Your Thoughts Concerning Harassment

<p>This isn't a new topic, I know but I'm curious to hear how others might have handled this situation.</p>

<p>Lacey Hughes (another PN photographer) and I recently spent some time photographing the Pacific Northwest. During our journey we considered photographing a Shell Oil Refinery. We decided on a county road, a location some distance from the refinery property. It was our intention to capture the tens of thousands of pin-point lights on the horizon using wide angle lenses, long exposures, and small apertures.</p>

<p>After capturing several shots (some good, some not so good) we were approached by a security vehicle from the refinery. The rotund guard stepped out and greeted us and we kindly returned his greeting. He asked us what we were up to and I told him we were photographing the lights. He immediately became belligerent and in a dickish way said, "And now you're gonna show me some I.D." while stepping a little further into my personal space. Without responding to his request for I.D. I offered to show him the photographs so that he could see that it was just lights (I was using a 17mm lens on a ff body about a mile from the refinery property boundary). Apparently this meant that I was refusing to provide him I.D. because he got on his radio and said exactly that to his dispatcher. I told him I wasn't refusing to show him my I.D. but that he, as a private security guard well outside his jurisdiction would have to come up with a better reason to see it.</p>

<p>His dispatch basically told him that if we refused to provide him with I.D. then he should just document our plate number and return to the refinery. He got in his car and literally spun the tires to pull forward 20 feet, then slammed on the brakes (tires chirping/screeching on pavement and gravel) and was out of the car before it stopped moving just a couple feet from the car. He began scrutinizing Lacey's car, moving with purpose from front to back, hastily scribbling things down on a notepad. I think he might have touched Lacey's car or something and she said something to him. He shouted something back about <em>just doing his job</em>, got in his car, and sped away.</p>

<p>A couple minutes later, a State Trooper pulled up and gave us the same post-nine-eleven spiel the security guard had tried just moments earlier. He reminded us that we are fighting two wars, blablabla to which I responded, "we're taking pictures of lights... <em>Lights</em>" and again offered to show him our photos to put his mind at ease. I told him that Google Earth would have much better images of the refinery than anything Lacey and I could ever dream of capturing but he said that "...the enemy needs eyes on the ground." Lacey asked if he thought we were terrorists. He didn't answer. I later wished that I would have asked him what the point of fighting all these wars was if two American photographers (one of them a veteran of <em>both</em> wars mentioned) couldn't take pictures from a public county road whenever they damned well pleased. Unfortunately, I was getting a little pissed off with all the attention at the time and didn't think of this when it would have mattered. We considered staying, to prove a point but decided to just leave, frustrated and disappointed.</p>

<p><em>We've always been at war with Eastasia.</em></p>

<p>Sounds like you handled it the best way possible, other than getting video to share with us for amusement and edification.</p>

<p>You do know that during times of conflict, since the early 1900s, refineries have traditionally been designated as secure areas of national importance. So, it isn't unusual, especially with the some of the recent nut cases (the plane into the IRS bldg, the guy yesterday shooting two Pentagon guards) that a heightened sense of security at locations like this is strongly encouraged. Having said that, it seems you and your companion did everything the right way, but came under the umbrella of being "out of the ordinary" and worthy of investigation anyway...."just in case" so to speak. It sounds like there was some uncertainty in the security peoples' minds of why you were photographing lights of the refinery. Sorry that you got harassed...I guess that occasionally comes with the territory. Last year I was approached by a state trooper while photographing a remote farm house from the highway. I merely explained why I found it so interesting, and he advised me to watch for traffic and make sure I didn't trespass to get my photos.</p>

<p>There's a refinery near where I live, and I get the same routine everytime I photograph it. However, none of the security people have heads as big as your super trooper's. I think it must be pretty standard protocol to monitor the perimeter of these facilities and to dispatch personnel whenever anyone is doing something unusual.</p>

<p>My interactions usually go something like this: I park my car beside the road and set up my tripod. By the time I fasten the camera to it, four guys in a white pickup truck (all in the front seat) come rolling down the road. </p>

<p>Them: "Hi." <br>

Me: "Hi."<br>

Them: "We saw you here and were wondering what you're doing." <br>

Me: "I'm just doing some photography. I'm a local photographer." <br>

I offer them a business card.<br>

Me: "If you know anyone who needs some photography work done, please pass along my card."<br>

Them: "OK, well, just be careful."<br>

Me: "Sure will! Thanks!"<br>

Them: "See you later." </p>

<p>I'd rather deflate the situation by simply identifying myself, rather than to have them in a position of demanding ID. A smile goes a long way too.</p>

<p><em>getting video to share with us</em></p>

<p>Others condemn on board video. I embrace it. You never know when it will come in handy for almost anything. Most people won't realize a DSLR is recording away either. Even if you can only get audio, it can be of value. <em><br /> </em></p>

<p>I realized afterwards that the security guard's initial cordialness was not genuine. It kind of seems like he was looking for a fight from the moment he was dispatched. The state trooper, I'm sure, was summoned by the refinery after we refused to oblige their guards request for I.D.</p>

<p>Oddly, the trooper did not request I.D. but rather spent 10 minutes arguing about our rights and lecturing us on the post-nine-eleven world. He did ask if I had any warrants, which I thought was funny.</p>

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<p>I worry that America has lost it's ability to discern, to recognize the difference between a credible threat and people just living their lives. Like 6 month old kids being detained by TSA agents because their name happens to match one on some terrorist no-fly list. It's not so much that I care that we were approached, I understand the heightened awareness and like Sarah, expected it, but it bothers me that even after we explained (in detail) our purpose and identified ourselves as photographers, we were still assumed to be "the enemy".</p>

<p>Time to upgrade my 5D to a MkII ;)</p>

 

 

 

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<p>Normally, I'm a big advocate of smile, comply and "get along with everyone we're all on the same side". And attitude on the part of the photographer can go a long way towards a positive outcome. But I realize that some people aren't very receptive to any of that. And while I can claim to have successfully warmed the hardest heart with my winning smile (if you saw my face that would get a laugh out of you, I promise, as I'm a fugly sort of guy), but it won't always work.<br>

I think it's important to try though. And I will always try to do that. And if it doesn't work, I'll try it again later.<br>

For something like a refinery, I would probably anticipate ahead and notify the public affairs officer (a memo to the security guards from that source can go a long way). But I spent a good chunk of time not long ago photographing a major bridge on a whim, so I obviously don't follow my own advice very often.</p>

<p>Did you get the badge number of the trooper? Even if you didn't you should write up a summary of what took place, time, date etc (write in a professional tone and don't get emotions mixed in) and send that the the big kahuna in charge of the state patrol in your state. Make sure you CC the local newspapers, radio and TV. The trooper was clearly out of line and incidents like this one needs to be reported so people get talking about them and know what's going on.<br /> <br /> I am in law enforcement part-time and as a consultant. Superiors - generally - wants to know about these kinds of incidents because getting the gp pissed off at LEOs help nobody. Any professional officer would agree with that.<br /> <br /> My guess is that the trooper in question was related to or friends with the "security guard" and wanted to use his authority to back up what this fool was saying to you. The guard too should get dragged out for this, as should the dispatcher. Also CC your letter to the CEO and the public relations officer of the refinery.<br /> <br /> It always pisses me off royally when some complete twit does something like this. It takes bloody eons to build up a good report with the public, and some walking brainrot does something like this which erodes years or work in an instant. If you need any assistance in writing this letter please, please, please let me know and I will be delighted to help out. You can contact me through my site at http://arrestingimages.com<br /> <br /> Sorry you guys had to experience this. Obviously not life threatening or even threatening but oh so bloody moronic.</p>

<p>I'm don't understand the relevance of security's rotundity.</p>

<p>i skipped over many of the posts BUT<br>

in every other nation in the world, Including canada uk and austraila<br>

the government has the power and lets the people have SOME OF IT.<br>

( despite the Magna Carta)<br>

In the USA it is supposed to be the opposite.<br>

we the people ( remember that phrase)<br>

grant some autority and rights to the government be it town state or nationsl.<br>

HOWEEVER the idiots who run things either have forgotten this or skipped that class in school. From the sometimes local cop ( most are ok)<br>

le lawyer, judge or politican up to the " beloved leader"<br>

are often cluelss how things really are.-- or should be<br>

eventually things will get sorted out<br>

but who knows when.<br>

those wo rely on "regulations" instead of laws that are properly passedd<br>

are also giulty of gross ignorance and stupidity.</p>

<p>Phil;<br /> lets say a farmer is rotund and you want to steal some melons or apples while walking home from school on a county road. You can out run him; but if he has a shotgun it is harder to outrun rock salt aimed at ones bum.:)</p>

<p>To all;<br>

<br /> If a security chap is rotund; one should arm oneself with alot of ammo; ie donuts; and learn to talk guard.; and LISTEN FOR GODS SAKE<br>

<br /> Show him your darn ID and be done with it.<br>

<br /> Make them feel important; take along a Polaroid and shoot an image of him with his car or dog too. These guys are just doing their your job; the more jackassery folks do with a struggle; the deeper a hole you dig yourself into. You should be mad at yourself.<br>

<br /> If he asks for an ID and you do not show him one; he is going to place you in the troublemaker box. All the sugar and donuts kicks in; you dissed his authority in doing his job. He there to protect the place; you willing chose the conflict route by not showing an ID. This sets up the basic conflict.</p>

<p>I am the type of guy who walks towards the mean ass police dog if he has one; like the dog is my long lost friend; confident and with no conflicts. This puts the dog at ease; non threatening moves. Learn to read the guard, dog or cop. You might be a nut case with a gun and shoot them; they do not know who you are; or why you are there. It is loony to provoke a conflict where it does not have to be.<br>

<br /> You all on this thread are barking up the wrong tree if you make fun of the guards authority; or the dogs too; or if you make it an incident.<br>

<br /> Lord have mercy; what in Gods name did you get a State Trooper involved for? that is nuts or a death wish adding gasoline to the fire instead of water or dirt.<br>

<br /> You will experience this again and again; it is really most all due to your own actions.<br>

<br /> Mikael above may too if he calls a security guard a "twit/walking brainrot/fool" too. This hatred towards a fellow man will dig one a deep hole in quick order.</p>

<p>If you did not treat the other chap with respect; he may not to you too. This goes back many thousands of years.<br>

<br />****This is more of a human relations issue; you get cataloged/stamped/awarded/marked/branded as a troublemaker by the refinery security; one who had to have a state trouper arrive because you did not want to show an id.<br>

<br />***Others of us might be remembered because we showed an ID; showed a Business card; maybe yellow page advert, remembered their dogs name; had a spare soda pop or sandwich; took as photo of them; asked them about how the cope with troublemakers! Maybe we got permission before hand; or mentioned it so there was little concerns too.<br>

<br /> You all have the wrong ammo in your soul; hatred, lack of understanding; lack of authority, not listening to the other person; thus there are more holes of quicksand you fall into; and you actions sink you to the depths.</p>

<p>I was photographing an old urban cut-stone building on a sunny summer day when a police car came up and the officer hopped out and came over to me. He was smiling, I was smiling and it was warm. He asked me what I was doing and I said I was a photographer with an interest in architecture. He asked did I realise it was a prison and I responded yes, but that it was an old interesting building. I showed him my (film) camera and gave him my name.</p>

<p>A little distracted at this stage, I asked him was it OK to shoot a couple more from the footpath and he replied that it would be fine but that he would have to stay there for the duration. It seemed a waste of his time and I said so, but he said they were watching us from inside the prison and would only put another call-out through were he to disappear. I took one more shot but the mood had passed. The officer was as nice as could be and I reciprocated.</p>

<p>There are three issues present in most stories I read similar to the original post:<br>

1 Policing by those who aren't proper police and have neither the knowledge nor the people skills for these encounters.<br>

2 Unobliging rights-based thinking on the part of the photographer.<br>

3 Lack of a hail-fellow-well-met attitude on either side.</p>

<p>I'm with Sarah Fox on this one. I can take care of 2 & 3; that normally takes care of 1.</p>

 

<p>Kelly:<br /> <br /> I work with LE all the time and am one. While I see where you're coming from with your "show ID and be done" I disagree with it this time. I'm all for being nice, polite and professional. But, if a security guard approaches me when I'm on public property and demand to see ID I will politely decline. If he continues to push I will still be polite to his face but I will absolutely write his superiors as well as the business he's "guarding". I don't advocate calling anyone names to their face, and if it seems like I do I apologize and shall try to write more clearly in the future. <br /> <br /> I might also add that I hate nobody. Hate is a very destructive emotion. But I do feel deep irritation towards people like the guard and the trooper mentioned in the OP. Much more so the trooper than the guard since the authority granted them is very different and so is their responsibility to carry out their duties in a professional manner. They are behaving very unprofessional and hurt the entire profession, and thereby - by extension - me as well. I have zero problems with authority - but I think you have it dead wrong here Kelly because if the OP is on public property the guard of the refinery next door can get his knickers in a bunch all day long if he wants to, but he has no more authority to do anything about that you or I do. <br /> <br /> Anyone that has ever been in law enforcement will agree that the last thing you want is for people to hate you - that just makes things more dangerous but also unproductive. That's why I react when "colleagues" like this trooper toddles around on some sort of misguided power-trip. He might be totally harmless but his actions will in one way or another reflect negatively on law enforcement which isn't a good thing.<br /> <br /> Also, I believe the OP didn't get the trooper involved. The trooper showed up after the guard drove off in a huff. That's why I wrote that it wouldn't surprise me if the trooper and the guard knew each other, are related etc.<br /> <br /> Any cop that approach the situation as described by the OP the way the trooper did is in the wrong, in the US. Can he? Sure. Will his superiors back him up? Probably. Does that make it right? Nope. If I started to behave like this to people when I'm working an accident or crime scene my sheriff would - rightfully so - react right away and make it clear to me that my behavior is unacceptable. As LE, we're there to <em>serve</em> the gp, not hassle them when there is zero call for it.<br /> <br /> I certainly do not advocate that people should disobey correctly given instructions from LE or by a PITA just for the sake of being a PITA. I also don't advocate that LE treat people poorly just because they can and because they - wrongly obviously - think their authority mean that they can. In an ideal world everyone would be polite to each other always. People would co-operate, help each other and be respectful of the rights, needs, and wants of others. Sadly the world rarely works like that. I see it on both sides of the crime scene tape all the time.</p>

<p>Mikael;<br /> There are not many refineries in the country; taking out a few for awhile would be another 9/11.<br /> A security chap is often a want to be cop; dropout cop; retired cop.<br /> <br /> Shooting images of a refinery at night and not wanting to show ones ID maybe is folks want; but the same folks will be crying if gas hits 8 bucks a gallon because a nut fired a shoulder launched rocket at a refinery.<br /> <br /> Companies want security and do not care about a weak persons buckroo written letter stance against a security chap because their feelings were hurt. The whole gambit of purposely not saying who you are and why you are there ignites a problem; even a dumb business card works in many cases.<br /> <br /> I would rather have Jeffs feelings hurt than a refinery blown up, Refineries; main river channels, some power grid areas and plants are prime targets, and several things I will not mention.<br /> <br /> It irks me how folks are so whussified and how it seems feelings matter than basic security. I guess today most folks are afraid to ask a stranger who is hanging outside ones house on the street taking photos; & notes; what he is doing. I never remember that in the 1950's<br>

A common thread is some folks tend to ignite security folks; it is in their DNA or makeup. The actions of both accelerate the fire.</p>

<p>I have family in LE and my dad used to have responsibility for the security guards at two of his jobs. When he took over one position, the guards weren't properly trained or licensed. Some lost their jobs because they couldn't get licensed. One had just been fired because he punched someone (on the sidewalk) after the dog wouldn't bite him. They need to know their own responsibilities, duties and to properly represent the company or agency they work for.</p>

<p>But I've run across plenty of photographers that ill serve their profession or hobby as well and this sense that they are "special" or persecuted is silly.</p>

<p>This is not a police state.</p>

<p>Contempt of cop is not a crime.</p>

<p>The trooper and security guard's hyper vigilance does not give them the right to trump the rights of the citizen that our soldiers are sacrificing their lives to protect and defend. It's an excuse to harass citizens by using fear to turn our country into a fascist, nationalist society where we are suppose to give up our rights to accommodate/cooperate with authoritie's hyper vigilance that blinds intelligent men from being able to judge whether or not a couple with a camera out in the sticks is actually a threat to our sovereignty.</p>

<p>Would a smart person such as the security guard really think a terrorist would be so obvious as to show up with a camera photographing a refinery at night from a far away distance and then once seeing the security guard NOT RUN AWAY? Besides these terrorists are changing their MO now by getting passed airport security with bomb underwear. If we can't catch them in obvious places like that then you're not going to stop them from blowing up a refinery in the sticks.</p>

<p>If anyone should have known better it was the trooper and the security guard who are there to serve and protect the rights of the citizen and the photographer, not harass them.</p>

<p>I'm no fan of harassment and I think a lot of security guards and cops simply don't know what the law is (of if they do they chose to ignore it). However I guess you have to ask yourself what would happen if they failed to check properly on someone who later did turn out to be up to no good. They really can't just say, "Well a terrorist wouldn't be so stupid as to sneak around at night with a camera, stand there and take pictures so I'll just ignore him". Nor can you simply assume that nobody would blow up a refinery somewhere out in the Styx so there's no need to check on anyone wandering around the perimeter at night.</p>

<p>Bad as things might be for white (or black, hispanic or asian) native English speaking Americans, I'd hate to be a Middle Eastern photographer specializing in photographing refineries at night in the US.</p>

<p>The authorities and their employees have probably been indoctrinated to see a terrorist under every rock, just as there was a communist hiding around every corner in the 1950s. It's not necesarily the individual's fault, it's their training and the attitude of the institutions they work for. All that being said, we still need to stand up for our rights or they will surely be gradually taken away. There has to be a balance and sometimes the scales get tipped in the wrong direction.</p>

<p>Check out <a href="FreeKeene.com">FreeKeene.com</a> .</p>

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<p>Well said, Bob. As I said before, I understand the need for vigilance and have no problem being approached and questioned by law enforcement, a security guard, or even a concerned citizen. It's when that person becomes enraged for no apparent reason that I take issue. It saddens me to think of the Middle Eastern photographer... it shouldn't matter. I think a conversation with a photographer (regardless of ethnicity) will reveal volumes about their intentions.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The state trooper, I'm sure, was summoned by the refinery after we refused to oblige their guards request for I.D.</p>

 

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<p>That should have read "...after we failed to <em>immediately</em> oblige their guard's request for I.D." although "request" implies some sense of decorum on the part of the guard and I would characterize his tone as more angry and antagonistic. Regardless, we never refused.</p>

 

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<p>I am the type of guy who walks towards the mean ass police dog if he has one; like the dog is my long lost friend; confident and with no conflicts. </p>

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<p>Having also come from a law enforcement family (dad a Santa Ana Police officer/sergeant for 17 years and mom a dispatcher for several years) and having a large number of friends who are in law enforcement, I'm going to suggest to Kelly and everyone else out there that <strong>unless you are given specific permission by the police dog's handler to approach their dog, please don't.</strong></p>

 

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<p>Phil-<br>

It signifies that he's getting 'round. ;^)</p>

<p>Jeff- I agree. Never approach a police dog or try to pet it without asking the officer if it's okay. The dogs are not just like any average pet dog.<br>

Kelly- A shoulder launched rocket? Really? And how do night shots from a considerable distance help in targeting one anyway?</p>

<p>The guard way overreacted. The Trooper acted just-- weird.<br>

The guard should not have demanded ID. He had no more right to demand it than I would. He could have asked nicely. Cordiality would have helped him a lot. His aggressive behavior is counterproductive and no one is obligated to respond to it with cooperation.</p>

<p>Some of the stuff these days makes me wonder. After the shoe-bomber incident, people were required to remove their shoes, even little old ladies. So I'm wondering, now that there's been an underwear-bomber incident....</p>

<p>". . . I'm curious to hear how others might have handled this situation."<br>

Poorly. </p>

<p>If I had been caught on the wrong side of a coffee break or in need of a snack, I probably would have been rude. There's about a 30% chance at any time that I'll go off and make a jerk out of myself. </p>

<p>I never had a problem with a situation like this, but I find that if I at least attempt to exude positive confidence, things go way better. </p>

<p>People handle confrontation poorly. As soon as someone's pride comes into play as part of any kind of offensive action (very mild, in an academic sense: like stepping forward or going to see what's going on, etc.), then that's it. That awakens the prideful animal in man, and they'll be spurred on by anger or defensiveness to win. As soon as the situation becomes about that, people have few choices. One of the things to do to get 'em back on track is to open up the choices in a way that's not about who's in charge or who said what. Making a positive, constructive assertion an option can channel some of that energy into no conflict. </p>

<p>Pride cometh before a brawl. </p>

<p>Marshall your mind the way you are going. Try to be a good man sometimes. Some days suck. You're born naked. You die naked. Try to do some good while you're here. Before collapsing into nihilism and anger for more than two days, get a chuckle out of it later. [Trust me on the two day time limit. It helps.]</p>

<p><em>Definitely</em>, have a beer or some iced tea or whatever, and blow this off at the coffee pot, and drive on.</p>

<p>On the plus side, you racked up one more adventure in photography. It'll give you bragging rights over Young Apprentice. <em>There was this time that I was on assignment and I got locked up with Cornfed over who was going to take pictures with the camera. </em></p>

<p>Whistle from "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly."</p>

<p>I was dusty from the trail, tired, worn out, and now, this. I stopped chewing on my matchstick and said, "Go ahead, make my frame."</p>

<p>Wah-wah-wah. Whiou-whiou-whiou.</p>

<p>Next time. try taking pictures at the mall. Their security guards ride "Seg-ways". My theory is that the police and security people cannot protect me from burglars, robbers and muggers. So why would they get he idea that they can protect me from smart crooks (terrorists)?</p>

<p>Take out a note-book. Take down his ID (name, number). Ask who employs him. Ask for the name and address of his employers. Say that you are going to write to them and copy your Congressman, Senator, State Governor, Washington Evening Post, Old Uncle Tom Cobbley and all.<br>

Steve, you're right - the beadles rush around trying to make out they are protecting us from terrorists but, as an example, here in Britain, a shopkeeper is beaten to death by a gang of thugs yet nobody seems to be able to stop them. I lived through the 27 years of the Troubles in Northern Ireland without any noticeable effect on our liberties.</p>