Why Ebony

Please humor a naive but sincere question. What is it about an Ebony

that makes it so costly? I currently own a Cambo monorail, and I had

a Tachihara 4x5, so those serve as my reference points. Is it the

wood that's used, the titanium, or what? I can see some premium in

price for higher-cost materials, but I can't understand a price that's

almost 4 times the Tachihara or Shen-Hao. Thanks.

I have a Wista -- not an Ebony -- I've seen an Ebony. It looks like a really nice camera. It has features that mine doesn't have .. Interchangable bellows. It comes with a compendium hood (or option). They are very nice. It has an interesting bellows that looks like it might be a great design. I'd like a chance to really review one. It looks to be solid.

Well, the truth is that it's the price tag, that makes certain brands so costly. There's a segment of the market that is willing to pay outrageous prices for high quality stuff, and if that's the market segment you want to target (and your stuff is good) then that's where you'll set your prices.

 

I started with a Calumet monorail and later bought a Calumet Wood Field XM, which is a relabeled Tachihara. That's my price point, and maybe yours as well.

I am not sure about Ebony usage in large format cameras, that is if it improves any picture quality?

 

However, in violin design, finger boards, pegs, etc, if made from Ebony, it certainly improves the sound, and icreases instrument price.

 

Ebony is more resistant than other woods to human oil and sweat from finers. Ebony is resistant to rosin powder that is used to prepare bows, and add necessary friction between the horse hair in bow, and the strings.

I've seen Ebony cameras a few times, and they are objects of beauty. The craftmanship

seems first rate. I may be wrong but I believe they're all hand made and I think the founder

of the company still does much of the work. The materials seem to be first rate. As the

poster above noted, there will always be some people who are willing to pay (and can

afford to pay) a high price tag for a quality, limited production camera. Not that they are

limited edition per se, but if they hired a factory full of workers they could make more of

'em, and probably drop the price a bit. I don't know the numbers, but I bet a LOT more

Tachiharas and Shen-Haos roll of the line every year.

 

Is it worth it? That's up to you. I don't have an ebony, I prefer working with metal cameras

since to me, they feel more precise and solid. It comes down to using the tool that's right

for you.

The wood Ebony is very dense and expensive. I once saw a documentary on NOVA on how they make Clarinets from Ebony.The wood has to undergo many different steps before it can be used.The wood which is getting scarce, comes from Africa. I don't think a camera made of Ebony will take any better photos,but your fingers will not stick to it when photographing something at 40 degrees below zero.

Aesthetics and titanium aside, the Ebony cameras have a variety of features that support their pricepoint. Large, solid controls. Separate controls for axis tilt and rise/fall. Asymmetric focusing (some models). Dual spirit levels combined with a mirror that is mounted on the top of the rear standard, so that the camera is easy to level on a ballhead (most models). Universal bellows (some models). Articulated bag bellows (versus the more common "pancake" bellows) that folds up with the camera. Smoother operation than a Shen Hao or Tachihara. More rigid and less idiosyncratic (for some) than a Canham.

 

Specific models have additional unique features. To my knowledge, the SV45U2 has more bellows extension than any other modern 4x5 camera (I use every bit of it to support a Fuji 600C lens). The SV810 supports a 150mm lens without dropping the bed, and the universal bellows supports partial and full movements with 150mm and 210mm lenses, respectively. The non-folding Ebony's are relatively unique in their construction, are fast to set up and tear down, can be packed with a lens installed, and excel as wide-angle cameras.

Add craftsmanship and name recognition to these features, and the result is the price points you are seeing.

 

Do any of these features ultimately make better pictures? No, but they make getting better pictures easier. If you are looking for essential LF functionality at the most attractive price point, then by all means go for the Shen Hao or Tachihara. If you have a bit more money to spend, and have a good idea as to which additional features will improve your workflow, then a more feature-rich camera like an Ebony might be justified.

<b>Reason 1:</b><br>

I own an Ebony SV45U and use it almost daily. Before the Ebony I owned a Wisner TF. The Wisner operated quite flimsy when compared to the Ebony. The Ebony field performs more like a precise and rigid view camera.

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<b>Reason 2:</b><br>

I own a few classical guitars and have always preferred an ebony fretboard for its smoothness, hardness and playability, so for me I had already known about the different woods and strengths of each.

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<b>Reason 3:</b><br>

I shoot about 75% of my film in the 6x9" format with the Ebony and Horseman backs. The 6x9" reduction back is like none other out there. You compose thru the ground glass and then open a door to load the roll film magazine. On other 4x5" cameras I have used with the 6x9" format, you had to remove the entire back to use the roll film holder which makes composing on the ground glass impossible.

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<b>Reason 4:</b><br>

I needed a modification done to an old Cambo Reflex Hood for the Ebony. After speaking to two LF repair people here in the USA (and experienced a bit of sticker shock), Jeff at Badger Graphics handled the modification thru his agent in Japan. In two weeks I had the Reflex Hood back in perfect working condition and $100 less than the other quotes.

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<b>Reason 5:</b><br>

The Universal Bellows makes it unnecessary for me to use a bag bellows with my Rodenstock 90mm.

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<b>Reason 6:</b><br>

Asymmetrical tilts and swings replace center tilts and swings on back standard allowing perfect focus to be maintained during adjustments.

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<b>Reason 7:</b><br>

It is a gorgeous handmade camera that is not only rigid and precise, but lightweight as well. I bought the Ebony when I retired from commercial work as a gift to myself. I can only say that "I deserve it" and "I definitely worked for it."

Steve,

 

Although I don't personally have an Ebony... I'd dearly love one! :)

 

It's the old analogy of... a Patek Phillipe and a Timex will both give you the time of the day

(fairly) accurately. However, there's something "special" about owning a time piece that's

made extremely well... and with rare materials. :)

 

That's probably the same with the Ebony versus Tachihara/Shen-Hao comparison. It's not

that the Ebony will necessarily make better images than you could with either of the above

two cameras. It's just that you'll "feel" better about making the image with the Ebony. :)

 

Personally speaking, I use to own a 4x5 Tachihara and didn't like the way it handled/felt in

comparison to a Dorff... I much prefer the way the Dorff handles. There's just more

"oomph" to it. I'd imagine it would be the same with the Ebony.

 

Lastly, Eric and Darlene makes some good points about the functional differences between

the various cameras. The asymmetrical tilts and swings are great features to have... as are

the individual locks on the front tilt and rise/fall. (I wish the Dorff had these features! :))

 

My suggestion... try and take one out for a spin! :) Then, you'll know! :)

 

Cheers

Mr Skomial, in my opinion ebony might be good for some other purposes, but not for LF cameras. I think that Ebony is the worst possible material for a large format camera. I have several old LF cameras made either entirely of ebony or partially. What they have in common is that there are lots of cracks in every part made of ebony as it has dried out during several decades. Also when it has dried, it becomes very brittle and makes the camera non-usable.

I've owned two Ebony cameras, the 45SVTi and the 45SVTe. Both were very nice cameras but I thought they were overpriced for what you got compared to other cameras for less money but equally well built, with equal or longer bellows extension, and equal or more movements. The best thing about them was the little flip-up mirror used to view the level. Otherwise I thought they were nothing special. I sold mine about a year after first buying one. I've never owned the model with the asymetrical back. Others like that feature but it increases the cost by about $1,200 over the approximate $2,500 cost of the ones I owned. For $1,200 I don't mind refocusing a couple times when the back is tilted or swung.

I had an ebony for about a week before returning it (it was a used camera, and the dealer didn't think it necessary to mention that the bellows had been damaged since "all of our used field cameras look like that").

 

It was certainly beautifully executed, but the titanium hardware didn't suit me with its higher degree of stiction than I was used to -- I later discovered that their website addresses this, possibly to reassure owners that it's to be expected with titanium.

 

I'm sure I'd enjoy having one but it's so nice that I'd be uncomfortable watching it accumulate the invevitable dings and scrapes that accumulate over time.

My Ebony 45SU is a beautiful, practical instrument that is very efficient in making pictures.

For me, with it asymetric facility brings LF and movements towards the speed of medium

format on a tripod in the field. I can set mine up and shoot with tilts and rising front in

less than 3 minutes if I so choose. Without that feature, I might not want to shoot LF in

the field.

 

I can't justify its cost to you, although materials are excellent and most features of the

design work very well and the asymetric tilts are fabulous and not available on many field

cameras. At ?1,000 the feature was a big consideration, but I wouldn't be without it now.

 

It cost me 4x the value of my previous Linhof Technika, I struggled to pay the price and

am pleased to have what in my limited experience is the best LF for my needs. Highest

quality usually brings with it diminishing returns in any field - watches, hi-fi, cars, even

perfumes and it's the same with the best field cameras, whatever make.

My first 4x5 was a used Tachihara in great shape and I loved it. However, when one of the

nuts fell off I decided it was time to move up. I got an Ebony RW45 and the difference in

build quality is pretty amazing.

 

What I prefer in the Ebony as opposed to the Tachihara: It folds up much more smoothly

than my Tachihara did, has longer bellows, a Grafloc back and build quality.

 

Balancing out the longer bellows, the Tachihara was more convenient to use with wide

angle lenses. My 75 and 90 mm lenses worked well on the Tachihara; with the Ebony

RW45 I have to use base and axis tilts.

 

To me, the build quality of the RW45 makes it worth the price.

 

Larry

Steve, there are many reasons to praise Ebony cameras but there will also be those who dismiss their "hype" as a marketing gimmick and that they are not better than "brand X". In my opinion, they are simply the best (wooden)large format camera anyone could invest in. In fact there are very few metal cameras that are better! There are myths about the (high) cost being due to the materials used in their construction - this is partly true but this is only part of the reason they are the ultimate (and one of the most expensive) wooden cameras. The truth is the design, build quality and finish are exquisite. There is nothing that comes close to an Ebony. Sure, you can still take lousy pictures with one :) But you can take lousy photos with a Leica? The "thrill" of owning an Ebony is found when you use it! They are simply lovely cameras to use! That's it! No secret! Despite the price they are an excellent investment and make LF photography a real pleasure.

I haven't owned an Ebony, however the one's I have handled I have admired greatly. They are solid precise and elegantly light in weight in proportion to their handling. It is like the difference between a Yugo and a Volvo or BMW if you are comparing against a Shen Hao. Both will get you there.

 

Personally, I shoot with a MT2000. Lot's of bucks, but it is a pleasure to use and depend on as well as very reliable. An old adage is you get what you pay for. (BTW, Titanium is very tricky to machine I wish my Linhof was made of titanium.)

I have owned an Ebony 45SU.<p>

 

Likes:<p>

 

Lightweight nonfolding = easy set up.<p>

 

Dislikes: <p>

 

Not the best focusing screen/fresnel - plan to buy Maxwell's screen for the best solution.<br>

 

Focusing mechanism a bit fiddly and not so precise.<p>

 

Now I use an Arca Swiss Field.<p>

 

Likes:<p>

 

Great ground glass/fresnel out of the box. <br>

 

Very precise focusing and movements<br>

 

More rigid.<p>

 

Dislikes:<p>

 

A bit heavy but not that bad.

Here's another satisfied Ebony owner. It should be noted that Ebony cameras are available in mahogany as well, which will save approx. one pound of carry weight. Mahogany is not as durable as ebony, but one should generally take care with a camera of this expense.

 

I think that (metal) cameras such as the Linhof or Toyo AII are finer and more precise cameras (almost specifically through rigidity and geared movements), but are hindered by minimal movements and short bellows draw. I have the SV45Ti, and I have only once come up against the limits of my camera's movements or bellows. It's worth paying for a camera that will always deliver the goods, no matter the situation.

I have the cheapest Ebony - the RSW. I got it not because it was cheap but because most of my photography is wide angle and the bellows accommodate my Schneider 150, 80, and 47mm lenses with no faffing about with recessed lensboards, fitting special ungainly bag bellows, etc. I would have paid more for tilt on the rear standard, but this can be mimicked by tilting the whole camera up and then tilting forward and dropping the front standard. But I don't need that facility that often. And for the rare occasions I use my 210mm or 270mm lenses I use the back extender and / or top hat lens board.

 

The point is that 90% of my needs are met just by ordinary, semi standard (linhof style) front boards.

 

Also the camera is real easy to set up, as there is no unfolding, etc, you just rack the standards out.

 

If I used longer lenses, I would probably still have got an Ebony, sat the 45S, for that feature.

 

JayDee

If you got the bucks why not blow it on an Ebony. The Ebonywood is certainly beautiful. But there are lots of photogs thru the years that made genius work with cameras that the current owners of "Upscale/Posh" LF cameras would perhaps think not be quite up to their "talents". The real reason that Ebony cameras are expensive is the "Myth" factor. They have a unique place in the LF world much like Leica. They are just wood, leather, and metal like any other LF field camera. Some of the extra expense...according to Ebony... is that labor in Japan is very expensive. Personally I like their non folding models, but not enough to buy one. I don't believe the woodworking is that great or complicated (it does not have anywhere near the detail or finish of a fine guitar) or the metal work is that fine, Arca and Linhof is way better/smoother, better finished. Or the leather handle is that great, Wisner's is better, Ebony's looks like an ordinary belt w/ no padding. The Ebony bellows is another matter. That seems most excellent. I think the real reason for the "Myth" is that the Ebony seems to be a coherant, holistic and complete camera that is more than the sum of it's parts. But what happens when your 9 grand Ebony 8x10 gets a dent or the wind blows it over or any other mishap for that matter....

to your questions...

 

1. Why Ebony?

So you can tell folks you're using one

 

2. Why are they so expensive?

This has nothing to do with the ROI of this particular camera. the bottom line is that it's not that much better than any other wooden camera out there, and as my experience mirrors brian's, IMHO, inferior to metal cameras for field use. more to the point, they are expensive for three reasons...

1. Japan is the only country with higher labor costs than the US

2. Titanium is a very expensive material to use (and the appropriateness of it in this particular application is questionable)

3. Implied Value... most people automatically relate price and quality.

 

i have owned two ebonies and was underwhelmed with them both.

Scott,

 

1. Why Ebony? So you can tell folks you're using one.

 

That doesn't have much return as few people actually know what a field camera is never

mind any specific make. People seem to be more impressed by a phone camera or maybe

the 1Ds, "is that a Mk II?" Don't think your question adds any contribution to the

discussion.

 

2. Why are they so expensive?

 

3. Implied Value... most people automatically relate price and quality.

 

i have owned two ebonies and was underwhelmed with them both.

 

If you say so, but I am sceptical of that to be honest.

 

I have owned an MPP Mk 7 and two Linhof Technikas, Mk IV and V, and I did not like them

at all. Using a 65mm lens in the Linhof was near impossible for me. The Ebony 45SU was

liberating. Having said that, the best collection of prints that I have handled were created

on an old MPP, so everybody to their own. You like your Kiev, I prefer my Hasselblad.

Makes the word go around.

 

I agree with on the point about quality equipment not making quality images on its own,

but photography is multi-sided in its returns and owning well made kit is one of them for

some.

gary,

 

you do not know me nor have you any insight into my photographic pursuits or predilections so i find it quite humorous that you have chosen to impugn my honor with your implication. if you must know, i went through quite a number of field cameras whilst seeking the one that worked best in my hands, 2 ebonies amongst them - an RW45 and an SV45Ti to be specific.

 

now, as to your skepticism of my claim that i have owned two ebonies and was underwhelmed with them both, what are you unclear on - that i owned two or that i was underwhelmed by them? if it's the former, that's a bit ridiculous, as i mentioned earlier, we've never met and you certainly have no notion of the means i have at my disposal to make purchases. if it is the later, well, that's the special form of ignorance found all too frequently on these quasi-anonymous forums whereby one presumes to know what another will find of use. i found the ebony cameras to be less rigid than i was comfortable with, which is not entirely surprising for someone used to using metal cameras.

 

as to my contribution to the thread, i believe i answered steve's question directly... ebony cameras are expensive for a variety of reasons, the high cost of titanium and japanese labor contributing heavily to the overall cost.

Scott,

 

you're taking this more personally than intended, but now you know that you can deal with

it as you wish.

 

1. Why Ebony? So you can tell folks you're using one.

 

Was that not a provocvative statement to irritate every Ebony owner that has found that

the features of the cameras actually suit their way of working and pocket, ambitions,

inclinations...... it certainly wasn't a positive response to the question in hand.

 

2. Why are they so expensive?

 

In the real world they charge what the market can stand to meet their volume aspirations.

You points may be accurate, but your tone comes over again as taking the piss.

 

i have owned two ebonies and was underwhelmed with them both.

 

Without the comment you added in your later post on rigidity this comment was again

worthless, honest maybe but worthless. Again it comes across as a snipe at the brand

and the owners.

 

My apologies if I've mis-judged you.

 

Aside from this, your website displays many excellent images

gary,<br><br>

 

online forums are good for many things, unfortunately, they are prone to certain misunderstandings, as it is not possible to communicate subtleties like tone and body language. i meant no offense, and certainly hope the ebony owners on the forum take no umbrage by my response. i have found that ebony cameras, at the price point they sell for, come with a certain cachet, and this appeals to certain photographers, not all, but a few to be sure. for someone who tried two ebony cameras, one low-end and one high-end, i found there are better options for me for the money. for me, there is no reason to shoot with an ebony, unless i desired the cachet that that particular camera carries - which i certainly don't concern myself with - as i found alternatives that better do what i desire in a camera. after passing a wide variety of cameras through my bag, i have settled on what works best for me. ebony did not make the cut, but i know several photographers that swear by them. like you said earlier, our differences make the world go round.<br><br>

 

my apologies for getting this thread off track. i shall leave it by simply saying that i tried two ebony cameras and choose otherwise for a variety of reasons, chief among them...<br><br>

 

1. rigidity - being used to metal cameras, i found the ebony cameras sloppy by comparison<br>

2. set-up / take down time - it took me longer to fold / unfold the ebony then some other cameras<br>

3. ease of use - i did not like having to switch between focusing knobs<br>

4. perceived long-term durability of a wooden camera that will be heavily used out-of-doors.