XPan or Fuji GSW690III ?

Hi, I am interested in making panoramic pictures and already read a

lot about the different techniques and about the Hasselblad XPan and

the Horizon 202 in particular. Recently I also added a used Fujifilm

GSW690III rangefinder camera as an affordable (well, sort of)

possibility. The idea with the Fuji was to have access to great

6x9cm picture quality for non-panoramic shots as well, while that

format can easily be cropped to obtain a panoramic picture. After

all, the 65mm Fuji lens corresponds approx. to a 28mm equivalent in

35mm photography, just like the 45mm lens on the XPan does, doesn't

it? Am I right that by looking at things that way, the XPan negative

is 'only' to the Fuji what a 35mm neg. is to a MF neg.?

Your comments are highly appreciated.

The GSW690III has a nice feature that the XPAN doesn't, built in front rise. You can use the top portion of the negative and reduce the effect of convergence. And as you said, you have a nice 6x9 negative when you are not taking panoramics.

How large do you plan to print?

I own both the GSW690III and the GW690III. You WILL NOT be disappointed with either one. Although the panoramic cabability of the XPan is nice, you can crop an equally impressive panoramic from a 6X9 transparancy or negative.

 

Fuji Provia 100 or Velvia 50 are the two films I use most often, and 16X20s enlarged from either the GSW or GW are breathtaking. Personally, I would opt for one of the Fujis .....

What Jeff said makes a big difference in getting a natural look with architecture and trees

etc. Put a level somewhere on the Fuji and shoot with the camera pointing level to the

horizon. Everything should be straight up and down and you can take as little or as much

of the image as you like.

 

I believe the XPan negative in panoramic mode is 6 cm wide and 2.4 cm tall. The Fuji

negative will be 9 wide and 6 tall. It's not as big a jump from the Xpan to the Fuji as from

35mm to MF but a jump none the less. The Xpan will be smaller in size, if that makes any

difference in how you shoot.

David, I do not work profesionally and I do not intend to make huge enlargements either. I wold limit myself to the A4 of a regular desktop inkjet printer for colour and perhaps a 30x40cm for b/w enlargements (my own Durst M601 is only a 6x6 enlarger, but I have access to a 6x9 enlarger).

I did not know that the Fuji had a front rise feature - there is not as much info about it on the internet as for the XPan. OTOH I lean towards the XPan for portability...

Thank you all for those fast replies - wow!

Benny,

 

Technically the Fuji does not have front rise (as in a movable front standard). What Jeff Schraeder is referring to is the fact that when you crop to the final panorama size, you have much more negative area to choose your crop from on the 6 x 9. You can choose the top of the negative, which would effectively give you front rise, or the bottom of the negative, which would be the reverse. Hope that makes sense to you.

 

Personally I'd go for the Fuji if size wasn't an issue (not that the Fuji is really that big, but compared to the XPan it is huge!)

Built-in rising front : OK, got it. Sorry - it's getting late here and obviously time for me to take a rest... ;-)

A thing to consider is how much film each camera will be eating.

a roll of 120 and a roll of good 35 is about $5. With the Fuji 690

you will get about 8 shots per roll. With the xpan you will get 21

shots with a 36 exp. roll.

 

With the xpan you will be able to shoot almost 3 times as many

shots than you would with a 690. Thats a BIG cost savings in

film.

 

If you ask me, I think you should think about a fuji g617. On ebay

it's just a couple hundred dollars more than the 690. But, then

you're only going to get 4 shots per 120 roll.

 

Another thing to consider is light metering. Xpan has TTL built in,

Fuji is manual, ie: you will need a hand held light meter. If you're

coming from 35mm and are used to TTL then the xpan will be an

easy cross over. If you want to go fuji and have never used a

hand held meter than good luck, you've got some learning in

front of you. Plus, a good spot/incident meter will run you about

$400.

 

That being said, you can't beat a 120 chrome when compared to

a 35mm. Is it worth the extra effort and cost? That's question is

up to you.

 

By the way, i have an xpanII and a Fuji G617. I shoot the xpan

when I'm having fun and shooting stock. I bring out the 617 only

when it's REALLY good. Four shots a roll is a killer, with

bracketing that's only one shot per roll.

 

www.rosswordhouse.com

It all depends on how important image quality is to you. With the 6x9 you get

film size, and believe me, 6x9 goes up to 20x24" very well, and even your

smaller prints will have tonal gradation, resolution and sharpness clearly

superior to the Xpan. The Xpan however is far more convenient and cost

effective to use.

The ONLY things you give up with the Fuji is the ability to use KODACHROME and interchangeble lenses.

 

I think the Fuji would be your best bet. Panoramcis look best when printed 10 to 16 inches wide and the Fuji will give you more negative to work with than the Xpan whic is about 7cm long vs the 9 cm Fuji.

On a slightly unrelated topic ? I just got today my second-hand Fuji GSW690II from Adorama delivered ? camera was sold as in ?excellent? condition and appears to be very clean and very lightly used. Meter says 222 ? I read it means 222 rolls were put through the camera. I also read that Fuji recommends doing CLA at 500 and complete re-built of the camera at 1000 ? can someone confirm that?

 

 

My problem: I cannot release the shutter on this camera! I can pull the wind-up lever as many times as I want, it seems to rotate the take-up spool inside fine, but I cannot press either of the two release buttons on the camera ? they appear to be blocked and shutter does not trip. I do not have a roll of 120 film handy ? is it expected behavior for this camera that I cannot trip the shutter without the film in the camera? Or is it a defect in the camera I just got? Please help.

 

Does anyone have a source on the web where I can get a manual or a guide on how to use this camera? There was no manual with camera.

These two are very different animals! Hold them in your hand and you will know the difference!

 

Xpan maximizes the potential in 35mm film, whereas GSW690 does it for 120 (sort of, because you could go even bigger with a 617 camera).

 

But, while Xpan gives you two lenses in one: normal lens and the panoramic effect. This is achieved at the flip of a switch. The Fuji 690 breed can not do that. You get a wide angle lens only with GSW690, and a near normal lens with GS690.

 

Both cameras have a lot of potential. But consider how are you also going to handle the printing. You will need a medium format enlarger for 690 -- actually a 4x5 enlarger.

 

Both are very capable cameras. You could add a third camera to the list: Mamiya 6x7 Rangefinder. You will find a lot of posts where people say they could crop image from a 6x7 format, and get the equivalent of Xpan panoramic. Again, I will add that the comparison is not amongst equals.

 

Xpan build quality is simply awesome. Lenses are very good. One more thing: Xpan is a focal plane shutter, while MF Rangefinders are typically Leaf shutters. A TTL meter is built in. A self timer too. 1/2 stop clicks on the lens. And you can always change lenses. The 28mm lens is expensive though. But you have a choice of three lenses. If you take panoramic shots with Xpan, you can not send that 35mm roll to a regular vendors like Walmart/Longs/**.

 

To summarize: Xpan is the choice for small packs/travel. GS690 is a good wide angle choice, and it is also a good weapon.

In response to the post about the Fuji GSW690 shutter problem,

try tripping the shutter with the back open. If that doesn't work

then you've got a problem. The shutter on this camera will not trip

if there is no film and the back is closed. Manuals for the Fuji

might be available on Ebay. There's also a company in CT that

sells old camera manuals, try a search on Google.

222 on the counter should mean the shutter has been tripped 2,220 times. The shutter won't fire with the back closed unless there is film in the camera.

Thank you for all your input here.

I didn't want to clutter my original question with the following, but here it is for an extra light upon the path I came :

Just prior to narrowing my choice down to the XPan and the Fuji GSW690 I have been wrestling with more camera models/technical options. I started buying into the Graflex XL system a few months ago but got cold feet halfway because of doubts about film flatness and the availability and price of the Grandagon/Angulon lenses. I have the XLRF body (which I intended to modify as described on the bigcamera.com site) as well as a 6x7cm RH-10 back (the 6x9 RH-8 would be better suited). So I started leaning toward the XPan with 45mm lens (the 30mm is beyond my reach) but feared that the negative is 'just' a cropped 6x7 with also not enough wide feeling in it (I love the 24mm and 17mm lenses for the my Nikon).

Another option I considered was to use my Zenitar 16mm full frame fisheye lens on the F3HP and then use Helmut Dersch's PanoTools software to correct the perspective. But here I fear lacking the necessary computer skills and the PC work involved as much as the quality of the small negative size. That is also why I am (needlesly ?) reluctant to make series of images with the 4MP digicam and then stitch those together on the PC. I prefer direct analog output, but I don't mind scanning the XPan or Fuji negs for inkjet outputs and archiving. Anyway, thank you for your answers.

>>Another option I considered was to use my Zenitar 16mm full frame fisheye lens on the F3HP and then use Helmut Dersch's PanoTools software to correct the perspective. But here I fear lacking the necessary computer skills and the PC work involved as much as the quality of the small negative size.<<

 

FWIW, Thomas Nieman is offering his PTLens as a free PS plug-in that does all the PanoTools handi-work behind the scenes. You need to download and install PT, but don't need to know how to use it, and will also need to download his lens profile files. Right now he is in the process of building his lens profile databank and I know for a fact he will have many profiles for the 1Ds and MKII available soon, with the 300D/10D to follow shortly. He may already have the Nikon profiles available. More info can be had on his site here: http://epaperpress.com/ptlens and at www.outbackphoto.com.

 

Cheers,

Jack

Regarding the questions on CLA/Shutter rebuild: Yes Fujinon recommends a CLA at 500 rolls and a rebuild at 1000 rolls. This is based on their real-world MTF & average use. The camera does NOT end its functionality at those points. Affordability? Any camera offering me interchangeable accessories usually bankrupts me! The Fujinon GW/GSW series has been the least expensive MF choice for me, compared to Pentax 67 & 645, Hasselblad etc. The film has never been the expensive part of ownership. It's been the $1000 lens that gets used twice a year that's my budget-killer!

Not to start a new thread or even upset some folks, but have you considered the Mamiya 7II with the 35mm adapter? It produces the same size negs as the xpan and you have the option of medium format film. Plus you can crop the 6x7 down to the 24x65 xpan size.

 

The lenses are superb and the negs are huge. Just a thought.

There is a shutter lock lever on this camera, like a rifle safety. Make sure it is not set to the locked position. It is on the shutter release on the front of the body.

I have read this discussion with interest because I, too, would like a medium format camera with a wide lens for landscape photography. Because I love using small format cameras--small, light, built-in meter, exposure automation option--the xpan appeals to me. Often I use a tripod with my 35mm camera, even at what would be considered handholdable speeds; just as often I handhold my camera. For best results I could attach the xpan to a tripod or a monopod on a hike; but I could also easily handhold the camera--not always easy to do with medium-format equipment. The panoramic format of the xpan appeals to me: 4x12 inches on 11x14 paper or 6x18 inches on 16x20 paper. From time to time, I crop my 35mm negs in this way. Unlike my cropped 35mm negs, which are just under 1 1/2 inches wide, the xpan negs are just under 3 inches wide. The difference between the two formats in terms of sharpness and tonality would be remarkable. In panoramic format, the standard 45mm lens is eqivalent to a 25mm wide angle lens in small format, a favorite focal length of mine. Then, too, in "normal" 35mm mode, the lens provides a very usable standard lens. I own a Rollei 3.5F TLR camera with 75mm lens--not wide enough for landscape photography, but wonderful for portraits. This combination of small-format and medium-format equipment--I think of the xpan as a hybrid camera, offering both small and medium-format capabilities--might serve me well.

I forgot to mention something in my discussion of the xpan. The one drawback of the xpan, in my mind, is the long narrow neg in portrait orientation, when you turn the camera on its side to shoot vertical compositions. That doesn't appeal to me. I would like the full 6x7 neg.

It would seem that the Voigtlander/Cosina VC meter would be a viable choice for a compact meter to add to the accessory shoe of a Fuji rangefinder camera (or any other RF camera with an accessory shoe) if one did not already have a hand held meter.

 

Bob Tescione

Having owned the xpan and the Fuji GSW III, I can make a couple of comments:

 

1. The meter on the xpan is poor...almost as poor as the one on the Mamiya 7ii. You will need a handheld external meter to be confident of your exposures, or bracket much.

 

2. Though the xpan can be handheld, and is quite portable, you really need to stop down to F22 to get the depth-of-field needed for properly focused near-to-far landscape scenes...so you end up needing a tripod anyway (or shooting 400 speed film with the xpan).

 

3. The great xpan lens to own is the 30mm...but it is $2000 in price (used). On the other hand, the GSW does give you one option to work with in an affordable package...

 

Recommendation: the xpan is way overpriced. It is in some ways built well...yet read Bjorn's experience with the camera. If you want to go the xpan route, make sure you get the xpan II body (and buy the Fuji version of the body and lens, and not the Hassie versions which Fuji makes anyway). See if you can get it used via E**y...or via a reputable dealer in Taiwan/Singapore that has an on-line store on that auction site. I have purchased much merchandise this way and have had no problems. Just check the on-line store seller's ratings and email him with questions, etc.) So if you shoot a bit of 35mm slides or whatever (standard size), and want to do a few panos, spend the money on the xpan.

 

On the other hand, you could purchase a very nice condition Fuji GSW III for about $1000. It is a great camera...but you need a tripod and external meter (just as you will find you need for the xpan). With another $1000 you can buy a digital camera, and use panoramic software to stitch images together to get the best results of all....

 

My two cents would be to get the Fuji GSW...

<i>you really need to stop down to F22 to get the depth-of-field needed for properly focused near-to-far landscape scenes...so you end up needing a tripod anyway</i>

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Well, that logic is true for any lens and within any format! Bigger format, even smaller aperture needed! If xpan needs f/22, then surely GSW needs f/45! <br>Look at Hasselblad Xpan specs. You can get 4m (~10ft) - Infinity focused with f/8.

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<i>The meter on the xpan is poor...almost as poor as the one on the Mamiya 7ii.</i>

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Xpan meter is thru-the-lens. Whereas 7ii has it outside. Xpan meter works even when a filter is added. Not only that, it warns of low exposure if I leave my cap on -- naturally. And that is perhaps the biggest peril of using a rangefinder!