Zorki 6 or FED 3?

<p>This is my first post, so please go easy on me. <br>

I am a very amateur photographer - the extent of my photography is limited to only using a Holga 135BC. I want to get a decent film camera. What I would really like to own is a Leica M6 or M7, but, being fresh out of college and very in debt, I cannot afford such works of beauty. I will say that one of the main reasons why I love the Leicas, is the look. Having just found out that the USSR had camera companies like Zorki and FED make Leica copies, my question is, which brand should I go with. My funds are very limited, but I have been able to find both the Zorki 6 and FED 3 camera online, for less than 100 dollars US. I do like the FED 1&2 and the Zorki 4, but I prefer the film advance on the Zorki 6 & FED 3. This would just be a beginner camera for me, so the quality of the lens is not super important, I'm assuming that both companies have similar lenses anyway. My main concern is being able to keep the camera on a strap around my neck, and from what I can gather, the FED 3 does not have strap attachment points. I would appreciate any input I can get on this topic. Really, the camera isn't going to be used for any serious works of photography, more used just for fun. And, I wanna look like this <a href="http://www.coldplaying.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4442">guy</a>...no pun intended :)<br>

Ryan</p>

<p>I'm more or less in the same situation like you Ryan,with a low budget and looking for former Soviet Union rangefinder camera,but I'm not a beginner to photography,I'm an amateur in my 50's that had been addicted to this hobby or art since adolescence and in and out of it in several times during these years.<br>

The FED 3 doesn't have the strap lugs indeed as you mentioned but you can get easily one with the leather case easily if you google it.I believe that FEDKA:http://fedka.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=39&products_id=326 might carries it and have at least one in stock.Email them and find out.They're a reputable dealer,I was told in another photo forum.<br>

Attached is a picture of one FED 3 with the leather case attached.<br>

I'll be following the replies to this thread due to the same interest I have expressed above,but I'm also open to other brands and models as the several Kiev 4.I'll prefer one with a working lightmeter,but i understand it's not easy to find a proper working one,since they are selenium and most of them no longer function or are inaccurate,but I found a web site where proper and detailed instructions with photos are described to repair o non working selenium lightmeter on the Kiev models.<br>

Good luck,<br>

Robert</p>

<p><img src="http://ysfine.com/kobak/fed3.jpg" alt="" width="800" height="500" /><br>

.</p>

<p>Robert,<br>

Thank you very much for the information. Again, going straight off of looks, I would have to say that I prefer the FED 3 to the Zorki, and yes I have found a few with the case included. Question. Do you know if most of these leather cases open the same way as the attachment above, as in you don't have to take the camera out to use it? I know I'm not seasoned to be able to quickly set the aperture and f stop to catch a moment quickly, but I would like to be able to have the camera in hand within a short amount of time. I know, I'm being picky.<br>

Ryan</p>

<p>Ryan it's a pleasure :)<br>

I believe that yes,all the cases for the FED 3 open that way,even that the top part that you hanging at the bottom can be detached form the rest of the case,so you will have just the cover of the body of the camera and the straps,without worrying about the top part.<br>

Send an email to them(FEDKA),they are quick to reply.They will have the answer for sure.<br>

Robert</p>

 

<p><em>so the quality of the lens is not super important</em><br>

<em> </em><br>

In my opinion, if you are serious about making good photographs, you need to re-think your thinking on this point. Your picture will never be any better than the optic image formed by the lens. In fact the lens is THE most important part of the camera.</p>

<p>I have had much better luck in avoiding "Leica glow" with FEDs than with Zorkis. I especially like the FED-2 which has the bottom and back together to come off for loading the camera. (Although you haven't truly made it as a Leica fan until you've had to trim leader and load from the bottom only.) It also has an integrated viewfinder and focus, which is really handy. You do need to find one with a case and make sure the straps are still sound.<br>

If you don't care if it looks like a later model Leica or not, the FED-4 is a very nice shooter. The lenses include the excellent Industar-26 and others that are copies of Leica or Zeiss lenses for the most part made in the Soviet version of the Leica Thread Mount.</p>

<p>When clean and in good repair, the FEDs are very capable cameras, and present a true classic rangefinder experience. Many of the lenses are superb.</p>

<p>I personally am a greater fan of the Kiev, which is a copy of the other great classic German RF, the Contax. But that is another story.</p>

<p>I can only compare the Zorki 4 and FED 2, but the Zorki's finder definitely wins.</p>

<p>I really appreciate all the information everyone has been able to give me. To be honest, I really thought that people wouldn't even respond to this posting, so I am truly grateful! I have some thinking to do...<br>

Ryan</p>

<p>Ryan, I was about to say what Alan Peed just said. I second what JDM v W says about the FED-2, which has no lever advance but does have lugs for a strap. It also has what may be the longest base range-finder in the Leica-and-copies family, which makes for more accurate focussing. If you are in the US, buying from www.fedka.com makes a great deal of sense. Not so cheap as eBay, but entirely reliable.</p>

<p>Hey Mukul, thanks for the fedka link. Cool stuff.</p>

<p>You're welcome, Michael. I must point out, though, that Robert Armas gave essentially the same link rather before I did.</p>

<p>Ryan,<br>

First, of all Zorki 6 or FED 3 neither is Leica copy. Or as a matter of fact ever pretended to be one. Prewar FED was, but that was a history.<br>

Second, you can get 3 FED-3 or Zorki-6 for $100. But they all 40+++ years old cameras. Must be CLAed, or...<br>

Third, they all suppose to be in ever-ready cases.<br>

FED-3 is bulkier than Z-6. It also has better exposure range. Z-6 has better rangefinder.<br>

However before you start the venture into FSU camera world you should be extra careful. It is dangerous slippery-slope. Just do not go this way. Stick with let say Holga or Nikon FM10. FSU cameras - they are not cool.</p>

<p>You had quite good advice in this thread,Ryan.I agree with that the lens is the most important part of the camera.Luckily,the FSU rangefinder lenses were based on Zeiss Contax and Leica designs and all are of good quality,some are better than others.I disagree with staying away of FSU cameras.You have a 10 days inspection period with FEDKA or you can chose to perform a CLA if something goes wrong later on for 70.00(you won't find a cheaper one anyway if you chose any other camera and need repair).You can ask him anyway for the specific model you chose and tell him to pick the one in best working conditions.You might find cheaper cameras in other sites included the auction one,but you will have to pay a hefty amount of money for shipping(these come directly from the FSU)and FEDKA is a company based in the US,prices of shipping are low and the company has already a reputation among fans of FSU cameras.I might find time later to post here some links to several places that provide good information about these cameras and lenses,it will be better to go through them and absorb the needed knowledge to make a sound choice.<br>

Robert</p>

<p>'What I would really like to own is a Leica M6 or M7, but, being fresh out of college and very in debt, I cannot afford such works of beauty.'</p>

<p>You might not have the budget for an M7, but one of the earlier screwmount Leicas wouldn't cost that much more than a decent FED or Zorki, and is an even nicer piece of 'mechanical art' than a modern Leica:<br>

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Leica-III-p1030022.jpg</p>

<p>Or how about the Leica-inspired Olympus OM-1, the closest the SLR has come to the classic rangefinder design (not excluding Leica's own attempts), and arguably a much more practical introduction to film photography than a Soviet rangefinder:<br>

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Olympus_OM-1_wtih_50_1.8_Front.jpg</p>

<p>I haven't owned the FED-3 or Zorki 6, but I have owned a few other FEDs and Zorkis (and Kievs). As far as I'm concerned, the Zorki 4k is the easiest one to get used to (again, if you get a good sample) - bit of a bigger viewfinder and has a lever film advance (the knob advances *do* take a toll on your fingers, especially if you get one with a stiff advance) . The FED-2 is quite nice as well, but I find it's harder to focus due to a small viewfinder.</p>

<p>Just a general word of advice after you get whichever model you choose - the #1 rule of FSU rangefinders is <strong>set the shutter speed *after* cocking the shutter</strong>. Doing it the other way messes up the shutter speed mechanism.</p>

<p>Here I prefer the Zorki 6 over a Fed 3; and own both.</p>

<p>*****The FED 3 seems and is a bigger camera; bottom to top deck is 80mm; versus 76mm on a Zorki 6.</p>

<p>Thickness is 32mm versus 30.5mm.</p>

<p>Width (round to round sideds) is 140mm versus 134mm.</p>

<p>RF baseline is about 40.5mm on Fed 3 versus 67mm on a Zorki 6. The RF on the Zorki 6 has a slightly less magnification than the Fed 3 ; thus it does not mean that the Zorki 6's RF is 67/40.5 better!</p>

<p>An ERROR that has been on the web now for 12 years+ is that the Zorki 6 has a more accurate RF than the Zorki 4. The RF baseline is longer on the Zorki 6 than the 3C/4/4K BUT the magnifaction is less; thus it is really about the same.</p>

<p>http://www.cameraquest.com/soviet.htm</p>

<p>Gandys site has had this error now for about 12 years; the Zorki 6 does NOT have a 1:1 magnification; it is less.</p>

<p>I use to buy and sell Russian cameras on Ebay from about 1997 to 2001. I use to mention/disclaimer on my EBAY ADVERTS for Zorki 5 and 6's mentioning that the RF is not 1:1; after I had to get negative feedbacks and eat returns on ebay sales. I base my "opinion" that the Zorki 6 is not 1:1 based on selling and handling many dozens of them. I gave up trying to get that error fixed after too many emails.</p>

<p>The Zorki 6's I handled often had a Rigid mount Industar-50; 50mm F3.5 which is excellent. the most common lens one Fed 3's I have owned and sold is the Industar 61 53mm F2.8</p>

<p>The Zorki 6 has modern hinged back; the FED 3 has the removable back; one cannot load as quickly</p>

<p>The majority of Zorki 6's I have had/have the bigger 3/8-16 tripod mount; one can get adapters for 1/4-20 on ebay. Many of the FED 3's I have and sold were made for export; many have 1/4-20 tripod mounts.</p>

<p>About *all* the Zorki 6's and Fed 3's I sold never required a CLA; maybe 1 out of 2 dozen did; thus I just did not sell them. I use to buy the camera/lens/case in the bulk; one could buy about 10 to say 16 of them for 100 bucks US.</p>

<p>When my Ukraine supplier was running out of ammo to buy; I would just buy others from others in the Ukraine; with the goal to never pay more that 20 bucks for (camera/lens/case/freight to the USA). In early ebay days a complete combo including freight was often just 12 to 17 dollars; all day and night. I would buyt them them check them out and resell thyem on EBAY; Because some folks do not like buying overseas; or any risks.</p>

<p>Buying from Fedka today is sort of like what I was doing 13 to 10 years ago; you pay 2 to 3 times more for somebody to sell you a camera that has been checked out.</p>

<p>Today Russian cameras on Ebay "to me" look like they have absurd prices. When I sold them they cost 1/10 to 1/15th what a user Leica IIIc cost; that a collector would hate to own.</p>

<p>Buying a Russian camera and then wanting to have a CLA done sounds "to me" like absurdity squared.</p>

<p>My experience with FED 2's was just average; they were older cameras. The bulk of all the junk I did not sell (at first) was with this camera; ie shutters had to have the tensions increased. I do not think is a design issue; it is just they were way older and thus worn/old.</p>

<p>Several of the Fed 3's here look basically brand new; they have I-61 lenses with a 1987 date code. The several Zorki 6's have 1965 date codes on the body and lens too..</p>

<p>The zork 6 has 2 lugs; the fed 3 does not.</p>

<p>The bulk of all Russian camera I have handled did NOT require a CLA at all. My favorite Zorki 3C I bought back in 1996 has gone through about 300 rolls with no issues. It is used with my Canon 50mm F1.2 as my poor mans Noctilux rig.</p>

<p>After my main supplier ran out of ammo; I would just place a 20 dollar bill in the mail to get a Fed or zorki with : lens/body/case; and tell them to keep the change. This was for ebay stuff that with freight was say 13 to 17 dollars. I would get the YAK HAIR little brick pages in 10 to 30 days; with a mean of about say 14. ie Ukraine to the USA. I bought many dozens of them like this; and never had any bad deals at all. Before 9/11 freight was cheap; often 6 to 7 bucks for a complete camera to the uSA.</p>

<p>Wow, you all have been a really great help. Kelly, thank you for your very thorough review of these FSU cameras. I think after all that has been said and done, I am going to side with the Zorki. Although the rangefinder isn't as great as the FED 3, I really do like the fact that it has strap lugs and that the ones I'm looking at come with the Industar 50 lens. Kelly - Are you suggesting that going through somebody like FEDKA is just as good as going through a Ukrainian dealer on ebay wih 100% feedback? When it comes down to a $20 difference, it really doesn't matter to me. I really just want the most sound FSU camera I can get my hands on. Also, what is everybody's opinion on the Industar 50 lens vs. the Jupiter 8? Again, thank you so much!</p>

<p>I've bought from Fedka as well as (now defunct) Ukrainian sellers in the past - if you have a few extra dollars, Fedka is a quality seller. As Kelly mentioned, one of the main advantages to Fedka is that he's in New York - so if something does go wrong and you're also in North America, returning an item is easier (not that I've had to). Also, he has connections with an FSU camera repair specialist in NY. I sent him a FED-2 that was given to me - it came back with the quietest shutter I've ever heard in a manual camera :)</p>

<p>Also, I didn't see him mentioned but might have missed it - <a href="http://www.okvintagecamera.com/">Oleg Khalyavin</a> in Russia is also well known and respected as a seller and repair man in the FSU camera world (although he doesn't appear to have any Zorki 6 units at the moment).</p>

<p>Ryan;</p>

<p>When I I bought most of my Russian stuff; I sort of thought that Ukraine and Russian folks were just selling their old "crap/stuff/dresser" drawer stuff to crazy Americans! To some old retired chap in the Ukraine on a palty retirement; a 20 dollar US bill 10 years ago probably had a decent worth.</p>

<p>I am not saying to not buy from a USA seller; just weigh added cost versus risk.</p>

<p>A USA seller allows you to return a dud; a overseas small purchase "return" is really often not practical.</p>

<p>You are basically paying another to go through the old stuff; sort of like paying your neighbor to buy stuff at garage sales. Here I just sort of buy the lower cost Russian stuff from overseas sellers. some folks do not like this; they like to not roll the dice.</p>

<p>Used old Russian cameras are like used Harbour Freight stuff. Even when braned new one had a wide variance of great to fair. Now you added |"used" and "old" and one can get Russian stuff that varies all over the map in quality. That is why folks opinions vary all over the place.</p>

<p>The Jupiter-8 50mm F2 is a good lens too.</p>

<p>The Russian stuff was so cheap eons ago one would get addicted and want to by more!</p>

<p>******A Russian LTM camera takes a subset of LTM lenses; the Russian body does NOT have a roller cam that contacts the lenses RF cam feature.<br>

A Russian LTM lens has a RING. So do most ALL 50mm LTM lenses of any brand;</p>

<p>a NON Russian LTM NON Normal ( non 50mm )often does not have a RING but a stub cam; thus cannot practically be used on a Russian body.</p>

<p>Examples;</p>

<p>(1)Russian Jupiter-8 50mm F2; Industar -22 and -50 50mm F3.5, Jupiter-3 50mm F1.5 have RING cam rings.</p>

<p>(2) A Leica Summarit 50mm F1.5; Summicron 50mm F2; Nikkor 50mm f2; Canon 50mm F1.2 ;have RING cams; THUS WORK ON MOST ALL russian LTM bodies. Then one has exceptions of expceptions! . A Canon 50mm F1.2 With ring cam on its lens will fit a zorki or FED; BUT NOT a Russian Lennigrad LTM with its recessed len flange; the big rear end of this lens hits the body.</p>

<p>(3) An Orion-15 28mm F6 Russian lens with ring cam fits all my Russian bodies; and my Leica; Bessa R.</p>

<p>(4) Telephotos like the Nikkor 85mm F2; 10.5cm F2.5, 13.5 cm F3.5 Nikkor ; Steinheil Culimar 135mm F4.5 have stub cams; thus cannot practically fit on a russian body. ( by practical; I mean one CAN use the lens by opening the shutter to bulb (open) and place ones finger through the shutter and pull back the russian pie/pizza/finger came and attach the lens for that roll). With the Russian Lennigrad LTM body; one can attach the 135mm F4.5 Culimar LTM lens; but not remove it unless one puts ones finger through the shutter to pull back the pie cam.</p>

<p>(5) A 85mm F2.8 Culminar here has a ring cam and will work on any of the LTM bodies.</p>

<p>(6) Close focusing LTM lenses. Most were made for 1 meter closest focus. In the rarer one that focus closer; some non 50mm ones with a stub cam will mount if one focuses closer than 1 meter to mount and unmount the lens</p>

<p>A closeup attachment called a "speed-o-copy" cost 9 dollars off of ebay. I is an old old LTM copy device to use with Leica LTM bodies. With a 50mm lens one can focus from about 16 to 12 inches. If fits on a Zorki 6 here; but not a Fed 3; the body is too big. t</p>

<p>Hi, I am from Russia and I use rangefinders a lot for my hobby photography. If I had to choose between FSU cameras Í´d go with Kiev cameras (say Kiev 2 w\o lightmeter and a nice Jupiter-8). This in my opinion is a perfect FSU camera. Here in Russia we have good choice of FSU cameras, and itś always better to stick with cameras from fifties or sixties when QC was better. I have now zorky-1 (small and beautiful) and kiev-II . I CLA´d them and use them from time to time. Now I have Leica M4, and the difference is stunning, but, nontheless I love my cameras from old times.</p>

<p>I truly do appreciate everybody's input for this topic. I have made my decision, and I am siding with a Zorki 6 with the Jupiter-8 lens. I feel like this will be a great introductory camera into the rangefinder world. Like I said, I am new to the whole photography thing anyway, so this camera will be great to learn from. One day, I would like to upgrade (majorly) to a Leica M6, and then after that delve into the digital Leicas...but that is a long way off! Again, thank you!</p>

<p>Ryan,<br>

Let us all know how your Zorki 6 works out, I am one of those old guy that has a cla done on all cameras about every 10 years or 20,000 frames, just to prevent taking a bunch of poor images. My zorki 6 shows minimal wear with some scuffing where the leather case rubbed the back of it. When I first got it the camera sounded and functioned fairly well given it might have 49 years since last serviced, but the curtain showed that it had sat cocked for a few years. On the bench test the 1/30th was the only speed reasonably accurate, as an old photographer this was unacceptable. I struggled with having a cla done on such an old, low priced camera, but in the end I knew I would never use it until it had accurate shutter speeds. Locally, we have two repairmen who are nationally known for there service of European cameras and other cameras of all types. $90 and a month later it was a smooth accurate camera. I have a number of FSU cameras and the Zorki 6 and the FED 2 type F are my favorites, the FED 3 is also nice and the Zorki 4k is okay but a bit clumsy to handle. FED 4b and FED 5b(v) are a bit bulky but when they arrived they were both reasonably accurated. Last, the Kiev 4am is a very nice Contax camera and focuses easily, it too is in the shop as the lubricants were just too dry and the movements felt sluggish. Also, of the shutter speeds only 1/30th, 1/50th, 1/250th were accurate. The Kiev 2 - 4 cameras are essentially Ukranian made Zeiss cameras and lenses, the difference being a cheapening of materials where aluminum replaced the brass in many parts making the camera lighter and proned to warping of the back gate and front covers, but all in all it functions like the German Zeiss. The Zorki/FED cameras have a better shutter and and stronger casing. I think you have approached this purchase with a lot of thought and good advise. However, I would advise a cla on any FSU camera older than 15 years, it helps reduce the possibility of sudden failure and wasting film, plus if you put the money into a cla you will value your functional antique more. I would like to see your images from the Z6.<br>

Cheers<br>

Roy</p>

<p>Next you will be buying the Fuji X100 ($1000)<br>

you get DIGITAL rot ( price depreciation ) but, you don't have film or processing costs.</p>