Which Film Nikons still work?

 

<p ><strong >Saturday, June 26, 2010</strong></p>

<p ><strong >I am looking for thoughts about film Nikons for students. Below, I've sketched some of my experience. I know other Forum readers have a world of experience. </strong><strong >Any other thoughts? </strong></p>

<p > I teach film photography to about 6o high school kids a year. They mostly love the darkroom, making prints, and sharing them. The students used to supply their own cameras---usually their “grandfather’s camera.” But in the last few years—acquiring film cameras is more and more problematic. </p>

<p > Consequently, I have started buying up cameras that work. Here’s what I’ve discovered.</p>

<p > Forget about everything with electronics from the 60’s thru the 80’s---- a lost cause. ( Of course there are a few exceptions.) </p>

<p >The mechanical models from that same period continue to work—even with stiff glue! I can depend on the Pentax K1000, Nikon F, F2, and F3. FM’s usually are OK. Fe’s forget ‘em.</p>

<p >The N models seem to holding up ok. I see lots of N6006, N,8008. The N90 is still reliable, as are the N70 and N80. When I see these models, I buy them. </p>

<p >Canon modes—the hugely popular AE series; seldom work. The lovely little Olympus modes---forget it.</p>

<p > About new film models. Freestyle and others started selling the old Vivitar. Last year we put five of these in service. I think three broke apart. The Nikon F10 seems to be bit more hardy; One of these lasted two sisters for five years! </p>

<p >Our high school students like film; but they wish someone would make a good one. </p>

 

<p>Most Nikon F801 or F801s (the European models) -and- N8008 and N8008s camera bodies may fit the bill. They run on four AA cells, and have a Manual mode, so the student would have to set the f-stop and shutter speed as needed. The F3, needing a at-times-hard-to-find battery, is good but for a student maybe overkill.</p>

<p>The Nikon F10 is not manufactured by Nikon, but by a second-company for Nikon. The F10 and the FM2N are much different in construction and durability.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>"<em>The F3, needing a at-times-hard-to-find battery ..."</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Hard to find? LR44/A76 alkalines are as common as dirt! :-)</p>

<p>Nikon F, F2, FM, FM2n, Nikkormat FT, FS, FT-2, FT-3 all mechanical, batteries are usually button batteries, some may require a sleeve, some may need hearing aid zinc oxide batteries #675. Google info. on the 'net on the (8) totally mechanical cameras listed for more info.<br>

Others I have or have had in the past: Canon F-1 and F-1n; Canon TX; Pentax K1000, Pentax Spotmatic, Minolta SRT series, also totally mechanical with similar battery issues.<br>

With metering issues, use "sunny sixteen" rules or handheld meter.</p>

<p>Are you looking for cameras that have built in metering that works. That would severly limit your choices. There are many good choices among cameras where the meter is no longer functional. Spotmatics, Canon FTs and FTbs, Nikkormats, Minolta SRTs.</p>

<p>Sounds about right, Gene. Your observations pretty well match my own experience handling lots of used cameras in photography shops, pawn shops, etc., tho' I'd add several manual-everything Canon, Olympus, Minolta and other SLRs to the list of good values. I'm not a fan of the Canon AE-1 but the FTb(n), TX and others are reliable. Ditto the Minolta SRT-series and Olympus OM-1.</p>

<p>The Nikon N6006 may be a best buy in a beater camera for students. The plastic film door latch is notoriously fragile and while it can be repaired I just tape mine shut. Great camera otherwise. I've seen a camera shop put a boxful of used N6006's by the door for a few bucks apiece.</p>

<p>Those Cosina-made SLRs have been sold under various marques, each with slightly different features, some even offering auto-exposure modes. Offhand, I can recall variations of the same body sold by Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Vivitar. Probably a few other variants floating around too. Seemed to be a reasonable value but there have been anecdotes suggesting reliability problems. Supposedly that same chassis served as the basis for the first Cosina/Voigtlander not-quite-rangefinder (used an optical finder in the accessory shoe) for use with Leica type screwmount lenses, but later Cosina made bodies specifically for their Voigtlander lineup.</p>

<p>My usual advice tends to irk some folks but I typically advise against the Nikon EM and Olympus OM-letter/double-digit series (OM-G/20, etc.). I've seen more of those that didn't work than in good working condition. Some folks also advise against the Canon T50 and T70. Personally I had good luck with both the T50 and T70, but that was more than 10 years ago and those models haven't gotten any younger. The T50 offered very limited control over exposure and the T70 had a reputation for auto-winders that wore out before the rest of the camera.</p>

<p>Thanks, Lex. I'm glad to have a bit of confirmation. I've purchased five of 8008's and one of the N90's last month. They actually survived student handling for a few months. I think the Vivitar is --or was a Cosina---the winding broke on one, the advance on another, on another one the self timing lever fell off. enough! better to get one of the older real cameras.<br>

I forgot to mention The old Canon Ft models; I used them in the 60's--now here they are again!<br>

I can't think of any other appliance that still works after 50 years--maybe a doorstop!<br>

I should have retired 7 years ago--but I'll hang on for a couple more years- teaching part time. Kids still love film and the darkroom. </p>

<p>I own a Nikon FE that is still in perfect working order. I don't know why you think they don't work.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"Kids still love film and the darkroom."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>A very true statement. I lurk on a few photography/art sites with a younger demographic and there is a genuine interest in film, darkroom and comparable non-digital artistic media. For some of 'em it's a fad, a hipster/retro fashion statement. But others are seriously interested in the process itself as much as the end product - the print.</p>

<p>Craig, Gene isn't claiming <em>your</em> FE doesn't work. I think he's just noting the same tendencies I've observed and referring to generalities based on handling a lot of older cameras. Granted, these are anecdotal, not scientific. But like Gene I've seen more used Nikon FE's with certain problems than Nikon FM or FM2(N) bodies. Not a knock against the FE, but it's just enough to make me a little less enthusiastic about recommending that model to a newbie who may not know how to examine a used camera to determine whether it's in good working order. For all I know it may be a coincidence that people with faulty FE's dump theirs onto the used market while others either keep their functional FE's or have them repaired. Our sampling group may be skewed by various factors. But I've noticed the same tendencies he's observed.</p>

<p>How about the Canon Elan models? Or the Canon A2/A2E? Is canon marketing any film cameras new these days?</p>

<p>I agree kids love the 'magic' of the darkroom. Its a cool process and many do want to master it.</p>

<p>Lex, of course I realize the issue is not one particular FE but a general pattern, but I've not come across an FE that had any fundamental issues related to its electronics failing from age. I agree in general that mechanical cameras are likely to outlast electronic ones, but in my experience the FE is still holding up well.</p>

<p>How about the Canon Elan models? Or the Canon A2/A2E? Is canon marketing any film cameras new these days?</p>

<p>I agree kids love the 'magic' of the darkroom. Its a cool process and many do want to master it. I hope schools continue to students the film experience, that they might not get otherwise.<br>

There used to be lots of various film cameras for sale pretty continuously on e-bay. Have you checked there lately?</p>

<p>I bought my first DSLR a couple of years ago but still use film medium format. Recently I bought a used Nikon F5 and it works a treat. Very robust and I am sure your pupils will find it difficult to damage the titanium on the prism although it is possible!<br>

Look at Ffordes website. They have loads of film cameras and do postal sales form Scotland. I bought my F5 from them.<br>

Good luck</p>

<p>F100s are $150 each and everywhere. Truly the bargain of the century if you ask me.<br>

<br />Kids might be happy even with a simple Nikkormat FT. FM is also good. P76 batteries are at all the drugstores, they power so many things, more than just cameras. My Lorus travel clock (from 1989) uses one! So don't rule out a good cheap F3 body.<br>

Kids these days grew up with digital, and film is something new and exciting for them. Luckily the college near my home still has a working darkroom, and classes are full every quarter.</p>

<p> Well I pretty much think you have assessed it pretty good. Of course there are always exceptions but it's no fun buying camera's that do not work or break quickly. I think with the Nikons the inexpensive AF models probably are a good choice as you said. Partly because they are not horribly old yet. The older electronic models are a waste of time as you said. The manual camera's like the FM are certainly nice but without having them serviced I imagine the shutter speeds will be poorly timed. The kids need a camera that will work properly and do not need a camera that has a collector following. The N8008, N90, N80 are excellent choices. They also take modern batteries. The N90 is a pretty hardy camera and I would think it would be excellent. It will also function well with the manual focus AI lens. I have a N80 that I use and think a lot of it. I have a motor on it so I can use rechargeable batteries. Otherwise it takes batteries that are certainly available but kind of expensive.</p>

<p>Fm2n is the last of the all manual FM models so would be the newest FM body. The FM3a is still quite expensive used. The F801, F80 and F90 bodies are usually bargins used. My F801 still works. I bought it used about 4 years. It is far from mint but still works well.</p>

<p>Many FE's and FE2's are still working great and are perfect for use in school. I used a FE2 with no problems and it still works great. Also the other ones you mentioned, all manual FMN2, F2, F3. Also the Pentax K100 you mentioned. The AE1 by Canon is a favorite for photo department equipment rooms for beginning and any 35mm film work, though I prefer the Nikons. Many 70's cameras with electronics are still great and give good service with proper CLA etc. </p>

<p>The trick is to not spend too much money on one. In most cases, once something breaks, it's not economically repairable, even if it can be repaired at all. It's cheaper to just buy another one to work with the lenses we already have. Working is better than "mint" appearance, in my experience.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Gene,<br>

I owned Nikon FEs and FE2s for years without any reliability issues (Though have heard that the FE2 shutter may not be as rugged as the FM2 version, but that's merely rumor.). I also loved owning a Nikon F2, which is probably the best built, best handling non-automatic manual SLR I have ever used. I would also highly recommend the Nikkormat series, especially the FT2 and FT3. Haven't used Canon, but in addition to those mentioned, am surprised no one has mentioned the F-1. One of my uncles used an Olympus OM-1 for many years without problems, so that's another marque I can highly recommend too.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Thanks Everyone for your thoughts and ideas! I have lots of questions based on your answers. (You guys should teach with me next year!)</p>

 

<p ><strong >“Are you looking for cameras that have built in metering that works. That would severly limit your choices?”</strong><strong > </strong></p>

<p ><strong>Query:</strong> Nikon guys give me your top three, <strong>one sentence</strong> advice tips for getting good exposures without a meter. </p>

<p ><strong>Remember, tips for kids. Keep it sweet and simple.</strong> I have several exposure tips, but I want to hear yours. (Assuming 400 speed film.) <strong > </strong></p>

<p> </p>

<p>Short and sweet answer: <a href="http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm">Fred Parker's Ultimate Exposure Computer</a>.</p>

<p>Basically, it's Sunny 16 expanded to include virtually every exposure scenario. It describes typical EV (exposure values) for all sorts of ordinary and tricky lighting situations. Follow that number down to the ISO, shutter speed and aperture. </p>

<p>Really simple. Helps when I'm shooting indoor stuff to avoid errors caused by backlighting from windows in daylight, or artificial lights in the frame. I just keep in mind that if the EV should be around 6 and suddenly I notice my meter is claiming 1/250th at f/8 at ISO 400, well, pretty good chance the matrix metering is being fooled by that overhead track light, the window behind my subject, etc.</p>

You might start buying some Yashica-mat TLRs, too. If the kids like the darkroom now, they'll love it with roll film.

<p>Lex, hey. Fred looks great! Have you seen the Black Cat Exposure guide?<br>

"The EV around 6."----I haven't thought of that. I tell them if it's outside and daytime sun (90% of the time in Santa FE) got to 250 at f 11. </p>

<p>Good exposure w/out a meter: Sunny 16, estimating the number of stops 'away' from the Sunny 16 setting a given scene is; bracketing in the direction you might be 'off'</p>