Zeiss Ikon - redesigned shutter?

Has anyone noticed this claim added recently to the Zeiss website? <p>

"The camera has a metal focal plane shutter specially designed for the Zeiss Ikon camera.

Compared to cameras with similar shutters, the noise has been significantly reduced."

<p>

This could be BS, of course. And it's irrelevant to those of us only interested in the ZI for

hope it gains a digital sibling. But given the obsession with shutter noise, it's intriguing

given that early reports were that the ZI has a standard Copal shutter, which Stephen

Gandy commented was the only component shared with the Bessas. Has anyone got any

more information about this?? Or, indeed, if there's any sign the ZI will make its August

delivery date?

I honestly don't know all the details about the camera, but with respect to the comparison to the Bessa line of Voigtlanders I do recall reading (perhaps on Gandy's website) that the shutter noise of the Bessa R2A and R3A is quieter than than their predecessor Bessas, though not as quiet as a Leica M. When Zeiss says that shutter "noise has been greatly reduced" perhaps they are referring to the same shutter mechanism as on the R2A and R3A Bessas which are supposedly quieter than previous Bessa models.

I'll believe this when I try one. As far as I'm concerned, this camera is vaporware.

So far, cosina's track record has been good.

""The camera has a metal focal plane shutter specially designed for the Zeiss Ikon camera. Compared to cameras with similar shutters, the noise has been significantly reduced."

 

Cosina-built cameras with "similar shutters" include the Nikon FM-10, Olympus OM-2000, the Bessaflex and a couple other cheap SLRs, so the statement could pass the truth-in-advertising test and still be meaningless to Leica users.

The shutterbug feature on the camera's development is now online <a href=

"http://www.shutterbug.com/features/0405theevolution/">here</a>. It tells

exactly why they've gone for the rangefinder market - which is principally

because other formats would have competed with existing Zeiss clients. <p>

Reading how this was an ideal niche did remind me of a horrible cliché: 'We

know there's a niche in the market. But is there a market in the niche?' <p>

Ben Z., the shutter you're talking about is the non electronic controlled Copal which was used before the Bessa R2a and R3a.

The shutter in the newer Bessas needs a battery to work.

 

A big dilemma, you don't only have to remember to change film, you have to remember to change batteries now, too :-)

Oh, then it must be like the one Cosina used in the Nikon FE-10 then.

<...it must be like the one Cosina used in the Nikon FE-10 then.>

 

Most SLRs use shutters with a single set of blades (or curtains). The C/V RFs use a double set of blades to prevent light leaks since there's no hinged mirror, etc. to block light before exposure. Sincer C/V is making the ZI body, I'd assume they'll stick with the double bladed

shutter. I've tried to find out about this but so far haven't been able to. Anyone else know?

Some months ago, I e-mailed Hasselblad at the Zeiss Ikon website to ask about shutter noise. I asked if anything had been done to muffle the noise & was told "No." Simply put, the electronic shutter is used in this camera "as is" with no special modifications to either the body or the shutter to make it quieter. At least that's the word from the marketing rep at Hasselblad.

<p><em>any sign the ZI will make its August delivery date?</em></p><p>Here in Japan, the "date" is commonly (though not officially) given as the second third of September. (If that sounds odd, well, months are commonly divided into thirds for this kind of purpose.) Since the second third can be as late as the 21st or so, and since the 20th (or thereabouts) is the day of the month when the big Japanese photo mags come out, I <en>guess</em> that you have to wait till you read, or have related or translated to you, the content of the next issue of <cite>Asahi Kamera</cite>, <cite>Nippon Kamera</cite>, or whatever.</p><p>I have no more information on this and I doubt that anybody allowed to say anything does have any. Just wait one month.</p>

If the shutter is the same as the R2's, then this camera is doomed before its debut, let alone its price. Then there is the not so small matter of the flaky winder. No, sir. It's Leica all the way, or nothing at all.

I know that Zeiss Ikon shutter is battery dependant. It is really hard for me to believe

it is more vibration free than the mechanical shutter of Leica M, in particular M3.

It costs half as much as a Leica, so must only be half as good and at least twice as loud.

Although the camera body might not be as good, the lenses are as good, or even

better. 50 2 Planar is better than Summicron, 35 2 might be less good, 25 2.8 is

better than 24 2.8 ASPH. I will put my money on 85 2 that it will be better than 90 2

ASPH.

Sure it's half the price of an M7 but it doesn't look like it will knock my socks off. The lenses may be a different story.

Isaac, the shutter is definitely not the same shutter as the R2, which has a mechanical shutter. It may be the same shutter as the R2A or R3A, which have electronic shutters.

<...50 2 Planar [Zeiss ZM] is better than Summicron...>

 

What do you base this opinion on? E. Puts latest review says it equals but doesn't surpass the 'Cron. Do you have other info we don't know of?

One of my cameras is an R2A and the shutter sucks. I am sorry I bought it. If the Z1 has the same shutter then that's a big black mark. Can't anyone build a good m camera other than Leica?

What's wrong with the shutter? Is it not accurate?

The shutter is fine except for its noise.

I have both ZM 50 2 and Sum. 50 2.

 

I agrees with Erwin's opinion. However, Erwin did not look very much into things like

bokeh,colour behavior and the control of flare.

 

Bokehwise, as ZM50 2 does not exhibit much astigmatism, it has the nicest bokeh.

Whereas Sum 50 2 is more harsh.

 

The reproduction of colour has always been more accurate with Zeiss lenses and

ZM50 2 is no exception. Sum 50 2 produces a colour spectrum slightly shifted to the

blue side.

 

Control of flare has been excellent with Zeiss lenses better than Leica.

 

On the other hand, Summicron 50 2 bears the traditional character of Leica lenses. It

produces a very good dimensional feel to the photo. this is why people like to use it

in BW. Its special colour behaviour and dimensional character render the image to

have an elegant look.

 

I like the skin tone produced by the ZM 50 2 but dislike the built of the lens

compared to Leica.

 

Well, they just have different characters, but ZM 50 2 does have superiority at

significant no. of aspect.

Thanks, Joseph. Nice, succinct comparison/contrast of the ZM and 'Cron 50s. Mr. Puts will be commenting on the actual image qualities of the new ZM 50 Planar, and other new ZM lenses, in his upcoming "Zeiss ZM Lenses Part 3" website article. Hopefully, he'll touch on bokeh, color and flare too. (FYI: Elsewhere he lists the 50 'Cron as having an ISO 0/5/4 color profile, i.e. neutral. That's from a standardardized, ISO optical bench test result I assume. Your blue cast may come from the bias of particular films. Who knows...?)

Erwin rarely says much about bokeh, he thinks it is not important. Bad bokeh might

not be important as itself, but it does suggest astigmatism. Astigmatic lenses, apart

from having bad bokeh, does not reproduce the skin texture very well. Avoid

astigmatism in portrait photography.

 

I find most pre-asph Leica lenses have blue shift in colour reproduction.You will see

that when you scan colour negatives before retouching in photoshop. Some people

might not see it because of individual variation in colour perception. Despite the

claim by Leica that they say the colour reproduction is neutral, the slight blue shift is

there.

 

The blue shift could explain why Leica lenses have good performance in BW. Filtering

of the green colour improves contrast.

 

Another way of seeing the blue shift is by seeing through the lens. I often do this

comparing the colour of Leica and Zeiss.

I e-mailed Andre's original question - the one that started this thread - to www.zeissikon.com & received the following reply from Dr. Hubert Nasse of Carl Zeiss AG:

 

"In fact, the shutter of the Zeiss Ikon, which was developed by Cosina, is a mixture of both (unique & stock components). They buy the parts from Copal - like the blades, the linking levers, & the blade guiding structure. These parts are then combined with a Cosina-made electromagnetic control system. Thus, the Zeiss Ikon shutter shares parts with the Bessa shutters, namely the visible ones; some other parts are specially made for the Zeiss Ikon, namely those that are not externally visible, and they are more sophisticated than in the less expensive Bessa bodies.

 

"The timing control system of both shutters is different. This is also reflected by the fact that only the Zeiss Ikon shutter control allows a permanent exposure lock. You'll find another difference in the auxiliary shutter, i.e. the light integrity blades; this is the grey front surface which you see when you remove the lens. It has been modified to improve the metering sensitivity pattern.

 

"There are also aditional measures for noise reduction. The Zeiss Ikon shutter is more quiet than the Bessa shutter. Of course the low level of the Leica cloth shutter is not fully matched with the blade shutter. But to make such a similar cloth shutter in low production volumes at an affordable price is economically impossible and a risk in terms of reliability and lifetime. Thus we decided to use proven and reliable parts from Copal and tune them a little bit - the same basic concept that is used in some fine cars.

 

"We expect that series production of the Zeiss Ikon will start in October."