Which old folder to get vs. a "modern" rangefinder

Hello folks! I've been doing a bit of reading and saw some threads about the old

Voightlanders and Agfas. These seem to be pretty reasonably priced and are said to have

good quality depending on the lens you get. I don't really know too much about the old

folders, but have had a Mamiya 7 with 65 & 150mm lenses, a Fuji GA645zi and have

borrowed my brother in law's Plaubel Makina 67. I really liked the quality and compact

nature of the Plaubel but am somewhat put off by the price. The Mamiya was great but I

needed the money and sold the camera. Anyways, I was wondering how these old folders

compare quality wise with the cameras that I've tried and whether or not I should stick

with something like a Mamiya 6 (since it's more modern, has multiple lens options, built in

meter and somewhat compact). I should mention that I'll probably be shooting color

transparencies (most likely Velvia) and that I'll be using it mostly for landscape and travel.

 

Which of the old folders are best in terms of quality and sharpness. My budget for one is

a few hundred dollars tops. I've heard that the Bessa II with APO Lanthar is great but very

expensive. Any others that I should keep an eye out for? How much should I expect to

pay? I'm open to 6x6, 6x7 and 6x9 formats. Thanks for your input and knowledge!

<p>It's <em>Voigtländer</em>, <em>Voigtlaender</em>, or (if you

must) <em>Voigtlander</em>. No <em>h</em>. (That should make it

easier to google for.)</p><p>I don't know the answer to your question,

but at least some versions of the (old, folding, fixed-lens) Mamiya Six are

said to be good (though horrible to get fixed).</p><p>You seem short of

money; will you be able to afford the film, processing, etc.?</p>

Sorry for the misspelling on Voigtlander. I am not short of money for a camera, but don't

want to spend an arm and a leg on an older folder if I can get a newer Mamiya 6 or 7 with

excellent multicoated optics for the same price. I simply want an inexpensive, compact

camera to take with me on trips that doesn't cost $1000 or more. Since the older folders

are relatively cheap but still perform great, this seems the way to go. Being able to afford

processing and film is a non issue. I am not a "collector", just a user who wants good

quality.

<p>No apology needed for the spelling, Andrew; whereas on rereading

your first message I see you're used to using 120 and therefore will be

well aware of film costs, so my "helpful" comment about that was pretty

asinine. Meanwhile: <a

href="http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/mamiya6f.html">here's the (folding)

Mamiya

Six</a>, and the <a

href="http://cameras.alfredklomp.com/iskra2/index.htm">Iskra 2</a>

sounds good, though it's another camera I've never used myself.</p>

Andrew, an Agfa Isolette III with a 75mm f3.5 Solinar lens + uncoupled rangefinder would come very close to what you are looking for. The lens is excellent, the camera is well built and it is small enough for me to carry in the back pocket of my trousers. I have often shot Velvia (with tripod, stopped down) and Provia with good results. Camera + CLA came to under 200 USD. I'm not comparing it to a Mamiya 6/7, but it is certainly a very capable, compact little camera.

<a href='http://www.certo6.com'>www.certo6.com</a> is a good reference site of a reliable seller & refurbisher of folders; I purchased a Welta Weltur from him a while back.

I agree with the renowned Certo 6 (Jurgen Kreckel). The best of the folders is the Agfa Super Isolette. I don't know what they are currently auctioning at but a year or two ago they stood at about $320 - $350. They really are built to a totally different standard from all the other folders I have owned or come across. The lens is a fixed solinar, by which I mean that it is not front cell focussing. The whole of the lens moves so the relationship between the elements remains the same. This gives superbly sharp results from a highly robust and sophisticated camera. I can't tell the difference in terms of definition between my Super Isolette, my Kodak Medalist and my Kowa Super 66. At 8 x 8 enlargements they are indistinguishable.

Andrew, I got bit by the folder bug several years ago and now have a collection of over

50. They are a very hit and miss affair. For 6x6, the one I enjoyed the most that performed

the best by far was the Mamiya Six Automatic, with a superb Zukio lens (bokeh to die for).

It's one of a handful of folders that doesn't use cell focussing. The "Automatic" version

also had automatic shutter cocking. They are a bit hard to find and genereally fetch

around $450. I'm pretty sure later versions of the pre-automatic used the same optic and

can be purchased for under $200. I have produced some truly marvelous results with this

camera. I still have it, but when I shoot 6x6 nowadays it's the later Mamiya 6. A truly

GREAT camera that I highly recommend if it's in your budget. For 6x9 I had reasonable

results from an Agfa Record with a Solinar, and a Bessa II with a Color Skopar. However

these are both cell focussing... the Mamiya Six Auto cropped to the same aspect ration will

yield superior prints. Utimately, for 6x9 I currently use a Horseman VH. Not as small... but

stunningly competent and more compact than you might imagine. My VH (no rangefinder

like the VHR) along with four lenses (58XL-75 Horseman-100 Symmar-270T Nikon), two

6x9 Horseman RFB's plus 10 rolls of film fits in a bag smaller than my D100 outfit with

17-35 & 70-200 f2.8 lenses. The VHR version is about 1 1/2 inches taller. You might want

to investigate the Horrseman cameras... I got my VH for $650 on eBay and I've seen

numerous VHR's sell for under $1000 complete with lens. If you can live without a rotating

back, the previous generation Horseman 980/985 is even more of a bargain. The attached

phot was taken with the Mamiya 6 Auto on Velvia 100F, 1/60 @ f5.6

Agfa also made the Super Isolette as a Super Regent for Ansco and they appear on Ebay from time to time. You can always have the film processed with no prints and use a scanner.

The key issues with folders vs. a modern MF rangefinder are optics, winding, viewfinder/rangefinder, and rigidity. If you think you are going to be able to work as fast with a classic folder as a modern M6/M7, you are kidding yourself. In case anyone gets bent out of shape, I'll state right up front that I really like folding cameras. I just want Andrew to get a subjective opinion.

 

Optics - Most classic rangefinders use either triplet or Zeiss Tessar design lenses. The former have to be stopped down further than the latter to get the sharpness up in the corners. Neither hold a candle to Gauss and Planar type designs for corner sharpness wide open. I'm not saying any of this is bad (I like these lenses) but if you shoot a lot of wide open, available light photography it may be important to you. Also alluded to above: most folders use front cell focusing which means the lenses will get even softer as they are close focused. Classic optics will be uncoated or single coated. A huge difference that I cannot believe we have touched on: folders have fixed normal lenses.

 

Winding - very few folders have automatic winding with a frame counter. Most rely on you positioning the film with a red window. This is a detriment if you need to shoot quickly. The types that do have frame counters are generally the top of the line models. Of those that do, you will have a slower knob wind.

 

Viewfinder/rangefinder - Is there any classic folder with a parallax corrected, brightline finder? Most don't have rangefinders, some of them do and they are uncoupled to the focus. Some have separate rangefinder and viewfinder windows. The top models have combined viewfinder and coupled rangefinder.

 

Rigidity - the biggest weakness of the folding camera design. When the lens unfolds, it must consistently lock down at the correct position and remain perfectly parallel with the film plane. Poor designs abound and when you factor in mechanical damage there are very few that are consistently within specification.

 

Shutters - Quality varies but the top models come with 1/500 speed, flash synched Compur shutters.

 

Other - film flatness is a problem with some designs, especially in the 6x9 format cameras. Bellows can develop light leaks. Some makes such as the Agfa folders have notoriously leaky bellows. No metering of course except in a few cases (Super Ikonta with uncoupled, non-TTL Selenium meter)

 

My summary - folders are great, compact cameras that can provide absolute top-notch results on film. They do so at the expense of many of the "modern conveniences" which have come to be known as standard since the Leica M3 rangefinder. From a historical perspective, remember that medium format folding cameras have never really been a professional camera. The Rolleiflex TLR was king during much of the folder's reign. (ever consider a Rolleiflex?)

 

Good luck with your decision! My suggestion is to checkout a (cheap!) Moskva 5 or Iskra 2 camera and see if you like folders enough to consider moving up to an expensive German camera. These Russian cameras are clones of the Super Ikonta 6x9 and Super Isolette 6x6 respectively with Tessar type lenses. A good one will produce equal results of any top of the line German folder.

Kreckel gets recommendations from here but doesn't seem to hang around to share a wealth of knowledge from his passion. I've received dirty and damaged cameras from him. There are other dealers.

Mike brings up a lot of good points. Also, unless you're mechanically inclined and can bring an old camera back into alignment and adjustment, folders are a roll of the dice. Many are capable of excellent performance, but far fewer actually deliver it due to decades of wear and tear. If you can't do your own CLAs, buy from somebody that knows how to service these things, and will give you a guarantee.

For travel, I shoot a Fuji GA645zi. Used to have a GS645 folder until some low life bottomfeeder stole it at the Vancouver airport. I've seen some good prices on the Fuji's at some of the internet sites of some camera dealers. Maybe you could look at these instead.

I have a Linhof Super Technica, (you can't get more complicated than this) and a Super Ikonta when I think I need more pain in my life. They are usable but the Zen disappears real fast when one of the million things doesn't click right. Since I bought the Fuji, I haven't shot any film in the others.

 

Stan Mark

I have 4 Voigtländer cameras (Bessa II/Heliar, Perkeo II/Skopar, Vitessa-L/Ultron, Superb/Heliar) and a few LF lenses from the same firm, but on eBay, I just always search for "Voig*" in the Cameras & Photo section, because you can never count on sellers to spell it right, and you might find some mispelled bargains that way.

 

If I were to keep just one of my Voigtländer folders, it would probably be the Perkeo II 6x6 with the Color-Skopar, which I use with an uncoupled shoe-mount rangefinder. It's more compact than even the 35mm Vitessa-L, and unlike the Bessa II, it has an auto-stop film advance, so it's very quick to use. The coupled rangefinder of the Bessa II is obviously better than an uncoupled rangefinder, but once you've got the routine of the uncoupled rangefinder down, it's not as awkward as one might think. I also find that I can hold the Perkeo II (shutter release on the top of the camera body on the right) steadier than the Bessa II (shutter release pops up from the camera door on the left) in the horizontal position (but I'm just as steady with the Bessa II in the vertical position). The Color-Heliar is sharper corner-to-corner than the Color-Skopar, but the difference only matters if you use a tripod, and I see a folder as mainly a handheld camera (though sometimes I do use them on a tripod). If I need a tripod, I might as well shoot 4x5" or larger.

Wow! Thanks for the replies. Addressing some of the earlier replies...

 

I actually had a Fuji GA645zi which I used quite frequently as my main travel camera. I

really did like it but felt that it got almost "too contrasty" with the Velvia and Provia that I

was using at the time, but I guess almost any lens will block up the shadows when it's

midday sun! Maybe it's another option to go back to although I really wanted a format

larger than 6x4.5.

 

Regarding the Horseman VH view cameras... I have an use an Ebony 23S with 65mm,

105mm and 200mm Nikkor lenses and Horseman RFB and angle viewer. This is my main

landscape rig, but too big and heavy for most of my backpacking excursions. My wife also

gets irritated with me when I spend 30-60 minutes waiting for one shot and the setup

time when we travel. Needless to say, a rangefinder for quick setup and travelling sounds

like it would be somewhat more acceptable to her.

 

From my web research it seems like the Voigtlander Bessa II for 6x9 with color Skopar (or

color Heliar if I can find one) is a good option. For 6x6 I'm leaning towards the Zeiss

Super Ikonta IV (534/16) or maybe the Voigtlander Perkeo or Agfa Super Isolette. Can

anyone tell me what I can expect to pay for a good sample of the above cameras? I'm very

new to purchasing an old folder so I don't have a really good frame of reference in regards

to pricing them. Also, are there any others that you might recommend? It seems that a

coupled rangefinder is an important feature to me. Thanks for the wealth of great

information! Keep it comin'!

Hi,

 

I have an Iskra I (amongst others), and love the camera. Great lens, big bright viewfinder and not too big or heavy. Quite well built too, and nice and rigid. Probably the best value MF folder out there with regards to picture quality, if you get a good one. So far I have shot mainly Velvia, and the shutter seems bang on - the first roll I got back was unforgettable :-)

 

Their weak point is the film advance (some have been converted to red window), and the 33mm filter size (rocking horse poo is easier to find than 33mm screw in filters!). The Iskra II adds a non-coupled meter, but just about all of them seem to have dead or dodgy meters. Try ebay or www.fedka.com if you don't fancy the odds at the auction.

 

Another Russian with a good lens is the Moskva 5. Quality on these is more variable, but they are a lot more common, and hence a lot cheaper. They are not as nice to use, having separate viewfinder and rangefinder windows. If you are left-handed, you'll like it. You can try the fedka site again, or a seller "cupog" often has Moskvas and seems to have a good reputation. I got mine for $30.

 

The other options would be the Ikontas - maybe an Ikonta IV with or without a meter. You'll pay a lot more for one of these than you would the Iskra.

 

The Bessas seem to evoke mixed reactions. Some people think they're great, while others complain about the lack of rigidity. That, and they are popular with collectors and hence way more expensive.

 

If I was after something more modern, I'd probably get the Mamiya 6, but I really enjoy using the old (older than me) cameras.

 

Go the Russian route and you can buy several cameras :-) Good luck, let us know which way you go.

 

Paul

<p>Medium format folders are great for collectors and tourists, like myself who can't shake off the concept of a pocketable medium format camera.</p>

 

<p>Here is a link to my web page which covers most of what you need to know regrarding Agfa 6x6 folders, to include the already mentioned Agfa Super Isolette and Ansco Super Speedex.</p>

 

<p><a href="http://www.ph.utexas.edu/~yue/misc/AnscAgfa.html" target="_blank" class="slink">http://www.ph.utexas.edu/~yue/misc/AnscAgfa.html</a></p>

 

<p>So far as I know, none of the vintage 6x9 folders offer a film advance which will automatically stop at the next frame. I have three of these gems and all needed to be service prior to shooting. With 6x9 I prefer using an auxilliary, therefore an uncoupled, range finder. You only have eight exposures, so you might as well slow down.</p>

 

<p>With regards to a film winder which stops automatically at the next frame and a coupled range-finder, they make shooting soooooooo much easier.</p>

 

<p>The Agfa Super Isolette and Zeiss-Ikon Super Ikonta IV models are within your stated budget. The Iskra and Iskra 2 are Super Isolette copies that offer the same type of coupled rangefinder with unit focusing as the Agfa at a third of the price.

 

<p>Filters and lens hoods: Be advised that when it comes to finding filters or lens hoods for the Iskra, it uses a nearly impossible to locate/obtain 33mm threaded filter mount. The Super Isolette on the other hand uses the same 29.5mm threaded filters as a Kodak Retina for which one may even find polarizers for. The Super Ikonta IV uses either a 32mm push on filter or a very unique Zeiss Ikon 35mm thread filter, which threads to the outer part of the lens barrel.</p>

 

<p>Quality wise: The more modern Mamiya 6 is surely going to be optically superior at all apertures and will allow for greater versatility via interchangeable lenses. It also comes with a modern coupled light meter, which isn't going to happen with a folder. Filter and lens hoods are a piece of cake to locate, as well.</p>

That question goes along the same lines as what kind of car should I buy? You will get as many answers as makes and models. I have found lens quality lacking in even the high end models and be very surprised by what should of been a "sleeper" lens. The quality at the factory may of been off on that day. Last month I realined a Zeiss 533/16 that would not focus out to infinity it left the factory that way (explains why it was almost mint). I had to drill the lens ring to reset it. No matter which one you buy plan on buying a couple more as the folders are addictive. Start with a 6x6 that has been brought back to life by someone that will stand by their work a few names have been suggested above (and myself). A mid range for a good 6x6 is around $125 -$225 that has been restored. Take a look at a few that I have used along with pictures http://davidrichert.com/pictures_taken_with.htm. -- Dave at Davidrichert.com

If you want something more modern, light meter, multicoated lens and stuff, you might get lucky with a fuji GS645, the folding model. I've seen an e-bay auction ending with a lucky sub-400$ winner bid.

 

If you want to go cheaper (sub-200$), try the Iskra (model 1 or 2). I think www.fedka.com has some; i am thinking myself of getting one, since i only hear superior oppinions about it. It's 6x6. Moskva-5 is also ok, if you want 6x9, is much cheaper than anything else in this category (Super isolettes, super ikontas are a bit expensive), even below the iskra, and still a 6x9 rangefinder.

Hello,

the ISKRA 6x6 rangefinder camera is an copy of AGFA Super Isolette, but the ISKRA have include a coated rangefinder only and a exllent very sharp Industar lens.ISKRA type I or with lightmeter type II are soviet high class cameras with low price can't beat on other medium rangefinder cameras.But the ISKRA cameras are produced in the sixtees in minimum capacity. Any folks heard from the quality and the price go up on e-Bay. You can find a ISKRA in good cosmetical and technical condition taked and run.

Attantion please don't ISKRA to buy with include a ruby window on the backside, and many ISKRA II selenium lightmeters out of order.

I tested the ISKRA lens versus Rolleiflex Tessar and in the edge the ISKRA lens a littel bit better.

 

However the best folder performer I have is a Voigtlaender BESSA I

without rangefinder, but with a excellent 3,5/105 Color Skopar.

The Voigtlaender BESSA I is to buy without rangefinder for low price.

I have pay 80,- Deutschmark in condition like new.

In the attachmend shoe work with an separatly Voigtlaender rangefinder, and BESSA I included 6x9 and 4,5x6 size with to change on the viewer and parallax compensation, the BESSA II don't.

 

I will not tell about on my Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta 4,5x6 Opton Tessar 1:3,5/75mm T coated, the beat the all, I think is over your money limit.

 

Good luck

 

peter

Just a quick addition regarding the Iskra filters - apart from the hard to find 33mm screw on filters, I have found a couple of 37mm push on filters that fit.

 

Paul

Y'know, whenever anyone asks about "folder" here we all immediately think "pocketable camera" and not press/technical camera. In this case Andrew framed his question to push us in that direction.

 

Paul Droluk, who has more experience with pocketable folders that take 120 film than most of us, reported that they're very hit or miss. This is painfully consistent with my much more limited experience. Andrew, this fact should give you pause. You can easily blow your budget on several cameras and end up with nothing worth using.

 

Mike Kovacs replied sagely too. Among the good points he made was that most pocketable folders, and probably all of the ones that can be bought now for Andrew's "a few hundred dollars tops," have fixed lenses. Those fixed lenses often weren't that great when new and are now, after decades of use and abuse, even less than "not that great." I'm surprised he didn't make the leap to 2x3 press and technical cameras, whose lenses mount on boards so can be replaced easily.

 

My first, a 2x3 Speed Graphic with an uncoated 101/4.5 Ektar that was great when new and still is, folds but won't fit in a real pocket. It cost $75, a roll holder for it cost $25. Since I got the Speed I've acquired a Century Graphic, essentially a thinner Speed with no focal plane shutter. I've spent more than Andrew's initial budget since I got the Speed to be able to use pretty good modern lenses on both of them, still use the 101 Ektar more than any of the others.

 

So, Andrew, unless you have a serious need for a 6x6, 6x7, or 6x9 camera that fits in a real person's pocket, take a cold shower and reconsider the options.

 

Cheers,

 

Dan

Good advice all. It seems as if the multitude has said "hit or miss" aside from a few good

examples. My experience to date has been with modern cameras and lenses. I own an

Ebony 23S with 65mm SW, 105mm W and 200mm M Nikkor lenses, Hasselblads, Canon

SLRs and DSLRs and other cameras. I've bought and sold a Fuji GA645zi, Mamiya 7 and

Rollei SL66 among others and have borrowed my brother in law's Plaubel Makina. Almost

all my experience has been with very sharp modern optics and cameras. I'm not sure if

the results from an old folding camera like the Voigtl�ander or Zeiss Ikon will please me as

much as, say a Mamiya 6 or 7 or a Plaubel Makina. The allure of the old folders is

obviously, the price, the compactness and to a lesser degree, the retro vibe. Maybe I'll try

a less expensive folder and see what I get. If I like the results then maybe I'll look into it

more seriously, if not I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and look for a newer Mamiya 6 or 7

or a Plaubel Makina 67. Please feel free to continue the discussion and let me know if

there are other options that I've missed. Thanks!

The Bessa II with C.Heliar will be $600~$700

The Bessa II with C.Skopar may be under $400

Watch out for loose lens-platforms on the Bessa II; it can be fixed fairly easily.

I have a C.Heliar, and had a C.Skopar. I sold the C.Skopar to keep the more expensive lens.

I also have a Zeiss Ikonta 532/16 - 6x6. It is a more advanced camera (shutter + film wind interlock) but the Bessa is more "streamlined". The Ikonta also "wastes" one frame - it only produces 11 shots from a 120 film.

 

Part of your position is whether to buy a "classic (antique)" vs a more modern folder. I like shooting with my antiques, but am ready to put up with their quirks.

 

Enjoy

Vick

The Perkeo II will reliably give you an extra frame--13 6x6 per 120 roll. This is handy if you shoot transparencies, but a pain if you shoot negatives, because if you actually shoot 13 frames per roll, they won't fit on an 8x10" contact sheet or in a regular file page.