Why can we not all get along and learn something?

I've been a paying member of PN for over 1 year. While it's not

perfect, (what is?) it is a wonderful forum to view other's images,

post our own images, and offer and recieve feedback and learn. What

more might one ask? Well here goes, (Warning, I tend to get long

winded, bare with me):

 

In a perfect world, we would all be outstanding photographers and

our images would all be without fault. But... this is not a perfect

world. Many of us on PN are amateurs, only a few are professionals,

but I think one could agree we all have two things in common:

 

1- We are all still learning.

2- We all are intersted in photography

 

A message to all:

 

When posting a photo on PN you are opening yourself up to critique,

whether through ratings or critique comments. If you can not

separate yourself personally from your image, you are destined to

get your feelings hurt. When feelings get hurt, some retaliate with

anger and verbalization and some retaliate through low ratings of

the photographer who hurt your feelings. Some do both. This is

wrong.

 

I am aware, that some members on PN do not have any finesse when it

comes to critiques. They can be blunt, rude and down right annoying.

As I write this, several members names come to mind. But instead of

retailating with similar rude behavior and angry low ratings on

their images, why not try a novel idea. Why not try to get to know

that person a little better.

 

To those who think they have received rude comments instead of

contructive critique:

 

Instead of responding with an angry retort, which is so easy to do,

take the time to ask the person to explain their critique better, so

you may better understand, without becoming angry, exactly what they

meant. Remember, you are not your image, and your image is not you.

It's just an image. And you posted it to PN, which, again, means you

have voluntarily opened yourself up to critiques, both positive and

negative. Obviously, not everyone is going to love and adore all of

our images. Learn to expect that some will not like your image. It's

just a fact of PN life, not an attack on you personally.

 

To those that lack the finesse to be able to point out image flaws

without being rude, enraging & biting:

 

Please read your comments a little more carefully before you post

them. I believe your intent is not to anger or enrage the person who

took the photo you are critiquing, but rather, to point out the

flaws of the image. Lately, it seems to me, I may be wrong, but I

have seen so many angry statements in the critique section directed

more at the photographer than at the photo. This is not good. It

divides people into camps, and does a disservice to us all.

Remembering, it's not what you say, but how you say it that makes

the difference.

 

I think it's time we call a truce and take a step backwards and look

at what we are really saying and doing.

 

For example: I read on critique recently, to paraphrase so as not to

give the critiquer's identity away. I, personally liked the image

along with a vast majority of other PN members.

 

[What I see in this image is just a bunch of squiggly lines, if you

had stopped the lens down 2 stops you might have captured something

more, but the image is of something that has been over rated anyway

and even if you had shot the image correctly it still would not be

of any value. Try another less done vantage point]

 

I ask, was this valuable critique? Maybe. But I think critique of

this nature does one of two things. Either it angers the recipient

or the recipient soon recognizes the member as a crank and doesn't

listen even if the advice is good. Thus, no one listens to this

critiquer any more, they are just tolerated. So sad for the

critiquer because they may really have some wonderful advice to

offer. If the critiquer would have taken just a little more time and

said,

 

" I think you could have improved this image if you would have

increased the DOF. As it is, I find it hard to make out all the

wonderful details. While most people find this vantage point a

magnificent view (and it is), it has been done so frequently, it has

become a little common. If you get a chance to visit again, may I

suggest a less photographed vantage point to make your image a

little more unique and interesting."

 

I know....... they both say basically the same thing, but..... one

gave some validity to the photographer and his image while the other

just degraded the image, bluntly. Big difference. One statement says

I put some thought into this and I respect you as a fellow

photographer and I am offering some solid advice, the other is just

quick, cold, impersonal and stinging.

 

I could offer many more examples of rude, blunt statements by

several other members and also retaliatory statements by still other

members. This type of attack and retaliation seems to be getting

more and more previlent, almost like a microcosm of our world. Our

we going to allow this to happen? The Arabs against the Americans?

The Italians against the French? The English against the Canadians.

Is this what we really want? Not me!

 

I do not expect my statements here to change a single person's mind,

but I would only ask that before you post a critique, you re-read

your posting and ask yourself,"Is this really what I wanted to

say?" "If someone wrote this on one of my images, how would I

feel?" "Have I shown kindness, respect and common courtesy to the

photographer and have I offered some information that they may be

able to use in the future to improve their work?" or "Have I just

made my opinion known, without a thought to how I might make others

feel? I just don't care!". If you still choose to post a blunt or

biting critique, that's fine, but at least you have thought twice

about it.

 

In a perfect world, we would all observe the Golden Rule (do unto

others as we would have them do unto us).

 

We would all be outstanding photographers.

 

We would all get along.

 

We would all be willing to teach others that have less knowledge

than we do to help them grow and improve.

 

Sadly, it's never going to happen.

 

 

I like to believe that all comments, even those that lack finesse

and are blunt and biting have merit. I may not agree with them and

that's ok, they still have the right to their opinion. I have

received many such comments myself. At first, I was hurt & angry,

but after I thought about it, most times they had some validity. But

my feelings could have been spared and I could have learned without

pain or hurt feelings, if they had just put a little more thought

and finesse into their comments.

 

Some people are teachers, some people are not. Some people have

finesse, some people don't. Some people respect others, some people

don't. Some people get angry, some people get hurt. Some people are

great photographers, and some people are not. This is life. But here

on PN, we have such a wonderfully rare collection of people from all

over the world, all interested in the same subject, photography.

 

I ask again. Why can we not all get along peacefully and learn

something from each other?

Because we're not all nice people.

thats the way god planned it, thats the way god wanted it to be.

Actually there are a lot of people who are civil in real life but online, they switch into this malicious mode for some reason. Some of them post by their real name (many of these do not) which indicates that they don't have a clue that something's wrong with their behaviour. Such is the nature of the internet.

 

Who's god?

<p><a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0001Wf">Groundhog day</a>

 

<p>Try using the search feature you pinhead.</p>

 

<p>Just kidding.

That's quite a sermon Jayme. Thankfully we're all different.

<...bare with me>

 

We don't have to get along that well do we?

because if we did just think of how big our holiday gift list would be...ya'll are gett'n coal from me. Wait..with the price of heat, I'm keeping all the coal for myself.

 

Jayme, I understand where youre coming from.

As you can see Jayme, from the responses that you are receiving, that some people just don't care to help another human being. In my critiques, though I was sorely tempted to behave otherwise, I have always tried to be tactful and offer what I thought to be helpful suggestions. A person learns very little constructive knowledge when you beat him into the ground. But the result from my effort is that I have been labeled as a sugar-coating candy ass who indulges in cronyism. <p>

Your idea to try to understand the beligerent critic and rater has merit; but why should the onus of responsibility to understand be placed soley on you or me. Should not the critic be subject to the Golden Rule as well.<p>

And what do you do with the rater whose goal is to normalize a perceived distortion in the level of ratings being assigned? We have a few of this type of member here. He or she is motivated not by a concern for an honest evaluation of the photograph, but rather a desire to pursue an agenda completely unrelated to the quality of the artist's efforts.<p>

So your question as to why we all can not communicate in a civil manner with a common binding thread of photographic pursuit is because not all the members are honest enough to do so. Honest not only with each other, but with oneself as well. In my opinion. Regards.

what i find interesting is that you can get a hatefull response within 2.7 seconds.It makes you wonder if some people haven't allready run off everyone around them with there rude demeaner and now they are limited to there dank little rooms and keyboards to potshoot people nieve enough to put there hearts on line for all to see... these mean little souls are lucky they didn't come about a 100 years ago when people needed people to survive. Nasty little trolls like this died in there cabins in winter and the rats picked there bones come spring....your right all the way Jayme. And your life will be better for your kindness to others. And to the rude, hatefull little trolls may the rats dine happily.

their.....

nibbles and bites...

Jayme some of these people are not worth being friends with. After seeing Bob Atkin's reply, would you want to be his friend? Jayme just keep being your self. You can not change a miserable loser so don't bother. I agree with Kevin, let the rats dine happily.

<i>After seeing Bob Atkin's reply, would you want to be his friend?</i><P>

Bob provided a concise and accurate answer to Jayme's question. He wasn't the least bit nasty or rude. He response was, in fact, far more civil than many of the negative and mean-spirited replies that followed. Why wouldn't you want to be Bob's friend?

Amazing what the anonymity of the internet does to people. I would be willing to wager the vast majority (but certainly not all) of the people who are hateful and rude and self-righteous on the "world wide web" would not have the inclination (or is it nerve) to speak that way to anyone's face. Let the haters be haters and ignore them. The attention they draw feeds their egos.

Very well written Jayme and bravely put forth.

 

A posted image is subject to both good and bad critique. By definition its to be an honest evaluation but only in the critique'rs opinion. Its highly subjective but ideally done without bias or motives.

 

There are time contraints here with so many images, and your own workload agenda for your allotted time on PN. People get sharp and to the point and its seen all the time on every major pic in the trp..beautiful, this and that, wonderful.... a short curt responce. Nobody seems to have a problem when words are curtly said in praise. Should i write....

 

Gee i hate to make you blush, really sorry, but beautiful image. Would a 7/7 be too much? If you think so please get back and i'll modify that rating.

 

Of course thats rediculous and the issue here really is seperation of ones self from the art being presented. To be judged objectivly by anybody worldwide. Politics come natural to the equation in the sense we are dealing with a media here that is technicaly dependant. In a third world country for instance, owning even modest equipment is a luxury afforded few. The few that can compete on the world level against cams and lenses that comprise their entire years salary are at a distinct disavantage. You get what you pay for in photography to a large extent.

 

Birds of a feather...always holds true. Its only spirit in action and done innocently. Some measure the factors of this in the equation and to some here in the more affulent parts of the world it just doesn't occur to take all this into account and coldly and objectivly treat a pic as a pic as it should be done. We all post a pic with great expectations of course, most times to have that illusion shattered when it enters reality. By mutual interest and comrodary people in smaller countries form groups, you see it all the time here. Nothing wrong there its just pride of country at work...now it hits the reality of the real world and the wake up call takes place. People tend to say "i'm ok your ok" and convince themselves as a group its new sliced bread....the opinion of 10 people together is much harder to reason with than one. They read other things into it.

 

Language is another major issue. This is english and a native of english like myself can be quickly be miscontruded in motives by a second language reader. They fail to understand the fine inferences key to seeing the big pic in the proper light....and i fail in taking this into account through continuity of speech or plain ignorance of the fact that a name such as Joe Average, is actually a guy in Chile say, who just learned english on his own.

 

Everything we talk about on this forum seems to come down to a ratings rant eventually. We say we care, we don't care, we are neutral. The only prize at the end a bit of recognition...awareness our efforts actually are appriciated. My personal opinion is the rating system should be entirely scrapped. It doesn't work and creates too much misunderstanding and time waste. Its counter productive to have to argue some guy low rates your work in the face of so many that rate it high...just in the effort to get it higher and brings greed into the equation.

 

Most interesting is the most interesting...function on this site. Its genius by design and is the fail safe of the ratings system. Its really the ultimate ego booster to click that...who's interested in ME thing...and to have to scroll the thing...the bigger the scroll the bigger the smile. The more the meaning of being here. The less any single pic plays a part of the community at large.

 

There are people with stunning pic that interest me very little and others with horrible ones that have ports fun and real. A glimpse into a life far away as they see it is most interesting. A friendship through visuals is most interesting. The fact someone says...hay Paul you interest me!! and clicks that thing, to me outweighs any rating or comment or even the port comments themselves....people can use ratings to mate themselves and make you feel you owe them for giving to you...but when they want to come back and see your stuff or you cause they value that, well that has a profound meaning.

 

I truly marvel at the rock solid foundations of this site and the good people like Jayme above who go out of their way to see things as they really are and to keep the context down to earth. Nothing can destroy it's genius of design, just as no lousy rate or bad word can ever make a beautiful pic ugly. Thanks Jayme and all.

"Why wouldn't you want to be Bob's friend?"

 

Have you seen his self-portrait?

 

http://www.photo.net/shared/portrait.tcl?user_id=14630

I appreciate all the statements above. Leave it to Knicki (super nice lady & a wonderful photographer) to interject some humor. Humor is one point I failed to mention. Without a little humor, life would be so much less enjoyable! Thanks Knicki- I'm keeping my coal too, LOL.

 

The point being, as Bob Atkins put it, we ARE not all nice people. I can live with that. But I choose to believe all people are inherently GOOD. They learn to be BAD. It IS our responsibility as human beings to take a little more time to find out exactly what it is that makes them BAD or GOOD. This knowledge helps solves problems.

 

If each member took the time with just one problematic PN member, to find out, exactly what's up with that memeber, we might actually have a better environment, less adversarial, in which to learn.

 

For example: In my early days on PN, a young man came into my portfolio and several others and made rude comments and rated all images poorly. I went to his portfolio, looked over his images and realized he was a young amateur. I gave him honest, helpful critic and advised him that rude behavior was inappropriate and if he wanted help with his photography to let me know. By golly he did. He apologozed for his behavior and we have been friends every since. He admitted he was intimidated by others better than himself on PN and responded inappropriately. We have since laughed. I asked him not to change his ratings on my photos, because that was not the point. The point was he just needed direction and attention. A Validation of sorts, others were ignoring him, he was not getting any feedback and he was frustrated. Thus, leading to inappropriate behavior. That was simple.

 

I have done the same with many others. The result has been a positive experience for me, I have learned something positive from each one of them and I feel I am a better person for this knowledge.

 

The point is, we ARE different. That IS the wonderful thing about our world. Can we not appreciate the differences and learn from those differences? I love looking at the landscapes of Poland and the deserts of the Middle East. I love the blue skies of Norway and the Canadian buildings. I love the green landscapes of Malaysia. The lighthouses of New England. The mountains and deserts of the American West. The sand and surf of Hawaii. The French wine country. The English countryside. The Italian landscapes. All are so amazing.

 

But I too enjoy the moody images put forth by people such as Knicki, when they are trying to make a moral point. And the funny images in their quirky manner, like Bob Kurt. Just to mention a few. They are all wonderful in their own right. And what of the PNers that post absolutely wonderful images of children. Children from all over the world make their way to PN. Some showing the wonderful joys and some showing the terrible hardships that befall children all over the world. Every single one is important, maybe not every single one is done by someone who is a wonderful photographer, but each one has a message. It's that message we should all be looking for and learning from. Good photography doesn't need explanation. It just is.

 

And Paul- You never cease to amaze me. You bring up a wonderful point about looking at that "most interesting list". You are right, that IS fun and exciting. Paul, we all know the trouble you can get yourself into, but your excellent photography speaks for it'self. You can teach us all a few things. Your amazing ability to link your photos to music is purely amazing and unique! Now tone the critiques down, you don't need to be angry, you're an excellent photographer, act like one! People have noticed you, you're really good!

 

John- you can do much better than "their". You have so much to offer us. You also are a wonderful photographer with a uniquely cynical point of view of the world. With your vast amount of photographic knowledge, you could teach us amateurs & professionals quite a lot. You also don't need to be angry, one look at your portfolio, and we want to learn from you, not be belittled by you. You also need to tone down the anger. (teaching him etiquette 101 which he flunked years ago) LOL. Just kidding! I have learned a lot from both you and Paul. I am a little more disserning in my critiques of images. I have learned to look more carefully, not only at others but at my own images and see the good and bad. You've both actually changed my mind on several issues. I thank you for that!

 

Hsksla- I don't believe for one minute (GOD)that anybody wanted it or planned it that way. I refuse to believe that. It's just not true. All one has to do is look into the eyes of a small child (in any nation anywhere in the world) and you can see this is not true. We all start out the same, without knowledge of the world and life, inherently good. It is learned life experiences that make us unique & different. It's the old discussion of Nature vs. Nurture theory. Nuture wins! It's a fact, it's been studied until the cows finally came home. Nurture wins hands down. So if your truly believe a higher power planned it that way, you need to investigate further. Knowledge IS the key to free thinking.

 

Life is funny and way too short. PN has been an absolutely wonderful environment for me. Many thanks to the people that run the site, they take negative hits and complaints all the time. I have learned a lot about photography on this site, more than I had ever thought possible. I also have met & talked with people, I most assuredly would never have met in my lifetime without the aid of PN. I have made friends with people that are extremely different than me. They have added to the depth of my life through their knowledge. People from all over the world. I find it truly amazing. Call my ideas goofy, call them crazy, call them naive, call them a little odd or weird, but never call them stupid, because they certainly are not.

 

Here's to dreams of peaceful tranquility and beautiful landscapes with happy children enjoying freedom. Maybe someday peace & real freedom will come. But in the meantime, here's to moody reminders of responsibilities to other human beings and funny statements in quirky poses & tongue in cheek humor, and the wild imaginations of friends just having fun! To music and art and photography. To family and friends. To meeting & learning new things from new friends. That's how I want my life to be. Guess what? It is! Here's to real peace and real freedom and truthful knowledge, to make these a reality we all need to learn to really listen to each other.

As I look at this, I see not just awkwardness activated by anonymity. Some photographers (me included) are the opposite of anonymus, via their work they show themselves very much detailed. That makes them vulnerable. Since the internet crowd is a huge one, PN artists are extra vulnerable. So... Being an artist you need, next to your talents, to be able to show yourself vulnerable and you must be able to handle the mean crowd. Gathering sweet people are boring and not much of an inspiration. Us people are not a flowerfield, thanks to Gods non exister.

Floris- You may have missed my point, or I yours, being SWEET does not mean that one can not be honest. It just means that you don't have to be rude to offer valuable critique.

The short curt answer ok? I rated your burnt out, bad background, 5 people looking in 5 different directions, all saying 5 different storys... that said nothing to tell a story, crooked river , bad colour pic a 4/3..and that was being generous....i called it exactly what it was, truthfully, because your 6 friends had all given it a 7/7 and commented it was the art pic of the century....hate to tell u its not...a pic of people doing laundry is not usually a masterpiece Rashid, we do it here too...

 

Rashid you make the above accusations in public in front of the pn community. Assault my reputation.. The images you deleted were the ones i said good things about AND overated i confess, because i felt so guilty when you all started whining and creating havoc....a still life apple...a sad fish eye shot of a tree...gave them 5/5 5/6..as your friends were in destroying my images with cut and paste comments and low rates.

 

Now Rachid i had about enough. Do you know every rating..every comment you make is logged by this system? Nothing can be hidden here. You edit a comment it builds a new file..it retains the old one. The mod can look up every word u ever said on here.. deleted or otherwise. Its only deleted to YOU not them. Every rating you ever give the mod can print out..deleted or not. I have nothing to hide.

 

You are standing here in your underwear sir...fabricating lies..and you look like a fool..

Floris- As I re-read your comment I am left confused.

 

"I see not just awkwardness activated by anonymity."

 

What does that mean. I don't think I'm anonymous, I have more images posted than you, I have rated more images than you, I have more actual ratings by other PN members than you. So?

What are you meaning? I am misunderstanding for sure.

 

 

"Some photographers (me included) are the opposite of anonymus, via their work they show themselves very much detailed."

 

What does this statement mean, everyone that posts on PN shows their works in detail, which makes them all not anonym(O)us. Are you implying you are one of the only posters that people look at? Certainly this is not what you meant?

 

And then to end with:

"Gathering sweet people are boring and not much of an inspiration."

 

Oh my, I am sure this is not what you meant, is it really? You are implying that "sweet" people are boring! I may be sweet and polite but believe me I am not boring, at least in my opinion. Maybe I'm not angry and nasty and blunt and outrageous and rude and ill mannered and ignorant. Yes, those things I am not. But boring is not one of my traits!

 

Actually if I remember correctly, I offered a critique on one of your images and suggested you loose the ear ring. I believe you took my suggestion. I was not rude or nasty, but merely sweetly offered my opinion.

 

Please explain better your statements so I may understand what you are saying, maybe it is your translation from Dutch to English that is making this confusing for me.

Calm down Paul! Your anger is showing! You're too good a photographer for anger! It's time for forgiveness and resolve.

 

 

Rashid- Did you really post angry comments on Paul's images in retaliation for Zafar's image that Paul commented rather rudely on? I did see his rude comments and called him on them. You need to confess. It's ok if you did. We've all done things in fits of anger. But now is the time to make ammends. Paul states he actually felt guilty, but obviously he's still angry at you, because you seem to deny doing this. You seem like a nice person, I personally know that Paul is a nice person. So what's the problem?

 

To make a mistake is human, to admit to it is devine!

 

Jayme's wisdom! LOL

It looks like you are too much preoccupied with being hurt, Yes you totally misunderstood my point. Maybe because English is not my motherlanguage... I'm not saying you are anonymous, did I? I am not saying you posted less pictures as I did... I Am saying you are vulnerable as an artist and and have to deal with that, your reaction illustrates you don't. Sweet people are sweet, gathering sweet people are boring, not inspiring. Friction inspires, where elements hit each other, structures will appear. Thats nature. I guess i'm again not clear. Stupid Dutchman I am.

We're here for different reasons and value different attributes in those we choose to associate with. I think it's fair to say that site policies have an effect on whose goals and even whose styles predominate.