zone system and reflected light metering

i think my question is several fold. actually, they're not really questions but

assumptions that need confirming or bursting:

 

1) i have been attempting to learn the zone system recently, so if i use the

reflected light setting on my light meter, it will produce an average reading of

the scene in front of me (my digisix has a 25 degree field of view), rendering

the exposure at 18% gray or Zone V. Right?

 

2) if i then deem that a shadow area is three stops different from the average

reading, meaning it will expose at Zone II and render shadow detail to be

largely useless, then i should then expose the image for one more stop. Right?

 

3) finally, if i went to the shadowy area and took an incident reading, and then

exposed the image at that reading, would that blow out the lighter areas of the

image?

 

Thank you for all your help. This all used to seem so simple before MF and LF,

just point and shoot. Oh, the pains of growing, JR.

buy Ansel Adams's book "The Negative". It's the definitive source on the Zone System.

Are you shooting film or digital? If film, negatives or positives? How you meter depends on

what you ate shooting.

"Expose for the shadows; develop for the highlights."<P>

 

The Zone system is more about determining the correct film development than with the correct exposure. ("Correct" in this context is a subjective term). You use development adjustment to get the values you want.<P>

 

To address your questions in order:<P>

 

1. Right. Thus, if you do that, a white snowman on a white field will get a photo of a gray snowman on a gray field.<P>

 

2. Right. You will get one stop more shadow detail but you will lose one stop of highlights. To avoid that you would have to give one stop more exposure and one stop less (N-1) film development.<P>

 

3. Yes. Since the incident light meter is in a darker area, it will tell you to give more exposure, blowing out the highlights.<P>

 

Give this a quick read:<a href=http://www.geocities.com/dainisjg/zone.html>http://www.geocities.com/dainisjg/zone.html</a>

IMHO, Zone System works best when you use a spot (1 degree) meter -- this allows you to point to the object in the frame that you want to have at Zone V, and then see where the other objects fall in relation to the Zone V object. You are hinting at this approach by metering the shadows separately from the general image in the frame --

Of course, the Ansel Adams book is wonderful, as is Fred Picker's Zone VI Workshop, if you can find a copy.

Jeremy, Yes, you've GOT to have a spot meter to make it work. A wide field meter or incident meter will never matter. And yes, DO buy Adam's book "The Negative", and also The Print.

 

The first couple times I went through learning the Zone system from Adam's books (this was many years ago), I didn't quite get it. What you're really trying to do is expose and process the negative such that it captures your vision of the image from the darkest area to the lightest area, with as much detail as you want. To do this, it's pretty much dependent on the amount of development time you use. In order to compensate for the amount of development time, you're going to have to also manipulate the exposure. By compressing or extending the tonal range, you can capture much of the detail that you want for various areas of the image.

 

I would also recommend another good starting point that will enlighten you greatly. The saying is "expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights". Do a search on this and you'll find a lot of information, but basically, give the negative enough exposure for your shadow area. Exposure is where shadow area can best be controlled. Then develop for the highlights (the dark areas of the negative). This is a simple control method, and really the essence of the Zone system. The difference is that the Zone system was designed, and used by Adams, to help the photographer visualize the subject based on the zone that a particular part of he subject fell on, based on the spot reading. So if a middle-tone fell on Zone IV, you'd have a pretty good idea of how it would be rendered in a print.

 

I don't know if I've confused you or helped, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it!<g>

Jeremy, One more thing. I thought I should probably actually do a Google search and see what comes up. One of the better threads is here on pnet, regarding the expose for the shadow and develop for the highlight rule. Here it is: http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Hbvj

Jeremy, quite a few photographers here have experience with it, and after years and now

with large format photography, I still don't get it. The basic idea I came away with, right or

wrong, is find zone V and the range of the scene, and adjust or bracket your exposure

accordingly for what you want each to capture.

 

As noted, it was developed for negative film and its transfer value to transparency film and

to digital is limited and is relative to your experience and interest. To me, while many can

rightly argue it's still useful, somehow it's not really that useful if you meter the scene for

the light (incident) and range (spot reflective) and decide what you want. If you shot raw

you have a lot latitude to post-process the image. If you shot jpeg, bracket a few shots.

 

Personally I prefer to learn and trust the light meter in the camera or a separate one and

adjust according to the scene's range and what I want with the exposure. To me, it's the

question, is it worth spending a lot of time learning "the zone system" instead of learning

to take good images? How many photographer ask themselves about the zone system

when they're shooting or do they learn what and how to adjust the camera?

 

Just my thoughts. Good luck.

I am with Scott. I did learn to use a light meter decades ago when in camera metering was not available. I did ok. But given that I want good pictures in exposure and composition etc, i now do not spend much time with light metering and trust the camera and adjust as per my instincts. And all comes out well. But you are obvious younger and might have to go through hat "I will get this exposure right!" period as I did decades ago.

 

But I would not want to relive that time period. Hundreds around here still swear by lightmetering, though. I know it is very valuable for flash balancing, but so is understanding ttl flashes of today ... Take your pick.

Turn the digisix around to the camera and measure for your exposure. Using a digisix as a reflective meter is only valid in a low contrast scene.

 

The zone system was meant to simplify...not complicate.

 

An example: You want to shoot a plain blue sky...how do you decide on the exposure?

 

Point your camera at the sky "between" the brightest (the sun) and the darkest(the sky farthest from the sun) and meter. This will give you a reading equal to the mid point between light and dark sky...mid gray. (pointing your digisix at this same point will give a similar reflective reading if your camera has no meter)

 

You can transfer this same logic to a landscape...'spot meter' the darkest part where you require detail and the lightest part where you require detail and expose for the area of interest. If the difference is too great for the ability of the camera or film you will need to bracket exposures and partially combine the frames, or, change the camera view point until the brightness range fits within the camera ability, or, add or subtract light or shadow from parts of the scene...eg: wait for a cloud, or wait for the light which suits, or add a filter or two...to bring a scene within the cameras ability to record.

 

I think the difference between Adams and most of us is the time he took to think about what the result would be...before exposing. Though he made lots of mistakes while doing it i'd imagine...just like we do.

The zone system was developed for use with B&W film. You expose for the shadows to

capture detail, and choose a development time that places highlights where you want

them. What you learn about metering from using the zone system does help when

shooting slide film and digital, too. But in that case you simply expose for the highlights

and let the shadows fall where they may.

 

I agree that you really do need a spot meter. THen meter the darkest part of the scene in

which you want to capture detail. The meter reads everything as zone V, but deep

shadows with detail need to be 2 stops darker, so stop down 2 stops from your meter

reading. Development time will depend on where the highlights fall.