difficulties of tilting Fuji 680iii vs. Toyo 45 Aii

[chin-fan so photography]

Hi all,

 

Since tilting Toyo45Aii take up most of my time that usually make the

good lighting gone, I am wondering if tilting Fuji 680ii will be much

faster so that I can subsitute LF with 680, can anyone that had used

or know both camera give me any comments?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

Chin.

[art_haykin]

You seem to be saying that you use tilting on most or all ofyour shots. If so, what subject matter do you usually shoot?

[chin-fan so photography]

Half of the shots i take will have far-to-near focus sharp on the ground or water. Hope this answer your question.

 

chin.

[david_goldfarb]

I haven't used the 680, but I shoot large format, and it's really just a matter of practice on any camera. If you can't figure out your tilt before the light goes away, then read up on focus technique and work on it. If you use tilts fairly often, I would go with a large format camera, because you will have more flexibility and range.

[rayn]

The 680 is a really BIG camera. It's designed for studio use. The pics of it and the stats can be misleading. I rented one here in Portland Oregon and was really surprised by how big the thing was. The Toya is much more packable. Other than size, it's a wonderful camera. Built very solid, rugged.

[gary_frost1]

I agree with David. If adjusting tilt on a 4X5 is slowing you down

that much, you need to practice with your camera. Whether base or

center tilt, there are quick methods to set tilt by focus on the GG.

The typical problem is too much tilt is applied. A fine touch is

required and perhaps a geared adjust would help the jittery.

A roll film camera can speed up some of the process of large format,

but tilt would not be a significant one for me. The smaller GG would

be more of a problem.

[patrick_drennon]

Chin, I don't know if this will help but I have had a GX680III for

about 9 months and I use the tilts and shifts alot. I've shot LF

(Sinar F) for about 15 years and had some problems with the

speed even with practice. For ME the 680 is alot faster due to the

image brightness and position. I find using the 90 degree finder

or waste level makes composition, focus check and DOF

insurance much faster, but that may be due to some inherent

weakness in my LF technique. The 680 is easy, intuitive and

flexible (not as much as my LF though concerning movements).

[chin-fan so photography]

Patrick,

 

but do u find 680 also faster than LF in doing tilt shots?

Some said it's slower because of the area is smaller.

 

Thank you

Chin.

[djphoto]

Chin, I've been using the Fuji GX680 for more than a year for people, product, architectural, and illustrative work as a full-time commercial/editorial photographer. My Sinar F is long gone and not missed.

 

The GX is very large, no question about that. But it is not all that heavy. In fact, a GX with three lenses only weighs two or three pounds more than a Mamiya RB67 with a comparable lens set, and will shoot rings around the RB. And I should know -- the RB was my primary camera system for eight years.

 

The Fuji is very quick in operation, because you have a magnified view of the groundglass that lets you see instantly the effect of every movement. No more opening the lens to focus, then closing it to shoot. And no more fumbling around under a dark-cloth, holding a loupe against the groundglass with your eyebrow while gropping around the front of the camera trying to make adjustments in tilt or shift. The GX680 is a great piece of equipment.

 

Check out this web site: www.gx680.com.

[jim_chow]

I think you need more practice with your particular camera. I

shoot with a Toyo VX125 monorail and using tilt is a cinch. The

trick is how much to use...this takes practice. It doesn't matter if

you're using a tilt-shift lens for a SLR or a view camera, focusing

is the same once you apply tilt (ie, conventional DOF rules go out

the window, and the DOF takes on a wedge-like shape). The

main problems with using movements on field cameras are

interference from the back for rear movements (the box) and the

bed if it requires dropping. I can see how this can takea lot of

time. With a monorail, you can just level off the bubble levels and

apply any movements without having to touch the tripod head. I

can setup and shoot my 4x5 in as little as 7 min if I'm rushed,

but, of course, it depends on how difficult the scene is to set up

the proper movements. Most near-far shots aren't so difficult, but

if there's a tall tree in the foreground, it complicates things. If the

light is changing too quickly, I usually bag 4x5 altogether and

grab my 6x6 (backup)...at least I can salvage a shot, though it

won't be optimal. Heck, if you think about it this way ("oh, I wish I

had shot it on 4x5" when you shot it on MF), you'd be shooting

8x10 for everything. :-)

[chin-fan so photography]

Jim,

 

me 2, I salvage a shot by my Mamiya 7ii, the first phot in Banff National Park Landscape shoot by Medium Format Camera in http://community.webshots.com/user/zcfszcfszcfs was this case.

But just wondering Fuji680 can substitue my LF and non-moveable 67.

 

Thank you for your advice.

Chin.

[chin-fan so photography]

Thank you for all your comments, let me try pratice more and more on tilting the Toyo, if i can do that as fast as a Fuji680, i may not have to change it.

But there are still cost problem, one 45 quickload (us$2.75 per sheet in B&H) is more expensive than a roll of 120 (it's us$2.3 a roll in Hong Kong).

[chin-fan so photography]

Dave,

 

what u said at the end sounds very attractive, seems like it's what i want, if u have to brinf this to the field, will u think it's too heavy? it's almost 15 pounds with 3 lens 1 back and batteries. May be it's too heavy for back packing, but it will be good for short distance walk from the car.

 

Thank you.

Chin

[chin-fan so photography]

Patrick,

 

may i ask what subject do u shoot with 680?

And may a binocular in LF speed up the tilt focus process close to Fuji 680?

 

Thank you

Chin.

[patrick_drennon]

Chin, I shoot still life and people (all studio) w/ the 680. Dave hit

it right on the money in his post. If I want to shoot a low angle

shot requiring a shift I just take it off of the camera stand and

handhold it, no way to do that with a monorail. I've done all of the

calculations with a monorail and still have to check DOF and

compostion, it's just so much easier and faster with the Fuji. I've

not used the Sinar F since I got the Fuji and have yet to wish that

I had. When I get back to the house tonight I'll e-mail you some

examples of work from the Fuji.

[chin-fan so photography]

Patrick,

 

That's very amazing to hand held a tilted camera, thank you in advance for the Fuji photos.

One question: when u use your 680, how many % of times u think u have enough time to set up and shoot with a 45?

 

Chin.

[jim_chow]

15 lbs for the Fuji! Whoa! If you're willing to lug around that much

weight, you ought to be shooting 8x10! The Fuji still gives you a

miniscule 6x8 neg. Since I've been shooting 4x5, MF chromes,

even 6x17's, look kind of small. :-) 8x10 is truely breathtaking,

generating wall-sized enlargements that you feel like you can

"walk into." The Toyo AII is a lot lighter than the Fuji. My VX125

with four lenses (90/5.6XL, 150/5.6 XL, 210/5.6, 300/9) in

technika boards, quickload holder, loupe, spotmeter, plus 95mm

81C, 81A, and Kaseman PL weigh only 11.5 lbs!

 

As far as tilts go, like I said before, practice, practice, practice! I

once tested a $7000 tilt-shift lens for a 6x6 slr system, but didn't

know anything about DOF theory with tilts at that time, so I didn't

know how much/little tilt to use and how to properly focus the

lens despite having slr and full matrix metering capabilities. In

reality, the amount of tilt one uses is typically very little. It's

dependent on both the focal length of the lens and how high the

lens is above the plane of sharp focus. If you set the lens, say, 6

ft off the ground and want the plane of sharp focus to parallel the

ground using a 150mm lens, you only need about 5 degrees of

tilt. If you're shooting flowers and need to get close, like 3 ft away,

you need to use more like 10 degrees of tilt. Seldom does one

use 12 deg or more, unless you're using a 300mm lens or

something like that. I only find setting tilt very tricky when the

vertex of the wedge of DOF is underground and there are tall

objects in the foreground. In this case, you need to set the vertex

of the wedge of DOF underground and have the plane of sharp

focus intersect the image just in the foreground of the

composition and bisect the tall object at the midpoint (and stop

the lens down until the top of the tall object is sufficiently sharp).

To estimate the depth to set the vertex, I usually select an object

behind the point at which the plane of sharp focus intersects the

ground which is equidistant from that point to the camera. I then

estimate how high the plane of sharp focus is above the ground

at that distance (I'm using simple geometry of bisecting angles),

which gives you the depth underground. From Merklinger's

formulas, you can estimate the amount of tilt (the amount of tilt is

a function of the arcsine of the focal length of the lens and the

distance the lens is from the vertex of the wedge of DOF). If

you're really gung-ho, you can plot the tilt vs. lens height for each

lens and refer to the plots in the field. :-)

 

I'd highly recommend reading Merklinger's articles on using tilt

(on his webpage in pdf format). Okay, only scientists and those

obsessed will like reading mathematics equations, but the math

tells you what's going on.

[chin-fan so photography]

Jim,

 

Thank you very much for the information. For me, I have 2 way to estimate the tilt angle: (1) imagine the lens plane and films plane extend to the ground, then I will tilt the lens to make these 2 plane intersect on the ground. This method using imagination to extend the 2 plane is not very precise. (2) 2nd way is to focus the top part of the focusing screen, tilt the lens plane until the bottom object clear, then refocus the top, then tilt until the bottom clear, so on... and repeat.

Is the 2nd method alright?

For wide angle like 80mm, the screen is a bit dim, so it's pretty hard to see the top and bottom image. So most of the time, I will just use the 1st method although it's only a approximation.

Do u mind to share your way to focus just a flat ground?

 

Thank you

Chin.

[djphoto]

Jim, Chin, & others . . .

 

If you have a large format temperament, you have a large format temperament and that's that. "Di gustibus non est disputandum." But for many of us, very, very good is good enough, and we feel no need to gild the lily. If you can make enlargements you can "walk into," that's fine. I don't make enlargements that big, and wouldn't walk into them if I did. Each photographer needs to discern the kind of temperament he has and choose his tools accordingly. If you frequently find yourself frustrated with the slow pace of large format, then you would probably be happier with something more convenient.

 

I've been a commercial photographer for a long time, and, like many commerical generalists of my era, found it essential to know how to use 4x5 because some clients demanded it. So I can use it, and use it fairly well. But I have never liked it, and when I was able to get comparable results from a much more user-friendly camera, the Sinar F went back into its case on the shelf for a nice, long rest.

 

The main point of the GX680 is that you can *see* what you're doing at all times. I don't need to learn to visualize or estimate proper tilt, etc., because I have a magnified view of the ground glass that instantly shows me the effect of every movement. And when I need to react quickly to what I see, I can do so. I don't need to close the lens, stop down the aperture, load a film holder, pull the darkslide, cock the shutter, and finally, make the exposure. Assuming the light hasn't changed or the subject hasn't long since departed for parts unknown.

 

I can set up the GX from scratch and be ready to shoot in a couple of minutes, and even if it weighs a little more than some 4x5 outfits, that's a price I'm happy to pay for the speed and versatility. And I don't have to carry a Hasselblad for backup.

 

How much does your 4x5 outfit weigh with the backup Hasselblad, Jim?

[chin-fan so photography]

Dave Jim & others,

 

what about Rollei SL66, it can see the tilt effect right away and it's lighter than both 45 and 680?

 

Thank you

Chin

[djphoto]

True, but the Rollei front moves only up and down, and is extremely limited. The GX680 gives full front movements.

 

Have you handled the Rollei? It is smaller and lighter than the GX, of course, but is by no means a small or light camera.