camera shake on tlr

[richard_temple1]

Am I doing something wrong? Are my expectations wrong?

 

Having read the medium format and nature photography forums I bought a

Manfrotto 190Nat2 (Bogen 3205GN) with the 141rcnat (3030g) head and a

nikon a2 shutter release cable for my Yashica 635 tlr.

 

When I set everthing up, focussed on my bookshelf and fired the

shutter I noticed that the image in the viewfinder jumped. Indeed I

can clearly see the camera move when I release the shutter.

 

Is this normal? Is there a way to reduce this vibration?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Richard.

[victor_randin]

There is a rule of thumb for tripod shooting: the shorter a shutter speed the more vibration, the more a shutter diameter the more vibration too, particularly when using a light tripod.

 

My 2.8C jumps even on a heavy Linhof tripod, while the 3.5F and the T are silent when shooting either handheld or tripod.

[art_haykin]

Chances are, with fairly brief shutter speeds, the shakingtakes place after the shot is taken. Check it out.

[joseph_albert]

Also, what is the surface on which the tripod is placed? if it is

a low friction surface like an uncarpeted floor, I'd expect the tripod

to move. My Gitzo and Velbon carbon fiber tripods are virtually worthless

at holding a camera steady when they sit on a finished hardwood floor.

[richard_temple1]

Thanks evereyone,

 

Victor, I was using the fastest speed (1/500) and cannot see any vibration on 1 second. I guess it makes sense that a large fast moving shutter would cause vibrations, but while I have often read about mirror-slap in SLRs I had never come across "shutter induced vibration".

 

Art, I will do some experiments on Sunday - but I expect that you are right as 1/500th of a second is pretty short.

 

Joseph, the tripod was on carpet but I shall certainly tuck that information away - by the way what do you use for camera support on a polished wooden floor? The spikes!

 

Richard

[roger_michel]

i must say i am astonished that there could be enough moving mass (even at the high speed at which the shutter operates) in your leaf shutter to move the tripod. having said that, there was an article recently in view camera or some such in which the author claimed that the copal 3 shutter (admittedly a monster) was torquing up his view camera assembly and causing visible blur. anyway, an obvious solution for your problem, perhaps already suggested, is to add mass to the 'pod. may 'pods have a hook on the botoom of the main column for attaching ballast. a camera bag, brace of quail, bag filled with rocks/sand works great.

[tim_brown5]

How long is the release cable? I find that a long (>2ft) cable helps to isolate hand movement.

[val_a]

The "problem" with Bogen 3205GN is a central column. The partial solution is to get rid of the rubber stopper on the bottom of the central column and use two holes (they are already there) to attach a hook. Now you can hang on some weight (your backpack or bag). Probably you know that the central column consists of 2 pieces, for convenience you can leave 1/2 at home.

[mediumformat]

Using my Mamiya C220 TLR on even a cheapo aluminium tripod (that I keep at work) results in zero camera shake with a 12" cable release. Are you sure the cable release is correctly attached to the camera, and that the release plunger is correctly adjusted so that it does not push down too far when you hit the button?

 

If the plunger is not adjusted correctly, it can easily push too far and cause camera shake when released. The plunger should go down just far enough to trip the shutter.

 

I'd double check the cable release, plunger, and the attachment to the camera. It shouldn't shake at all.

[richard_srienz]

Richard, many of these old shutters have a second, stronger spring for the shortest time (1/500 sec). You feel the stronger resistance if you change the speed from 1/250 to 1/500. I have made the experience that these shutters work with nearly no vibration up to 1/250 sec, but 1/500 gives strong vibrations.

[doug_brightwell1]

I'd like to know more about the suggestions to add mass to the

tripod. I use on a Gitzo 410 tripod. There is no center post, and

because of the leveling head I have installed, there is no center

hook. I can however wrap small 10lb Mathews "boa" sand bags

around the area where the legs attach.

 

Will this eliminate/reduce the vibrations that people say are so

characteristic of the aluminum legs? Will it eliminate/reduce

vibrations due to wind? (I'm invaribaly shooting landscape in

windy places.)

 

I'm intrgued by the notion that even though the construction and

materials are the same, simply adding weight dampens

vibrations.

 

Doug

[mark_hubbard]

This is an interesting thread to me, because I realize I intuitively lean my weight on my camera when taking a picture with a shutter release cable. While some might argue that my hand would *increase* movement, in practice any movement my mass adds is much slower and therefore less visible in the negative than the *quick* movements that can be caused by small vibrations, wind or releasing the shutter.

[richard_temple1]

Tim,

 

The cable is short but I press down gently and notice no shake on 1 sec.

 

Val,

 

The 3205gn has a detachable "low angle adapter" at the end of the column. This is a triangular plate which can be used to turn the 3205gn into a column-less tripod. For my test I was using it this way without any leg extension.

 

I think however that I have found the problem.

 

1) the vibration is visible at most speeds but only obvious at 1/250 and 1/500 and barely discernible at 1/100 (when is a stop a stop).

 

2) I think the problem is in the camera not the tripod. When I cock the shutter the camera clearly dips even though the tripod is clearly rock solid. Even though the (manfrotto) qr plate is firmly attached. The camera is simply not rigid enough and this problem is probably exacerbated by the positioning of the tripod socket behind (as opposed to on) axis of the camera. This socket is located about two third along the path from the lens to the back of the camera. As most of the camera's weight is in the lens ...

 

So we seem to have identified the problem : anyone got a solution?

[leopold bratislav]

You can do some quick, repeatable tests with your methods of reducing / measuring shake by affixing a laser pointer to the top of your camera and shine it on a dot on the wall at some distance. Have somebody else trigger the shutter while you watch the dot on the wall. You could create a grid on any computer/printer to help you observe the movement of the dot. Any shake is easily measurable and repeatable. You could even use a little trigonometry and calculate the actual shake of the camera. Certainly more measurable than analysing photos 2 days later. Plus you don't waste film.

Cheers all,

 

Paul N.

[doug_brightwell1]

Another quickie method to detect vibration... I bought a small

clear plastic box that came in two halves, like a lid and a bottom.

Tap plastic has them. About one inch wide. I filled it about one

third full with water and glued the two halves together.

 

When I'm concerned about wind vibration, I place the box on top

of my 6008i and watch the surface reflection on the water. The

slightest vibration will show up as a disturbance in the surface

reflection, even when the volume of water itself doesn't look like

it's moving. I wait until the surface reflection is still, then fire the

shutter.

 

This procedure has made me wonder how anybody has been

able to take large format landscape photos of the American West

and have them turn out sharp... due to wind. Maybe it's possible

with wooden cameras and tripods?

 

Anyway, it also allowed me to see that even after pre-releasing

the mirror, which I do all the time, there is still a vibration from the

electronic shutter release... hopefully after the shutter has

closed.

 

It's also demonstrated that, at least on my aluminum Gitzo tripod,

the automatic 2-second mirror pre-release built into the

10-second self timer is not time enough to allow the vibrations to

subside before the shutter is released. Once I saw that, I made a

point of using the electonic cable release and waiting several

seconds after the mirror was up before taking the shot.

[doug_brightwell1]

BTW, I still hoping someone will explain the physics of how

adding weight to a tripod will dampen vibrations, despite the fact

that the materials and structure of the tripod haven't changed,

and that the weight hasn't specifically been applied to where the

vibrations may likely occur... in the legs themselves.

 

I don't dispute it, just want to better understand it.

 

Doug

[joffre_swait]

Doug,

By adding extra weight to the center of the tripod, one is doing two things: (1) increasing the mass of the entire tripod and (2) compressing/tensioning the legs (image a component of the ballast force vector in the axis of each leg). Both of these effects will help to stabilize the tripod. Clearly, however, if excessive weight is applied, one would eventually reach the point where the legs would bend/fail, but that's a LOT of ballast!

[mark_hubbard]

Paul and Doug,

 

Thank you for your brilliant suggestions -- those are the types of gems that make participation in this forum so rewarding for me.

 

I realized as I read on that some of us are talking about two different things. For instance, when I say I add the mass of my hand to the top of my camera to reduce vibration, I'm talking about exposures of a quarter of a second or shorter (even up to 1/250) -- in other words, I'm exchanging wind-caused and camera-caused "short" vibrations (like a bell ringing) for the comparatively slow vibrations of my hand (slight movement of the whole bell but no ringing). The comparatively "fast" shutter speed "freezes" the slow vibrations more effectively than it does the faster vibrations.

 

However, using your hand to add mass and reduce vibration is not such a great fix if you're talking about multi-second exposures. Adding mass to the tripod (a bag full of rocks) is a "coupling" device. Assuming the ground is stable (we have to qualify that out here in northern California), then the more your tripod and camera are coupled to the earth, the more still they will remain.

 

Also, think of the difference between hand-holding a 3 ounce Canon Elph (or any other light, small camera) and a Mamiya RB67 with a metered prism, 250mm lens, and grip (at 13-1/2 pounds). I guarantee you that you're going to get more camera shake with the Elph than with the RB (even with its huge mirror flapping away inside), simply because of the inertia of the mass of the heavier camera.

 

Again, my thanks to those who contributed to this thread -- it's great to keep learning!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark Hubbard

[victor_randin]

Doug, the camera/tripod vibration issue depends on physic law of resonance. A mirror/shutter slap excites vibratory motions of a tripod traveling in waves damping out. A light tripod is more sensible to weak vibrations of a low frequency level, which are more affecting the film exposition process. The worst situation we could have when the camera�s (mirror/shutter) own vibration agrees with the tripod�s own vibration. The best way to decrease a vibration level is using a good weighty tripod equipped with a hydraulic dampened tripod head that use in video shooting.