging in their homes are truly representative of my expertise because each print has been carefully scrutinized. I've sent prints back to my lab on occassion as good as they are - because perhaps the print is too dark or the skin tones too red or magenta. I can also steer my couples to a better choice in their picks for enlargements. It is not a hassle - it is a joy and I take great pride in presenting the final product as it should be printed and the album - as it should be designed. I never worry that some badly printed image is framed in their house.

[fotografz]

I agree, I think it is a changing landscape, primarily due to digital. So many wedding and

event photographers (along with journalists) are switching to digital that it is actually

driving R&D of the camera companies. (and visa-versa).

 

I've pretty much stuck to providing a turn-key service: everything from the shoot through

the album and a couple of display prints. Client gets everything usually with-in a month. If

I shoot film, I scan the really good stuff for my promotional use before turning everything

over to the client including the negs. All of it is contained in an archival "keepsake" box

from Light Impressions.

 

I have a preferred Lab that knows my work, and even has a profile written for my prints. I

send the clients to them for any print re-orders like for a Mother-in Law album.

 

Digital is a no brainer. I just correct the best stuff, burn multiple DVDs, and even burn a

DVD of the RAW untouched files for the time when all functions in PS are 16 bit and the

RAW developers improve even more than now. The DVDs are locked so the originals can't

be ruined.