Wisner Experience - The other side of the fence.

Many of the past few threads involving the Wisner Company have

been rather negative. I would like to share my recent experience

with the Wisner Company. Last October I placed an order for an

8x10 traditional model. Nothing fancy mind you, just a plain basic

model. I was told that the time frame would be around 6-8

weeks. Given the holiday season and winter orders I figured that

3-4 months was more in line. For me there was no huge hurry.

Like most others I wanted a firm date of delivery. After three

months my camera was still in the works. I called and talked to

Ron Wisner every couple of weeks to check on the progress.

Four months came and went with no camera. When I spoke to

Ron he told me that the bed design on the traditional models

had changed. My bed was one of 10 that were being made and

did not pass inspection. Another month and no camera. Once

again I talked to Ron about the progress. There were a few other

items that had issues. <p>At this point in time my concern was

growing. I had committed to working on an ongoing project that

required my 8x10. When I mentioned the date Ron assured me

that I would indeed have my camera. Within two weeks of the

delivery date I was again slightly concerned. I spoke again with

Ron and he agreed that the time was getting close to complete

my camera. Three days prior to my first shooting day of the

season I still had no camera. At this point in time I am very upset

about the outcome of no camera. The day before my drop-dead

deadline I spoke once again with Ron. There was a rush to

finish the last few details on the camera. At around lunchtime

Ron again called and let me know that the camera would be

ready to ship. The next call I received was around 4:30 that day.

Ron informed me that the camera was very close but not ready.

Now here is the where the story takes a radical turn. The next day

I must capture on film a building that will no longer be standing

at the end of the day. Having explained this to Ron he made the

decision to send me a loaner camera. Yes, a loaner camera.

The next day I received the loaner camera. The shoot was a

success. I used the camera over the weekend and all was well.

<p>The following Monday I shipped the loaner camera back to

Ron. Three days later my camera was shipped overnight. I might

also add that the shipping both ways of the loaner camera was

on Ron Wisner's nickel. He also sent my camera overnight with

no extra charge. The total time to produce my camera was six

months. For me a six-month wait was like a year. Had I known

up front that the wait was six months I still would have placed the

order. The camera arrived on Friday just like Ron promised early

in the week. The six-month wait was for me worth it. This is the

second Wisner camera that I own. Three years ago I ordered a

Traditional 5x7. I must tell you that I was a tad bit concerned with

the amount of negative publicity that Ron Wisner has received.

There have been reports of less then favorable quality along with

horror stories of year long wait times. I can assure you that the

quality of the camera that I received this week was the highest

possible. The camera works better then I could have imagined.

There are no flaws and I am extremely happy with it. The only

flaw I can find is that Ron may promise more then he can deliver.

How many of us have been in that same situation? Yes I would

say that 6 months wait for an 8x10 traditional was rather long.

<p>I must say that in the defense of any camera maker, the end

product is custom. No matter how many 8x10's are built, each

one will have qualities that make it unique. Large format

cameras are by nature custom made to order. If these cameras

were so easy to make there would be more companies out

there. Most would say that if the camera had made on time there

would have been no need to deliver a loaner. That is true. I would

rather get my camera on time then to use a loaner. I would also

rather wait to have the camera pass inspection then to have a

sloppy built camera shipped. My purpose in this post is to shed

some light on the other side of the fence. With the resurgence in

large format photography, there will be increased wait times for

8x10 cameras. I checked with three other camera makers and all

gave times of the end of the year to get an 8"x10" camera. I

guess these longer wait times should serve as a message to

those either thinking of placing an order or waiting on a camera.

In the end the wait is worth it. <p>I should also like to mention

that I submit this thread so as to stress a point. If the

communication with the camera maker is ongoing, honest and

generally patient, many problems can be avoided. I have read

some previous posting's dealing with Ron Wisner. There are

some very angry people out there. I would never tell another how

to act in my situation unless they asked me. If I were asked I

would say that patience will be rewarded in the end. And to Ron

Wisner I would say that in the future please try to be more

realistic with the order times. I would also say thank you for your

commitment to quality. I have a 7x17 conversion back on order.

My hope is that it will be here by my vacation in June. If it is not I

will still have my 8"x10" camera. The stress caused by worry is

not worth the effort. I also hope that this post offends no one.

There are always two sides to every story. Mine ended rather

later then expected but on a very positive note. If I were to need

another camera I would have no hesitation in calling Ron

Wisner. In spite of all the negative publicity that he and his

company have received, I think that overall Ron is making a huge

effort to improve the camera buying experience.

I don't think I would hire Ron Wisner to invest my retirement money, but he builds a nice camera! On the other hand, I don't think I would hire my broker to build a camera.

hmmm, I dont understand. You are telling us that you were promised a camera in 6 weeks the most and it took 6 months to get it? and you call this a positive experience? So what if he sent you a loaner and paid for the shipping? it is the least he could do!

 

I think your intentions are good but this post is not really helping Wisner, it just confirms everybody suspicion, you are promised a delivery date and then given the run around. Not to be a jerk, but if I am spending upwards of $2000 on a camera I dont think I should have to call every week or two weeks to see if I will ever get the camera.

 

I thought this problem was confined to specialty cameras like ULF. But if the problem is also happening with the regular run cameras, then I think the boat is sinking fast.

Thanks, Bruce for the story. It confirms what I have always thought.

 

Unlike many of his past customers, I have never felt that Ron was evil nor purposely dishonest. To the contrary.

 

My personal experience has been that he seems to be the Howard Hughes of the camera industry. With all the positives and negatives which that implies.

All I can say is you are VERY lucky. A close friend of mine recently purchased

a ULF (size to remain undisclosed) camera. The camera arrived and it was

beautiful. Workmanship appeared to be first rate. After approximately 4

months my buddy still had not received his film holders or lens boards. Finally

after many calls, my friend was to leave on a trip for the Big Cypress Swamp.

The film holders still had not arrived. Calls to Wisner resulted in promises of

shipment that same day, the next day and the day after that. Still no film

holders.

 

Finally, about a week late (mind you they were already 4 months late) the

holders and lens boards arrived. The holders were loaded with film, and

everything packed up. Afte mounting the lenses, we found out that the boards

would not fit the camera. After a bit of sanding and cutting they were made to

fit. On the very first day, the camera was set up, a film holder inserted and the

camera was focussed. Low and behold the film holder was a full inch too

short. It could not be removed easily and we just could not believe it!

 

After shooting several sheets of film, it was noticed that the bellows came

loose from the standard at one corner. How long has this been the case. Was

all the fil ruined. Using gaffers tape the bellows was re-attached.

 

I personally ordered a 7x17 from Wisner and gave him my credit card. I had

second thoughts and asked him to cancel the order. I was told that my card

would be credited that very day. A month later when my bill came I was

dismayed to find that the charge for the camera was still there and no credit

was issued. I called AMEX and they immediately removed the charge.

 

Obviously if you do business with this company, be very careful. The quality

control is less than stellar. In Wisner's defense, he has made very effort to

correct the problems....I just don't understand how he can manufacture film

holders and lens boards that do not fit his cameras.

 

After the trip, we processed 8 sheets of the film. All sheets were fogged

severely.

 

I have never had a bellows come loose, or a lens board not fit my Ebony or

Arca Swiss cameras.

 

Let the buyer beware.

Jorge,

The original time frame to build the camera was an estimate.

The price of the camera should not be an issue when it comes

to the time frame expected to deliver the camera. On the contrary.

When you spend that much money one would expect the camera

to be done right. Not so much the time it takes. I can understand

in full others that have had a rough wait. The issue more here is

the quality of product versus the wait period. My comments are

more directed to the quality of the camera and the fact that Ron

worked with me beyond what was expected. I am merely pointing

out that no matter whom you order from you will wait about the

same time frame. The big exception would be an order placed

for an Ebony.

Bruce, the quality of Wisner cameras is not in question. Although I don't use one, I am sure they are fine quality cameras if one goes by the positive feedback on this score. The problem is the delivery dates and the less than forthright "estimates" as you call them.

 

Instead of Wisner I bought a Gandolfi 8x10, paid $2500 and had it delivered from England via Badger in a a week. I believe when one purchases an item like this, the total experience should be positive. If there was only a few isolated incidents where this happen, one could understand. Reading this kind of stories again, and again does make one wonder why would I want to pay more than $2000 and have the hassle and stress of waiting indefinitely when I can call any of the other manufacturers and get a straight answer.

 

Fine as the cameras are, they are of no use if they are sitting at Wisners shop waiting to be made. Again, I am sure your intentions are good and tried to provide a positive experience, but I think many on this forum are more demanding than you and would not call triple the waiting time from the "estimate" a positive experience.I know I wouldn't.

 

OTOH the quality of construction and quality control seems to be another problem for the specialty cameras (which BTW are the more expensive). It is not the first time I have heard a story similar to Michaels where the bellows come off, the holders don't fit, etc...

 

Dont take me wrong, I do not have an ill wish for Mr. Wisner, on the contrary I hope he fixes these problems so we can have his wonderful cameras around for a long time, but confidence in Mr. Wisners products is getting smaller everytime due to a silly little problem. It seems to me that Mr. Wisner would fix his problem by just taking his estimate and multiplying it by 4, and give this number to the costumer.

Goodness. I wish you were one of my customers. Give me the full purchase price up front, allow me unseen performance delays, get a warm feeling with a free round postal trip and you still think that I am the greatest thing to photography since multi coating.

 

If any large format photographer was only required to put down a small percentage of the purchase price until satisfactory physical delivery (tracking number from Fed Ex), this conversation and the associated criticism would be moot. Until we as a consumer group stand up to resonableness, we perpetuate shoddy business practices.

 

Anyone that is considering a Wisner purchase (and I just ordered a ULF back) would have to have their head examined to not utilize the critical mass of Quality Camera. Does not cost you a dime more and they will act as your intermediary. They will double check the quality control before they ship it to you. The owner, Jeff Wheeler is a real class act who understands that all Large Format photographers want to do is make quality images - not make like a loan collection agency bugging folks week after week. Talk about stress. Life is way to short for that stuff. Good Luck.

I'm going to need to agree with the other posters. Your post didn't come off like a glowing review. I'm sorry, if my camera took 10 times longer to make than was stated and this has been a problem that happens over and over and wasn't a one time or uncommon problem I'd be hacked. I'm sure Ron has many good points, can make fine cameras and I know he's done much for the LF community. But hell, we read this same story over and over. I can see if a product that was supposed to be ready in 6-8 weeks, for some unexpected reason took 10 or 12 weeks. But a stock (not custom unless you had some modifications done) camera taking that long. I'm afraid Ron is going to drive his business down the crapper. Maybe he needs to do what Phillips did and state he's just too backed up and won't be taking new orders for a while. I know some people may be bummed, but I think most respect the upfront manner in which he runs his business. Good luck Ron. I'd really hate to see anything bad happen to anyone in this rather small LF community.

> Maybe he needs to do what Phillips did and state he's

> just too backed

> up and won't be taking new orders for a while. I know some people may be

> bummed, but I think most respect the upfront manner in which he runs his

> business. Good luck Ron. I'd really hate to see anything bad

> happen to anyone

> in this rather small LF community.

 

On top of which, you haven't put a penny down on it (don't pay until it's really ready to ship)

Maybe it is time for all large format photographers to get together somewhere and start a company that makes cameras for large format photographers. Or possibly buy Wisner out.

As Bruce said up front this is not a new topic, if you red the archives of this forum

you will find a thread like thus pops up about once a year and the comments are

usually the same.

 

I am one of the may that has been 'burned' by Ron Wisner but I learned my lesson and

that is that. I find it amazing, that with all the negative publicity he keeps getting

more and more business. OTOH I do wonder how many of the cameras he sells are

sold to those who are buying first because thye like the look and second because of

the functionality of the camera? I REALLY wonder how many of his 'limited edition'

cameras wil ever have mroe than a dozen sheets of film run through them?

 

Each to their own .....

This is supposed to be a positive experience? We're supposed to think well of Wisner because six months after the original estimated delivery date, and after numerous long distance telephone calls and many false promises, and with an absolute deadline staring you in the face, you still had no camera so he gave you a loaner? Geez, he should have delivered your camera and refunded the full purchase price for all the trouble he put you through. You hope your 7x17 back will be here by June - of what year?

I had been toying with the idea of ordering a Wisner LF camera. Not anymore.

I was thinking on the same concept myself Kevin. You would want to start from scratch as the costs of acquisition would be many multiples of realistic. I would think that if we pooled the intellectual resources of this forum, we would be rather surprised at the results. Just look at what Sandy and Sam put together in S&S?

 

I have owned my company for three years and would be very interested in exploring another venue such as this one. Anyone want to talk in Albuquerque in July?

Sounds like anyone ordering from Ron should get a signed contract like the construction industry uses with a set deadline and an increasing percentage of cost reduced as the contract goes beyond the time allowed. Like 10% per week. After 10 weeks the camera would be free.

I'm responding to Ted Harris...I detected a note of distaste for those who buy limited editions or do not constantly use their purchases. My experience with professional photographers is that they spend as little as possible on equipment (which makes good business sense) and that many of their equipment purchases are second hand. Many non professionals buy alot of very expensive equipment and it frequently ends up on the used market in mint condition where it finds a home with a pro at a good price. I think that the purchase of such equipment by non pros and equipment buffs serves to assist the survival of many small producers of high grade gear such as Wisner, Ebony, Linhof, Leica, and etc. Remember, the possession of more cameras than one can possibly ever use in ones lifetime is not illegal. :)

Rolf

Rolf,

 

I totaly agree and I hope people keep on buying things they don't need so that I can

buy them used at a good discount. OTOH I would not lump Wisner products in with

the others you mentioned. My won negative experiences with Wisner products, as the

experience of many others, goes far beyond the unkept promises and missed

deliveries (check the archives).

 

Just a note on Leica, which I believe speaks for msot of the products you mentioned.

At one time I owned several M bodies. Today it is only one, my original M3

purchased used in 1964. It has stood up to all the tests for which these workhorses

are so well noted. In the 40 years I have owned it has been serviced twice (hasn't

needed any more). Once flew acros the Sea of Japan tied to the strut of a small plane

(by accident) and kept on ticking after drying off.......so on. The incredible precision

you see in Leica, Linhof, Ebony, etc. is awesome indeed .... I really don; tthink you

can apply the same sort of superlatives to Wisner's mechanics. To the fit and finish of

the camera usually but not to the functionality. Just my opinion.

Wisner has established a reputation of delayed delivery that will take years to overcome. Here's what he could do to minimize the problem:

 

1. Don't state the best-case scenario for delivery. Publish on the website the order dates vs. delivery dates for cameras over the last few years. Avoid giving estimates; if customer insists, give an average of appropriate past deliveries.

 

2. Don't require full payment at order time, but only a reasonable deposit, no more than 25%, preferably 10%. Raise prices if the float has become built into the business process; get rid of any float.

 

I hope Wisner does *something* to clear their reputation -- we don't need any LF companies to be going under in this day and age.

 

CXC

Wow. I don't shoot LF and given these replies I probably never will--if I had a

company act like this I'd get my money back and run screaming, and many people

here seem to think this is normal/acceptable! jeez.

 

Not to be too agressive, but I can't resist making a suggestion here though some may

not like it:

 

you don't like the way he does business, but you want the company in existence. Ok.

Stop buying his cameras until he shapes up. Tell everyone else to stop buying his

cameras to do the same; make a big effort. Write letters to photo mags.

 

One of two things will happen: 1) he'll shape up (and everyone is happy), or 2) he'll go

out of business. If he does, THEN the entepreneurs can buy him for cheap and

reopen--as in #1, everyone's happy (except Wisner of course).

 

finally, I might point out: one thing I know is that just like money, a camera-in-6-

weeks is WORTH MORE than camera-in-6-months. When you pay for a 6-week

camera and get a 6-month camera with no additional 'late bonuses', you're all being

overcharged. not to mentin the interest.

 

Ok, I'll run back to the 35m forums now...

Hmmm . . . After reading this thread I don't feel quite so bad for having *never* been paid for the covertible plasmat series (including the two-element corrector) that I designed for R.W. back in the mid-1980's. All these tales of unkept promises sound very familiar.

 

Brian

First, I would have to agree with those who challenged the notion that this was 'positive' experience. A delivery of over four times later than the 'estimate' is anything but positive.

Second, this mirrors my experience with Ron Wisner: continual unmet 'promises.'

Third, Ron needs to learn one of the basic maxims of customer service: "Under commit and over deliver."

 

Regardless, I have more than one Wisner camera (total is classified!), and they are well-made and beautiful. I bought two of these used, which guaranteed they already existed and could be shipped immediately!

In the marketing world, the concept is referred to as setting the customer's expectations.

 

Years ago, I was on the committee to evaluate and recommend an action plan for the organ at our church. At the end of the day, we recommended that the old pipe organ be rebuilt by a local, but reputable organ builder. The problem that came about was that organ building is much more art/craft than business, and as the project progressed, the nature of the end product varied from what was expected at the outset. Furthermore, the schedule also suffered as the scope of the project changed, as did the price. And to be fair, this was all done with the full awareness of the committee. What the church got in the end was a wonderful instrument that was worth every penny that it cost. But those who were more accustomed to hiring a contractor to pave a driveway were very unhappy that it wasn't as cut and dried as they thought it ought to be.

 

I've heard similar stories about Ron Wisner from other sources. But I have also heard that he builds a very good camera. Perhaps the problem here is that he should try to be less of a hard-nosed business man with a catalog of standard camera models, and more of a craftsman making specialzed, made-to-order products.

This fence has only one side as far as I am concerned.

In the past I subscribed to (paid for) R.Wisner's publication 'The Larger View". I had received the first (and only, as it turned out) issue and thought it was interesting, worth some of my hard earned pocket money. I never received subsequent issues, my inquiries were put on hold, it took two years until I received a refund-probably because I indicated that I would "spread the word" as much as possible.

Tonight we tried printing the 14x17 negatives made with my buddies new

fangled Wisner special (frustration noted). In order to get a partially usable

print we had to trim the 14x17 negatives to 5x7. Yes, 5x7, that's how badly

fogged the film was. Printing times in Palladium exceeded 10 minutes due to

the overall fog on the negative. usually, my PMK BPF200 negatives print in

1.5-2 minutes with my lightsource.

 

If I were my buddy, I would send the camera back, take whatever action was

necessary and hope to be made whole. I just can't imagine how such a

beautiful camera can be so badly built and engineered.

 

BTW, the darkslides stick out of the 14x17 holders which as I mentioned are

1" too short.

 

Tomorrow the camera goes back to Wisner. I wonder if my buddy will ever see

his $6000 returned for the camera and $350 each for 3 film holders (Although

4 were ordered and the 4th never shipped).

 

"Here lies Ron Wisner, never shipped on time, but he made beautiful

cameras".

 

Mike