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Which one would you choose


cameragary

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I know this is probably an old question , but i will ask anyway.with this virus stuff going on i am noticing some deals out there i want to explore. first is a Bronica etrs with waist level finder , the 75mm lens , 120 back and slide that looks in really nice condition.now i have not had it in my hands yet as just as i was going to check it out , the lock down came. it is still out there and i'm figuring it might be time to make a deal.

The second one is a Mamiya C330 that i glanced at a antique shop.it was in pristine condition.not a mark on it.but i did not even consider it 8 months ago.that camera i believe is still available also as it was still in the hands of the owner before lockdown. i do not know much about the mamiya's but from the read and posts i've seen on this sight. can you give me your thoughts on which one you would rather have.and thanks for your input. - gary

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Many years ago I had a pair of Bronica S2a with a prism. I used them very often because publishers preferred medium format than 35 mm slides. Now I still have a C330 also with a prism and I consider it to be much "heavier" than the Bronica. I never had an ETR but I think it will go a lot more unnoticed than the huge C330.

The ETR is much more versatile and easy to handle than the C330 especially when it comes to changing lenses.

I would not hesitate: Bronica ETR

460717441_008aAutorretratoMS80f5.61-60.jpg.a6ad927ba38132ec8a0d05da9e3948d6.jpg

Edited by luis triguez
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Bronica. A prism finder is a must-buy IMHO since WLFs on 645 cameras are a PITA. The ETR speed grip greatly improves the otherwise awkward ergonomics. 75mm is a good all-rounder, roughly equivalent to a 50mm lens on a 35mm SLR. As argued above, the Mamiya TLR is no lightweight.
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If you've been using rectangular formats like 35mm, or FX/DX, then framing and composing with 6x4.5 is no real change, other than size. However, going to 6x6 will require that you change your composition mindset. That change is partially offset by not having to rotate the camera between horizontal and vertical viewing and framing.

 

I used a Minolta Autocord as my first TLR, and schooled myself on square composition and printing. Suddenly, 10x10 enlargements were really eye-opening.

 

I have cameras in 6x4.5, 6x7, and 6x6; they've become valuable tools in my "arsenal".

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Having owned and used many cameras ( similar YashicaMats ) I still own the Bronica ERTs(i) models. It

really is a very versatile camera and has enough add ons to make it suitable for most any shooting or owner.

And the negative size is great , so I'm going to suggest the Bronica .

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Its a bit like choosing between oranges and pears: similar in some respects, very different in others. Plus, times have changed dramatically since these cameras were made: certain factors that made one preferable to the other back in the film era don't really apply anymore (i.e., the Mamiya TLRs were THE most popular entry level budget choice of medium format beginners for decades, because the bodies/lenses were significantly less expensive than any SLR system, but today used SLRs like Bronica are barely more expensive than the Mamiyas).

 

Today, the price difference is usually not large enough to make a difference, so its best to decide based on your own personal preferences and shooting style. I've used both the ETR and Mamiya C330, still own the Mamiya TLR system but now use Hasselblad SLR because I prefer 6x6 over the ETR 645 format. Each system has advantages the other lacks, so choose the one you find most appealing. Points to consider:

 

Have you ever shot medium format film before? If so, was it rectangular or square? If not, would you be more comfortable with the more familiar rectangle or are you intrigued by the challenge of shooting square?

 

In general with any cameras you've used: do you prefer auto exposure or do you typically make manual settings? Would you be comfortable using a handheld separate exposure meter? Do you depend on eye level prism viewing, or does waist level seem like an interesting alternative? Do you do a lot of closeup work? Do you do any work that requires quick operation (children, sports portraits, etc)? Emotionally, do you feel more "connected" to mechanical cameras or not care if the camera is electronic needing batteries? After answering these questions for yourself, you will more clearly know which camera type you would enjoy more, as follows:

 

The Mamiya TLRs are completely manual mechanical cameras: no batteries, no internal metering. Like most 6x6 format cameras, they are primarily meant to be used with the waist level finder (more accurately chest level: you flip up a magnifier to focus, looking down onto the screen). After focusing, you can frame/compose quickly with the camera hanging near your waist. However, the view is reversed from left to right, which can be confusing at first. Prism finder is available (as pictured above by luis triguez), but it makes the Mamiya incredibly large and clumsy to operate (requiring a large side grip to be practical at all).

 

Format is 6x6 square: back in the day, people routinely cropped 645 landscape or portrait from this when printing, but nowadays most photographers don't use a 6x6 square camera unless they fully prefer to shoot the square. Exposure requires a separate handheld meter or phone app, whose recommendations you transfer to the shutter/aperture rings on the lens (i.e., slow operation). The built-in bellows allows near-macro-focusing with the normal and wide lenses, but as you get closer than a meter you need to increase exposure by the factor indicated in the viewfinder. This closeup ability is fantastic, but being a TLR involves parallax: the moving exposure compensation bar in the viewfinder also indicates the parallax (when you get very close the viewfinder becomes wildly inaccurate). You compensate for this by raising the camera until the parallax bar is at the top of your composition (either handheld or via tripod column).

 

Mamiya TLR was the go-to system for portrait studios and many wedding pros, because TLR viewing allows you to see the subject even during the flash firing (no viewfinder blackout). Lack of flipping mirror means near-vibrationless shooting. The mechanical shuttered lenses are easily serviced at any repair shop, ditto the bodies (which rarely break down aside from once-in-a-lifetime film advance drift). Most lenses are very affordable, the exceptional 180mm Super being one of the finest ever made for 6x6. Normal lenses are the usual speed (80mm 2.8, 65mm and 105mm f/3.5), but all the others are slow with max opening of f/4.5 (55mm, 135mm, 180mm). Lenses are tedious and clumsy to interchange: no quick bayonet system.

 

Think of the Mamiya as basically a larger, heavier, clumsier Rolleiflex with interchangeable lenses and you'll get the gist of it. Long story short: the Mamiya TLR is the more "zen" choice of the two: the one to choose if you pine for a real throwback vintage shooting experience. A beloved clunker, the Jeep of medium format cameras.

 

The Bronica could not be a greater contrast: its basically a scaled-up AE 35mm SLR. If you want the same shooting experience as a Nikon F3 in medium format, the ETR is the one to pick for sure. It was designed to be used with a quick-winding coupled side grip and AE prism for aperture-priority TTL metering. This of course requires a battery and electronics. Format is the familiar rectangle, so you really do need a prism (the WLF isn't practical unless you strictly shoot in landscape horizontal mode). With eyelevel viewing/winding and integrated AE, the ETR is the fastest responding medium format camera short of a motorized AF Pentax. Being an SLR, there is zero parallax when shooting close, but shooting close requires carrying/adding/removing extension tubes (which the AE prism automatically compensates for). One final advantage is interchangeable film backs: you can switch film types midroll, or carry several pre-loaded backs for faster re-load (the Mamiya TLR cannot offer this).

 

The film backs have a tortured film path that can result in undesirable film plane curl if left sitting days or weeks between shots (the long flat straight Mamiya film path is better for occasional shooters). Used ETR backs often have tricky light seal and frame spacing problems that can resist DIY repair: it helps to know a local camera tech who can overhaul these for you after purchase (once serviced, they should stay good for years).

 

The electronics in the Bronica bodies and lenses are a binary factor: on one hand, they tend to be much more reliable than mechanically-controlled cameras and seldom break down, OTOH if/when they do break or wear out repairs are usually not possible or cost effective (you just replace the lens or body with another). This was easy and cheap until recently, when renewed interest in shooting medium format film led to a buying frenzy. Availability and pricing of spare bodies-lenses-backs has become more competitive and less simple/cheap, so if you opt for the Bronica be sure to test it thoroughly within your return/refund period.

 

Both the Bronica ETR and Mamiya TLR are capable of great results: choose the one whose personality best matches yours.

Edited by orsetto
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sorry for the long delay,i believe i will explore the bronica over the mamiya.i do have a s2a now and i know they are not cross compatible with equipment i do hold a fondness for the bronica.i have done some work on her and i keep reading that it is a bomb waiting to explode.i know of only one person capable of working on them and have reached out to him about a cla on the s2a.he seems ok with it.

it may all be a dream also, as i am looking to make a deal with this individual.i have let it sit for a while now and for all i know he may have sold it already.

i do appreciate all your responses on this and one last thing , anything in particular i should be on the look out for.

thanks -- gary

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The Mamiya TLRs are big, heavy, clunky and weird cameras. I love 'em. You can get a mirror finder that's lighter than a solid prism finder. Lenses can be a problem because they seem to be made out of fungus candy. Shutters on early ones can be a service problem. Many have been services and put together poorly. Bellows are usually good, unless they're not. Still, when everything is right, they deliver fantastic results. IMO, they're not the camera for people not mechanically inclined, but a joy if you are. I've never used a Bronica, so can't comment.
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C 330 & 33 (still) owner here. How much fun is focusing & composing through dark filters on SLRs?

If you are of (under?)-average height a 645 with prism must be nice to shoot. If you are taller 6x6 with chimney finder is more rewarding. (I own but barely ever use a Mamiya prism.)

No clue about the Bronica system.

Agreed upon "6x6 is a film wasting work around for more desirable (but probably way too heavy) 645 rotating backs".

I'd block arguments about macro capability of SLRs with: I wouldn't even shoot 35mm /FF if I had a chance to get away with something smaller in that field. But yes, framing the C330 with paralax indicator for tight head shots is nasty.

Grab something you like, it 'll most likely take pictures.

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anything in particular i should be on the look out for.

 

Re the Bronica ETR? Film back issues, film back issues, and oh yeah... film back issues. :rolleyes:

 

Seriously.

 

While the leaf shutter Bronicas are much more reliable and user friendly in most respects, Zenza really dropped the ball on film back construction when they migrated away from the S2 system. You can run the S2 film back over with a Chevy Tahoe, slap it back on the camera, no problemo. The backs for the ETR, SQ and GS are something else again: I hesitate to say flimsy, because thats a bit extreme, but they're a PITA. Several little hidden foam seals that go bad, inexplicable light leaks develop, and a spacing mech that doesn't like hard sloppy use.

 

Most everything ETR is rock reliable compared to the S2, but the backs are an Achilles Heel that you need to check thoroughly and pay to have serviced if necessary. It seems counter-intuitive, but despite being far less expensive than Hasselblad in its day Bronica did not get many amateur enthusiast takers for the ETR when it was sold new. Not a lot of barely-used ETR/SQ pre-owned by dilettante lawyers and dentists around today: these were tools used by studio and wedding pros who rode them hard, hung them up wet and replaced rather than service them. The bodies and lenses could withstand this treatment better than the backs: there are a LOT of problematic ETR/SQ backs thirty years on. Assume you will need to have the back serviced, set aside $100 rainy day fund for that, and if you run into trouble you won't be as disappointed. Once repaired, a back should be durable under normal non-pro use (pros, even worse their assistants, used to really bang on these things).

 

One last thought: an ETR is not remotely like your S2. For all its quirks and repairability issues, the S2 was a labor of love by the company founder, and its shows in the design novelty and build. Its an eccentric camera system with a distinct personality and loads of charm. The ETR, not so much: that was a calculated business decision made after studying Hasselblad and Mamiya for a weak market segment Bronica could target effectively. The ETR is the child of a shotgun marriage between the Mamiya M645 and a Hasselblad 500cm: the format, electronics, convenience and price point of the Mamiya with the leaf shutters of the Hasselblad. No more, no less: the ETR is a very efficient flexible reliable tool, but it isn't inspiring to pick up and use: it has no real personality. If thats what floats your boat, you'll love the ETR, if not, better to spend the money getting your S2 fully overhauled (assuming you can find a tech with the ability).

Edited by orsetto
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Bronica. If you do, look into getting a non-metered

Re the Bronica ETR? Film back issues, film back issues, and oh yeah... film back issues. :rolleyes:

 

Seriously.

 

While the leaf shutter Bronicas are much more reliable and user friendly in most respects, Zenza really dropped the ball on film back construction when they migrated away from the S2 system. You can run the S2 film back over with a Chevy Tahoe, slap it back on the camera, no problemo. The backs for the ETR, SQ and GS are something else again: I hesitate to say flimsy, because thats a bit extreme, but they're a PITA. Several little hidden foam seals that go bad, inexplicable light leaks develop, and a spacing mech that doesn't like hard sloppy use.

 

Most everything ETR is rock reliable compared to the S2, but the backs are an Achilles Heel that you need to check thoroughly and pay to have serviced if necessary. It seems counter-intuitive, but despite being far less expensive than Hasselblad in its day Bronica did not get many amateur enthusiast takers for the ETR when it was sold new. Not a lot of barely-used ETR/SQ pre-owned by dilettante lawyers and dentists around today: these were tools used by studio and wedding pros who rode them hard, hung them up wet and replaced rather than service them. The bodies and lenses could withstand this treatment better than the backs: there are a LOT of problematic ETR/SQ backs thirty years on. Assume you will need to have the back serviced, set aside $100 rainy day fund for that, and if you run into trouble you won't be as disappointed. Once repaired, a back should be durable under normal non-pro use (pros, even worse their assistants, used to really bang on these things).

 

One last thought: an ETR is not remotely like your S2. For all its quirks and repairability issues, the S2 was a labor of love by the company founder, and its shows in the design novelty and build. Its an eccentric camera system with a distinct personality and loads of charm. The ETR, not so much: that was a calculated business decision made after studying Hasselblad and Mamiya for a weak market segment Bronica could target effectively. The ETR is the child of a shotgun marriage between the Mamiya M645 and a Hasselblad 500cm: the format, electronics, convenience and price point of the Mamiya with the leaf shutters of the Hasselblad. No more, no less: the ETR is a very efficient flexible reliable tool, but it isn't inspiring to pick up and use: it has no real personality. If thats what floats your boat, you'll love the ETR, if not, better to spend the money getting your S2 fully overhauled (assuming you can find a tech with the ability).

 

Care to reveal the hiding places of those pesky, short-lived seals? Most likely to fail on Bronica ETR/SQ backs are the foam strips at the hinge of the clamshell that surrounds the film insert--an easy DIY fix. Mechanically-iffy stuff I avoid or return if it's DOA. Agree that totally-smoked MF gear that led a hard working life is easy to find, though there were well-heeled hobbyists or wannabe wedding/portrait shooters who bought kits that saw only light use--I know because I've bought several. Worked-to-death equipment isn't necessarily defect-ridden--it's just worn-out! Anyone hot for MF really needs to let available repair resources guide their purchase decisions. Sorry but Bronica S series gear is probably best repurposed as doorstops or paper weights--maybe also murder weapon in the case of the bodies for blunt force trauma.

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Re the Bronica ETR? Film back issues, film back issues, and oh yeah... film back issues. :rolleyes:

 

Seriously.

 

While the leaf shutter Bronicas are much more reliable and user friendly in most respects, Zenza really dropped the ball on film back construction when they migrated away from the S2 system. You can run the S2 film back over with a Chevy Tahoe, slap it back on the camera, no problemo. The backs for the ETR, SQ and GS are something else again: I hesitate to say flimsy, because thats a bit extreme, but they're a PITA. Several little hidden foam seals that go bad, inexplicable light leaks develop, and a spacing mech that doesn't like hard sloppy use.

 

Most everything ETR is rock reliable compared to the S2, but the backs are an Achilles Heel that you need to check thoroughly and pay to have serviced if necessary. It seems counter-intuitive, but despite being far less expensive than Hasselblad in its day Bronica did not get many amateur enthusiast takers for the ETR when it was sold new. Not a lot of barely-used ETR/SQ pre-owned by dilettante lawyers and dentists around today: these were tools used by studio and wedding pros who rode them hard, hung them up wet and replaced rather than service them. The bodies and lenses could withstand this treatment better than the backs: there are a LOT of problematic ETR/SQ backs thirty years on. Assume you will need to have the back serviced, set aside $100 rainy day fund for that, and if you run into trouble you won't be as disappointed. Once repaired, a back should be durable under normal non-pro use (pros, even worse their assistants, used to really bang on these things).

 

One last thought: an ETR is not remotely like your S2. For all its quirks and repairability issues, the S2 was a labor of love by the company founder, and its shows in the design novelty and build. Its an eccentric camera system with a distinct personality and loads of charm. The ETR, not so much: that was a calculated business decision made after studying Hasselblad and Mamiya for a weak market segment Bronica could target effectively. The ETR is the child of a shotgun marriage between the Mamiya M645 and a Hasselblad 500cm: the format, electronics, convenience and price point of the Mamiya with the leaf shutters of the Hasselblad. No more, no less: the ETR is a very efficient flexible reliable tool, but it isn't inspiring to pick up and use: it has no real personality. If thats what floats your boat, you'll love the ETR, if not, better to spend the money getting your S2 fully overhauled (assuming you can find a tech with the ability).

I am really not looking to replace the s2a ,especially after what i have been through changing foams for screen and mirror.i spent 2 days looking for one of the small screws that hold the mirro frame on after it went BOING .finally found it but it must have been very funny to my wife as she watched me on my hands and knees with a flashlight looking for that glint of reflection.but i found it.you were the one that turned me on to the instructions and knowledge of doing such a task.you sent me the copy of sam sherman's notes on doing the foams.turned out great especially using rick olsen's screen.

now i am starting to wonder about this etrs.are the seals on the backs easy enough to change out?are they available or do you have to make them up like the s2a foams for the screens.

i must say that s2a is a labor of love to own and use.it is a whole new experience to use. when i brought it into work to show a friend, whoever saw it was amazed of the size of it.they had no idea it was even a camera. it is a definite conversation piece . thanks for all the info.i just may pull the trigger on it.

gary

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Sorry but Bronica S series gear is probably best repurposed as doorstops or paper weights--maybe also murder weapon in the case of the bodies for blunt force trauma.

 

:D Funny because its true: I'm surprised this idea was never used in a Columbo episode during the S2 heyday. Although I think the ETR was actually featured in the Faye Dunaway-John Carpenter "photography is murder" opus "Eyes Of Laura Mars".

 

The ETR and SQ backs were revised several times over: some prove less troublesome, others are found with multiple bits of foam that are a pain to track down, remove and replace, and some develop leaks that aren't cured by simple foam replacement. This is not inordinately worse than similar back problems found with Hasselblad, Mamiya RB/RZ, etc, but OTOH its the only thing ETR owners repeatedly complain about over the years, and they've been pretty consistent and vocal about the backs being rather more of a pain to find in good condition than other brands.

 

If you run a search for the issue, drill down, and summarize multiple posts, I think the reason Bronica owners make more noise about their ETR/SQ backs can be traced to some versions needing more skill and patience to DIY repair than Hasselblad or even some Mamiya backs. IIRC, the most recent poster noted the foams in their Bronica backs were of various thicknesses and sizes that had to be very carefully fitted and positioned by trial and error before they finally cured their leaks. By comparison, a Hasselblad back has just one obvious seal that can be replaced with a chewing gum wrapper if necessary (but heaven help you if it has mechanical wear- $$$). Mamiya has more seals than Hasselblad but they're not as thickness/width/placement sensitive as some versions of Bronica backs. The S2 backs seem impervious to seal wear.

 

It would perhaps be better to turn the question around and look at it from the other end. OP cameragary asked if there were any potential issues one needs to be particularly aware of when shopping for an ETR (a natural enough concern if you've ever owned the very peculiar S2). Yes, the film magazines can be problematic, a bit more so maybe than with some other cameras: you should definitely ask about back performance before purchase, and run a test roll thru it immediately. BUT: thats about it as far as common breakdowns. The ETR bodies, lenses and finders have stood the test of time and abuse, rarely giving any unexpected trouble aside from the mundane finder/lens contact and battery chamber cleaning requirements you get with any other electronic camera.

 

The ETR and SQ have been in higher demand the last couple years: prices have doubled over what they were in 2015. Medium format shooters enjoy them now for the same reasons pros liked them in the old days: they're reliable, have more convenience features than Hasselblad or Mamiya, lenses are excellent and affordable, repairs are rarely needed, and the system handles well. There are no dealbreaker "gotchas" lurking in the ETR or SQ like you see in the older S2, EC or EC/TL. Make sure to buy from a reputable seller like KEH, and you should be fine. The backs would only be be a serious concern if (as often happens) Japanese dealers have a monopoly on availability the month you're ready to buy. Those dealers tend to be very reputable and honest, but mistakes happen and it can be prohibitively expensive to return ship a medium format camera to Japan (it would probably make more $ sense to have the back overhauled locally than to return it).

Edited by orsetto
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I had a TLR, a Rolleiflex, which I used extensively for 40 years. Somewhat disappointed with 12 MP DSLRs, I turned to medium format for the next 15. I chose an Hasselblad because it is a single lens reflex, and I had wanted one from the first ad I saw in Scientific American. I think the Bronica is a better choice compared to a Mamiya 330 for the same reason - versatility. If your photographic interests range from 3 feet to infinity, either camera will work. For closeups and moon landings, give me an SLR.
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I know you didn't mention it but an SQa or SQAi Bronica would be a little more expensive but would put you into square format for not a lot of money over the ETR. PS lenses were their best. The electronically controlled shutters are highly reliable too. The electronic Seiko shutters take the worry out of a shutter in every lens whereas the Mamiya has a reliable but much more mechanical shutter mechanism in each lens set.
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I gave up on the ETR after I took my kit out for a day of shooting and had a half dozen rolls ruined by light leaks. There weren't the pesky little "mouse bite" light leaks you get at Hassy edges either, but full blown dark strips horizontal across the frame.

 

The last time I talked to Jon Goodman, he wasn't even making seal kits for the ETR backs. The pesky little stepped seal is problematic.

 

SQ backs, which I used extensively, would still have rotten foam but I found them a lot less daunting to reseal.

 

I'm afraid of the ETR, having been bitten once pretty badly on what was otherwise a nice system. My SQ-A didn't miss a beat-the back I bought from KEH had good light seals when I got it, while the others I picked up usually needed some attention.

 

None the less, after you've spend an hour with naptha scraping old gooey foam out of a Japanese camera and then licking, positioning, and sticking replacement foam you really appreciate the same job on a Hasselblad. Take the screws out, life the plate off, scoop out the old seals in one piece, and stick the new ones in. Getting the foam tucked into the mylar just right the first time takes a bit of practice, but once you've "got it" it's easy.

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I have never seen the point or attraction of the TLR design, and that goes in spades for the bloated weight-training equipment that is a Mamiya Cxx0 camera.

 

It was part of my college course in photography to use one, since we were supposed to familiarise ourselves with a variety of camera types. Worst day of the entire course!

 

At least there was a hefty tripod on hand to take some of the strain... and a paramender to rectify the viewfinder displacement. But really; what goes through the mind of a designer that recognises a fundamental flaw, and then produces an even more cumbersome device to overcome what should never have existed in the first place? A lever to move the viewfinder frame, or to squint the mirror down - that would at least have been an elegant and compact solution. A paramender? Lunacy!

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I have never seen the point or attraction of the TLR design, and that goes in spades for the bloated weight-training equipment that is a Mamiya Cxx0 camera.

 

It was part of my college course in photography to use one, since we were supposed to familiarise ourselves with a variety of camera types. Worst day of the entire course!

 

At least there was a hefty tripod on hand to take some of the strain... and a paramender to rectify the viewfinder displacement. But really; what goes through the mind of a designer that recognises a fundamental flaw, and then produces an even more cumbersome device to overcome what should never have existed in the first place? A lever to move the viewfinder frame, or to squint the mirror down - that would at least have been an elegant and compact solution. A paramender? Lunacy!

I read your responses to various threads about all sorts of topics and I do hold your responses in high regard.

So with that said ,would you look at a bronica etrs or elsewhere. Now I will say that money is an issue.like anyone I am looking for a deal of sorts.what do you say sir,

Thanks - gary

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I have never seen the point or attraction of the TLR design, and that goes in spades for the bloated weight-training equipment that is a Mamiya Cxx0 camera.

 

It was part of my college course in photography to use one, since we were supposed to familiarise ourselves with a variety of camera types. Worst day of the entire course!

 

At least there was a hefty tripod on hand to take some of the strain... and a paramender to rectify the viewfinder displacement. But really; what goes through the mind of a designer that recognises a fundamental flaw, and then produces an even more cumbersome device to overcome what should never have existed in the first place? A lever to move the viewfinder frame, or to squint the mirror down - that would at least have been an elegant and compact solution. A paramender? Lunacy!

 

A lot of truth here. The first TLRs were tiny in comparison to what Mamiyas evolved into. A "coffee can" Ikoflex is about HALF the height of a C33 and about 1/3 the weight. Yes, others will be quick to point out the feature benefits of the C3, 33, 330 and they will be correct, though at-a-cost. You can haul so much more dirt in a dump truck than you can in the trunk of your Mustang, so "to each his own". From an ergonomic, features, and "system" perspective, the 6x6 SLR was the better direction for the square format IMO.

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