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Why Leica made a mistake


leon chang

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So there it is. The Leica M8. The camera we've all been curious for to see. To

me it's no real Leica though. Leica products are made to last forever and

retain their value. Many of their cameras even increase in value as the years

go by. I just don't see that happen with the M8. Can't imagine that even the

most solid and beautiful digital camera, is going to retain its value in the

age that we live in. When something better hits the market, the old will be

forgotten. I know Leica HAD to bring out the M8 to survive but I'm afraid it's

not going to be a succes. In a few years sensors quality will increase,

megapixels will increase and some cheaper mass produced camera will outpeform

the M8. After all, would anyone today still use a 2 MP digital camera from

say, 1998? You can surely get something better at a lower price.

 

I guess this is a development we can't stop. We are not in the analogue age

anymore......sniff... . So even if the M8 is fantastic and superb today, will

it still be so tomorrow?

 

With a film camera you would care about the evolution of film, not the whole

camera. You would use your camera for many years and use higher quality film

as it was introduced. I sure love the philosophy of Leica, I just don't think

it is valid anymore for the digital age. A Leica M8 will have a much shorter

lifespan than a film based Leica-M.

 

What's your opinion?

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i hear they developed a replacement silica so that you can do-it-yourself at home to upgrade and keep the value. but then m8 owners rejected the idea because they think by then the camera will have a few scuffs from genetal fondling at midnight in the dark. so leica scratched out that idea.
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"A Leica M8 will have a much shorter lifespan than a film based Leica-M."

 

I'm not sure I agree. Unless (a) the imaging system of the M8 is just lousy or (b) the user

just has to have the latest thing, I don't know why an M8 wouldn't be just a useful in 10

years as it is today. 10 megapixels with a good imaging system and outstanding lenses

can produce outstanding photos. And they will still be outstanding photos after the 20

megapixel M9 comes out and even when the 40 megapixel M10 hits the street. How many

people will really ever see what the image might look like at 20x40 inches?

It's the same as film cameras themselves. The first IIIf I bought was the most lovely thing.

It took wonderful photos and I shot thousands of photos with it. After the M3 came out, I

rarely used the IIIF, and the beat goes on. And while I love Leicas and still shoot 100 rolls a

year or so with them, one of my Canon 10Ds, three years old, just turned over to 32,000

exposures. Digital is seductive that way.

Yes, the electronics in the M8 will likely one day become irreplaceable. Sadly, the same

thing can probably be said about film. Modern times.

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So why not just quit making $5000 worth M8 body and let Panasoic do it for $1000? Leica can just keep making the lenses. I don't see the point of making or having an expensive body that the major technology in it only lasts 3 years. Sure 10mp is enough, as today a lot of people are happy with their 6mp's. But i am sure within 3 years there will be cheaper full frame sensors, better image processors, better anti-dust technology and etc. Does this new leica means leica is a reglion now? :)</br>

I just don't see any point to make a hi-tech digtal products 'build-to-last'.

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Photographers buy Leica because its perceived to be of the highest quality. Today no camera model will be made to last 20 years, such as the M3 did.

 

Times change and in order for Leica to continue as an on-going entity it too has to change. Hopefully they will update the digi as needed and continue to produce mechanical cameras for the niche market, or particularly explorers of extreme climates.

 

Many people will pony up for high quality. We all know the Corvette for example will shut down the Ferrari, even though people pony up 4X more for the custom Ferrari.

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With no upgrade capability, I think Leica missed the boat. The M8 should have included

clear, planned, and easy sensor and firmware upgradeability. We are all used to

technological obsolesence nowadays and would have more faith in the longevity of the M8 if

it were upgradeable. My 50-odd year old M2 is still going strong. What will the M8 be in 50

years? Does it make sense for a $5k investment? The glass is great and really makes the

Leica line worthwhile. Too bad, but the M8 is likely to have a detrimental effect on Leica's

fortunes. Personally, I don't intend to buy the M8 or Leica stock right now.

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I just can't rid myself of the notion that the cropped sensor sort of makes the M8 too prone to replacement in the coming years. I understand that a full frame RF sensor is still a ways away but I believe we'll see one eventually at which point the 1.33x M8 will seem fatally compromised to users such as myself.

 

If the M8 were full frame, I probably would buy one. The Canon 5D is now a year old and is probably looking at an upgrade come PMA in the spring but I could care less. It's full frame, it takes beautiful pictures, its 12.8 megapixels are MORE than enough for what I do, and it's built well enough for how I use it. If I could say the same about the M8 regarding the sensor size, I'd feel the same way about it as I do the 5D.

 

I hope Leica gets into bed with Canon for the M9. I see no reason why Canon would consider Leica to be competition if they limited their deal to the M-system and not the R-system.

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<blockquote>

 

"A Leica M8 will have a much shorter lifespan than a film based Leica-M." <p>

 

<i> I'm not sure I agree. Unless (a) the imaging system of the M8 is just lousy or (b) the user just has to have the latest thing, I don't know why an M8 wouldn't be just a useful in 10 years as it is today.

 

</blockquote> </i><p>

 

Film Leicas only have a 10-year lifespan? Thanks for clearing that up for us.

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Look at the beautiful shutter and sensor assembly on the M8. Now imagine they made the camera so in a few years I could buy the assembly (or have it installed) with a new 18 or 24Mp version, being able to use the same camera shell. That would make the M8 as timeless as other models.
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<i><blockquote> The Canon 5D is now a year old and is probably looking at an upgrade come PMA in the spring but I could care less. It's full frame, it takes beautiful pictures, its 12.8 megapixels are MORE than enough for what I do, and it's built well enough for how I use it.

</blockquote> </i><p>

 

The 7D, a more affordable full-frame 12.8MP model, is expected to come out at PMA, selling for $2100 street price. This time next year it will under $2,000. Given howlong it took for Leica to birth the M8, and the necessary time to recoup costs (not to mention the upheaval of its new reign under new owners), how likely is it that it can compete? Or is Leica simply depending on a certain percentage of its existing-yet-dwindling base to jump onto the M8 to maintain cash flow?

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If Leica makes money from the M8 and is still solvent in a couple of year's time and still has a future; no mistake.

 

If most of the people who spent 5000 dollars on it, enjoy it and continue to be loyal to Leica and plan to to buy more product; no mistake.

 

The market will decide if it is a mistake or not.

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"What will the M8 be in 50 years?"

 

An M8. Unlike many or most of us who will be worm food.

 

 

"Does it make sense for a $5k investment?"

 

Hell no. But neither can you take pictures with a plot of real estate.

 

"Too bad, but the M8 is likely to have a detrimental effect on Leica's fortunes."

 

how do you figure the 30-45 million they've got in pre-orders before the first M8 goes on sale is evidence you're on the right track?

 

"Personally, I don't intend to buy the M8 or Leica stock right now."

 

So far that's the only irrefutable statement you've made.

 

"I know Leica HAD to bring out the M8 to survive but I'm afraid it's not going to be a succes."

 

Contradiction please. It's success is already a done deal.

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In general I agree to some extent. But Trevor's point is important- as

long as it keeps Leica around, it's a good move. The days of building most things to

last forever are over- look at any kind of technology.<p> But in the case of the M8,

look at it this way. If a

professional photographer buys an M8 (or a 1DSmkII, or D2X for that matter), they

spend $4000-$8000 for a tool. It's a tax write-off; and it helps them to earn a living.

Even if it's trash in 5 years, they will buy another and not worry about it as part of the

cost of

doing business. <p> I shoot weddings, among other things, and I still shoot film,

since my love for photography is tied to fine tradtional prints and darkroom craft.

But this is 2006. In

moving towards integrating digital technology in my workflow, I'll consider the M8,

since it will allow me to carry lenses and

accesories for only one system, which is a big bonus for me. I charge between $2000

and $8000 per job typically, so how many jobs do I need to shoot to pay for this

camera, and for how many jobs will it be viable as professional tool? Not such a bad

deal when you look at it that way. It's the only reason I will consider it.

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When the Digilux 2 came out with 5mp many said it would be a flop. When they saw the incredible pictures it produced they kept quiet, Now it is the only camera with a Vario-Summicron a marvellous lens. The Digilux 3 only has a Vario Elmarit. The Digilux 2 is holding its price. I will bet that in two years it will be come a collectors item ans still take better pictures than most digital cameras.
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Leica have probably timed things just about right : The rate of improvement is slowing

down as the equivalent to typical film use threshold has been crossed. Future

improvements will be Incremental and nowhere as extreme as a 2Mpixel to 10Mpixel

transition.

 

Leica does not design the main line cameras to primarily 'last forever and retain their

value' - they are valued by us because the are exceptionally useful tools.

 

The development of a digital M 'platform' for the M8 will certainly make the cycle time to

the M9 shorter and easier. So yes, the M8 may only be in production for a couple of years,

but the M8 will still take just as good ( if not better - with software upgrades ) pictures in

5 or 10 years. Conversely Film development in many areas has declined in some minority

areas - witness the demise of Techpan, Ektar 25 etc.

 

There is even apparently a shortage of Tri-X in the UK at the moment ( Jessops - not that I

primarily shop there, but it's sometimes handy, has none in the 6 nearest shops to me and

700 rolls on back order with Kodak ).

 

We are all used to replacing computers every few years: some last longer than others, my

relatively expensive Apple 500MHz G4 cube is still in use as my Unix/OS X workstation at

work but 2 PCs have passed by in that same time. Similarly the M8 will last longer than

most cameras, because mass market offerings, will never have the features that

Rangefinder users so cherish - large clear optical viewfinders, manual focus and superb

handling and build etc.

 

I don't want ( and can't afford ) a M8 just at the moment, but It seems inevitable that

pressures of film availability, X-ray and travel restrictions etc., will force an increasingly

large number of us to decide we cannot afford not to pay up and adopt a M8 ( or the next

DRF ).

 

Overall, I suspect that, if the M8 acceptably good, in 2007 it will out sell the MP/M7 10:1

and by next Photokina, it ( or it's upgrade ) will cost no more than a new MP/M7.

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<p>You're right: the M8 will become obsolete far quicker than any other Leica model. But

that's not the only consideration for someone contemplating buying one. I think it's also

important to consider how much film you shoot now. </p>

 

<p>Anybody who gets through a lot of film probably has substantial processing/scanning

costs. If you currently shoot 80 rolls a month and buy E6 or B+W processing, and perhaps

spend a few hours each month scanning, then it will pay for itself in about 14 weeks. If

you're a prolific film user with a penchant for Leica then it's a no-brainer. And even more

so if you have an existing investment in M lenses.</p>

 

<p>Naturally, this profile doesn't fit everyone. But there are a lot of people for whom the

M8 makes perfect sense even on a basic economic level. Issues of longevity may not be

uppermost in their minds.</p>

 

<p>Regards,<br/>Neil</p>

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