dorothy_blum_cooper Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I hope I'm posting this in the right category. I have a question regarding a 'Zone System Wheel' that I found on the internet. I have all sorts of books (The Print, The Negative, The Camera, etc) and have tried my best to understand the system better to implement this with my work. I was hoping someone could possibly explain to me that after putting this (Zone System Wheel) together...how the heck to work it/understand it? I would love to hear a simplified explanation from the technical talent on this board. I'm not a great numbers person nor a math genius, so be gentle :) Here is the link to the page (pdf.) http://www.largeformatphotography.info/misc/zswheel.pdf Thanking you all in advance for your help. Dorothy http://www.dorothyblumcooper.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbq Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 At the risk of being harsh, I don't believe that there's any need for complex tools to be able to apply the zone system. Just lots of patience to adjust your exposure and development times. -for a given film, find out what is the shortest exposure that will still maintain details in the shadow. -spot meter on the darkest area of a scene, on the brightest area of the scene. expose just enough for the dark areas to be exposed. Write down the brightness difference between the darkest and the brightest area of the image. -develop so that after development the contrast on film between the darkest and the lightest area of the picture are separated by exactly the contrast range needed by your fixed-contrast paper. -print. The painful part is finding out the minimal exposure (not too hard), and the excruciating part is to find the development times from a given original contrast to reach a target negative contrast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0002a Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I checked out the website you posted. I would forget about the "wheel." If you don't understand the Zone System, trying reading "Zone VI Workshop" by Fred Picker. It's out of print, but available at many libraries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_benskin Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 The wheel works in a similar way as Zone VI's Zone strips that you place on your meter. Why not play with it to get a better idea of the relationship between subject range, meter settings, and zone placements. It doesn't look like the best tool in the field, but it appears to be a good learning tool. Just play with it for awhile and it should become clear. BTW, Zakia (co-author of Photographic Materials and Processes) designed a wheel sometime back. It is more sophisticated (and larger) than the Zone System Wheel you downloaded. Phil Davis also suggests a wheel type device to take into the field. Try the wheel you have, if it doesn't work for you, try another, or don't use a wheel at all. It's all about what works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_hicks1 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Dear Dorothy, Jean-Baptiste has it in a nutshell: two meter readings (shadow and highlight) and appropriate development. You can establish the latter by painstaking experiment or you can start out with the development that gives you a good exposure of an ordinary 'average' subject on grade 2 or so and varying your dev times with the aid of the manufacturer's time/contrast curves. I'd add that you don't really need the full N+/N- paraphernalia, unless you insist on using a single grade of paper at all times. Establish just two alternative dev times -- something like -15 and +50 per cent -- and take up the slack using VC paper. I'd also add that the Zone System is a sub-set of sensitometry and that some people (myself included) find it easier to understand sensitometry (which dates in its present form back to 1890) with as little reference to the Zone System as possible. The naming of Zones is a work of genius; the rest can be very wearing indeed. If you like the Zone System and find it useful, that's great, but if you find it obscure and foggy, you don't need it. There are at least as many good or great photographers who don't use the Zone System as do. This will provoke the usual hate mail from the more excitable devotees of the System. Cheers, Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_jones5 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Now I don't feel quite so bad. I looked carefully at that Wheel thingy sometime ago and have been scratching my head ever since. I too am patiently waiting for someone to provide a user guide at which time I'm sure I'll feel quite foolish. (or could Luca just be pulling our chain?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige_buddy Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I found one somewhere that is easy to use/make/understand if your meter reads in EV units. It had two pieces to cut out and pin together. You meter whatever subject you want in EV, line that reading up with the zone you want to place it at and read off the shutter/aperture combos to suit. For example, say I meter some shadows and they read EV10, I rotate the dial to line up 10 and the zone III mark, then read the shutter/fstop combos, which happen to be 1/60 @ f8, 1/30 @ f11, etc. Since I have it in my hand, I can tell you it's called a "Zone Dial" by Ralph W. Lambrecht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_stevenson Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Dorothy,...There have been many such DIY devices over the years as well as numerous user methods and explainations of what started out as an attempt to bring a simple fool-proof system to exposure calculation. Unfortunately, most of these failed because they were unable to keep things simple and thus defeated their own object! The best overview and explaination that I have found is that on Barry Thornton's excellent site;http://www.barry-thornton.co.uk/ See his sections entitled; 'zone system' and 'non-zone system'. You might also like to glance at 'finding your own film speed' Sadly, Barry died suddenly a few weeks ago so have a look at these excellent articles while thye are still there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conrad_hoffman Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I have the Zakia wheel, and it does clearly illustrate how development expansions and contractions work, and how to match ranges. Some people have a terrible time pulling graphical concepts from the written word, and the wheel can help with that. OTOH, last time I priced one, it was terribly expensive ($70 or so) for what you get. It's also not the sort of thing you'd take out shooting. Bottom line is you get more from your money with some film and a good book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann_clancy3 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 It has been my experience that the Zone System is much easier to use than to read about. All of the above remarks certainly make sense, and it is also my experience that understanding tone values and how to move them up and down can be helpful to serious user of black and white film. A book that some of my students find helpful is "The Confused Photographer's Guide to Photographic Exposure and the Simplified Zone SYstem" by Bahman Farzad". Fred Picker's Book is also very easy to grasp. For myself, I do the placement in my head and just make the changes as needed. At first this may seem overwhelming, however, wheels, etc. are not my cup of tea. WHen I first learned this system I had a Zone strip that was placed on the meter (spot type) which was a help with the learning curve. The system is not that hard, the language and principles with the writen word can be overwhelming; but in practice it is not nor does it need to be difficult. IMHO many people like to pretend that this is just so hard and how lucky they are to be so smart. It is just another tool that can help us or it can bog us down. It was never meant to be written in stone, rather it was a language and tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db1 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I would suggest 3 things to start with: 1. get yourself a one degree spot meter such as a pentax 2. the zone dial for your meter (can be purchased at calumet) 3. buy "the practical zone system" by chris johnson (third edition). It will make life a whole lot easier. good luck, david Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hans_beckert Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Given the nature of your work (children's portraits: I looked at your web site) and your format (35mm), I doubt whether there is any substntial benefit to your using this device. Much more useful, rather, would be to control the contrast of your portraits by adjusting the light balance through the use of reflectors and flash fill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorothy_blum_cooper Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 I wanted to thank those of you who emailed directly and those of you who posted here to my question. I have a high regard and respect for your talent and your time. I appreciate any and all advice as I strive to learn something new each day in general, but as well with my photography. Again...my sincere thanks to you all. Much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorothy_blum_cooper Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 I also wanted to add that my website is still 'in the works'. I do alot of fine art photography that I exhibit locally (which is not yet up on my website). On occasion, I use my Bronica for this work. I'm hoping to understand the Zone System better so that I can apply it to the photography that I exhibit and hopefully, it will become second nature when I'm shooting in any situation. In general...I use my Canon A-1 for my commissioned session work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger_hicks1 Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Dear Dorothy, If you're shooting in the studio, the light is under your control so you don't need to adjust development times: adjust the light instead. Not knowing your work, it's hard to say, but I'd suggest you need at most two development times: one for the majority of your portraits and another (longer) for high-key. You might also care to look for 'Mortensen on the Negative' -- idiosyncratic, many lousy pics, but every bit as informative on negative exposure and development as his great rival in the 1930s, Adams. Works from completely different premises -- highlight metering, development to completion. Sounds awful; can look great. AA's system was essentially for outdoor landscapes (yes, he shot other things, but landscape was his great love) whereas Mortensen was into studio portraits. Cheers, Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lex_jenkins Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Here's an excellent summary of Mortensen: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Mortensen/mortensen.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catherine_constantinou Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Try Amazon, both USA and UK have had all these books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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