Why no more Eye controlled focus (ECF) in DSLR?

Hi,

 

Can someone point out, why Canon took off this feature ever since the first D30? It was a very nice feature in

EOS3/5/30. I rather wish to have it back than what ever fancy video mode, which I don't think is interesting.

 

Any difficulty to add this feature in DSLR? or any conflict to the electronic part with the eye tracking system?

The smaller viewfinder probebly doesn't help.

 

Personally, I'm not sorry to see it go.

For the full-frame versions the viewfinder should not be a problem.

Canon didn't put ECF in their series one cameras. It's wan't considered reliable enough to be a professional feature. That leaves the 5D and I'm guessing it would be more trouble than it would be worth to add it.

I don't believe there is much of a technical issue here not to be able to add this feature. There are far more challenging things that Canon has been able to overcome and integrate into the new DSLRs. My guess is somehow Canon figured out there is not much market demand for this added feature (which again I believe is not true, a lot of people will like it) and they just stopped putting it.

 

<br><br>I agree ... this is one of the features that I still miss from my old Elan 7E. That stupid "joystick" type focus selection button is really irritating, more so when you are in a hurry ... along with the "Print" button (which could have been so many different things other than being a "Print" button) this is probably the second most thing I hate on my 30D.

 

<br><br>Canon please ... can we get our ECF back :)

If you look back to older postings, you'll find that ECF didn't work for some. I can only imagine it to have been a support nightmare.

 

Personally, it works consistently for me and it's the greatest thing since indoor plumbing. This feature, the excellent AF performance (and TMY2) is why I still haul around an EOS-3.

The size of the EOS 30 and xxD viewfinders are about the same, my old EOS 30 worked well. Probably was a bit tricky to add this feature in 1D series because of 45 AF points, but the well spread AF points in xxD should work well as it does in EOS 30. Just, I thought probably some story behind that we dont know. or maybe no one bother about this old feature anymore and Canon is concentrating on pixel and ISO war. Someday, hope this will come back.

Here are answers from Canon's Chuck Westfall in his "Tech Tips" column:

 

Nov 2006:

 

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0611/westfall.html

 

"At this point, it is reasonably clear that the absence of Eye Controlled Focus (ECF) in EOS digital SLRs is a marketing decision. There is no point in ruling out the possibility that ECF may be introduced in future EOS models, but I don't expect it to appear unless a sufficient level of market demand is perceived. So far, that has not happened, but your request has been forwarded to our Product Development Center."

 

Mar 2008:

 

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0803/tech-tips.html

 

"I have stated numerous times on the Web and at least twice in Tech Tips that it is obvious by now that the omission of ECF in EOS Digital SLRs is a marketing decision, not a technical issue. We get user requests for ECF from time to time, but to be blunt, customer demand so far has been insufficient to justify adding this feature. I'll never say never, but don't hold your breath on this one. "

 

Then again, we all know that demand for a dedicated print button is overwhelming...

If they are going to add tricks to their DSLRs I'd far rather they worked on in-body stabilization via sensor shift technology than ECF. That might induce me to buy a new body. ECF certainly wouldn't.

Is it possible to have in IS body and IS lens work together?

Thanks Mark U for the links.

Some corrections for Wooi Loon's benefit:

 

The size of the viewfinder prism is key: various components have to be packed around it, such as the metering sensors. The facets of a 1.6 crop pentaprism only have about 40% of the area of a full frame pentaprism with the same coverage (e.g. 95%). The eyepiece of the 40D viewfinder has higher magnification to compensate for the smaller image size.

 

The EOS 3 was the first camera with the 45 point AF system and yet it offered ECF. If you've ever seen one, you will know that the pentaprism housing is substantial, even though the camera has no popup flash.

 

Looking at the images in Canon's teaser campaigns it seems to me that one camera being shown has an abnormally large pentaprism and no popup. Another seems to have a rather more normal pentaprism shape, perhaps with the hint of a popup flash. We'll know the real significance soon enough.

Re: IS:

 

It is impractical to try to run two different systems together - one would be switched off for preference. Too much computing and communication would be involved in deciding which system should respond to which bit of shake - the calculation would be too slow to be effective in control. Existing IS lenses would not have circuitry to handle the splitting of "responsibility". The communication channel via the lens contacts has limited bandwidth, designed to be sufficient to handle commands to control the aperture and focus, and to switch IS on or off. Current systems are essentially analogue, so no real calculation is necessary.

Thanks Mark U to correct my mistakes. I forgot EOS 3 has 45 AF points, never own one before.

<P>

One has pointed out one picture showed no top button but another got one, probably one 1D and one 5D. Will see.

I'd love to have ECF again. Used it all the time in my Elan 7E and EOS 3. Much faster than the silly joystick thingie! As it is now, I often

just revert to 1980s single AF sensor style lock-AF-recompose. I do miss ECF. If the 5D MK II had it I've buy it and sell my 5D...

Re:IS:

<P>

That said, in near future, probably no IS body from Canon, because of quite up to date IS lenses.

"Is it possible to have in IS body and IS lens work together?" Not at the same time, but it IS possible to have both available and chose one.

 

I wrote a long article on this which you can read here - http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/image_stabilization.html

 

There's no technical reason why Canon can't do the same as Sony, Pentax and Olympus and offer body based image stabilization, as well as sell image stabilized lenses. The camera is smart enough not to allow both to be used at once, but body based IS would allow ALL your lenses, including wide and normal primes which are not (and probably never will be) optically stabilized. If you have an IS lens and want viewfinder stabilization too, just select lens IS.

 

Canon could do this right now. In fact Olympus have a body with IS and an optically stabilized lens which will mount on that body. There's absolutely no technical reason why Canon couldn't offer this if they wanted to. They just don't want to.

As Canon keeps telling us, they're asked about it so often, but there's no demand for it...

But from marketing perspective, Canon won't introduce the IS body, because some lens have IS and non-IS version.

Incidentally, you can select focus points with the main dial; I find this far faster (and easier) than using the joystick.

 

In three digital bodies, I don't think I've ever used the joystick. Shame, really.

 

I miss a lot of things from my EOS-3, such as the lack of flash (I prefer it without, call me weird), the viewfinder, the "feel" of the body, and the autofocus system. It's sort of depressing that a camera a decade old seems more sophisticated and professional in many ways than my 40D. But I don't miss ECF. It never worked for me, at all. And even if it did, I'd rather peg a focus point for composition than control the focus with my eyes; all too often I'm not looking at where I want the image to focus when I'm composing. It's a neat technology demonstration, but I can't really see myself using it for serious photography, even if it did work.

My first Canon was an A2E, and I loved the ECF - in the beginning. As I became more experienced, my eye would wander around the frame, checking the background, foreground and so on. This drove the ECF wild. The lens was constantly zooming in and out of focus, and I found that very annoying. So I quit using ECF. My 10D doesn't have it, and I don't really miss it. I either focus-recompose or manually select the focus point.

<cite>If they are going to add tricks to their DSLRs I'd far rather they worked on in-body stabilization via sensor shift technology than ECF. That might induce me to buy a new body. ECF certainly wouldn't.</cite>

 

<p>I'm exactly the opposite. I really, really miss ECF; it worked very well for me, and I would pay extra for it. Remember, Canon has released IS and non-IS versions of bodies before (A2/A2e, Elan II/IIE, Elan 7/7E, Elan 7N/7NE), so they could obviously do the same with a DSLR: offer a non-ECF version for the several people in this thread who don't want to pay for ECF that they don't want to use, and an ECF version for the several people in this thread who loved it on their film bodies and miss it on their DSLRs.</p>

 

<p>If Canon were to introduce a 50DE, and set the price difference between it and the 50D to be similar to the price differences between the ECF and non-ECF pairs of bodies they've released before, I wouldn't even have to think about it; I'd get the 50DE. Or, if I decided to buy a 5D II (or whatever it's going to be called) and they also introduced a 5D IIE with a similar price difference, I wouldn't have to think about that, either. And it surely wouldn't have to be a big price difference; they did the engineering a decade ago and it's surely already been paid for.</p>

 

<p>Interestingly enough, they continue to list ECF as a feature of the EOS system in their brochures. Their spring 2008 EOS system brochure, for instance, lists it on the second of six pages of EOS system features, and even goes so far as to point out that it's an exclusive Canon feature. It's listed before the Canon CMOS Sensor, DiG!C III/DiG!C&hbsp;II Image Processor, and even before the Full-Frame Canon CMOS Sensor. Strange that they'd make such a big deal about a feature that they don't think is important enough to include in any new body in almost a decade.</p>

There are some kinds of shooting where I've found ECF to be very useful: it works well for me having put a little effort in to calibration. At other times, when my eye needs to rove round the image, I simply switch it off. It's at its best in fast paced candid work in my experience. I'd be happy to see it re-appear on DSLRs.

I'm with the "wish we had ECF" crowd. I didn't use it all the time, but for many things it was a great feature. I would pay extra for it.

Normally, I feel that Canon won't listen to what customer need, it is all about marketing. If they feel the pressure from the competitor, they will do something. If happen or somehow Nikon introduce similar eye tracking AF in their system, I guess Canon will bring it back again. How many of us wish the EF 50mm f/1.4 should upgrade to real USM, but we just wait and wait... Now the pressure from SIgma, will see whether Canon will react later.