kiro Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 I'm faced with a little bit of a dilemna. In a few weeks, I'm going to be doing a shoot at my cousin's new martial arts studio so they have some promo stuff. I've been visualizing the various shots and setups that I want to do.<br><br> Yesterday, I picked up <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Lighting-Dramatic- Portrait-Michael-Grecco/dp/0817442278/sr=8-1/qid=1168355545/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105- 4178443-8470003?ie=UTF8&s=books" target="_blank">Michael Grecco's book on portraiture</a>. In there is an example of a gym shot that I really really like (boxer's back to camera, spot from camera left throwing shadow on the wall to the subject right). He gives the full layout of how he lit this shot. <br><br> I would really like to set up something similar, but in my (overly?) conscious attempt to not steal, I'm wondering how different I need to make my shot to make it my own. It's an odd question, I realize that, but I'm interested in hearing how others make that distinction between theft and "a different take on the same idea". I probably wouldn't be so obsessed with ensuring that I don't steal except that I'm going to be applying for an MFA program soon and don't want to get knocked out when I'm genuinely trying to make a good image. <br><br>I know on one end of the spectrum, there are those that believe that there is no originality, and that everything you've done has been done before in some way and that you're subconsciously pulling from that. I'm looking for input on how you think through the process. When you see an image that you really like, and then find yourself faced with the same set of parameters to work in, what steps do you take or not take to ensure that you're not stealing? <br><br> On a side note, if you haven't seen Grecco's book, you should check it out. At $20, it's a steal just for the back section that has a bunch of full page shots. He also gives a number of examples of his photos with clear detail as to how he lit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellis_vener_photography Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 technique is just technique. As long as you don't exactly copy the image and just use the techniques he describes you are fine in my book. If Grecco didn't want you to try it, he wouldn't have published it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterlyons Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 I agree with Ellis. I don't believe you're stealing just by copying someone's lighting setup. That's how we learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelging Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 He is giving you information on how to shoot a photo, using his knowledge, for the cost of the price of the book. If you were not one of the first 12 people who started using cameras to take photos in the 1800's then you probably have copied someone else's technique. I would take what you have learned from the book and build on it, using your own Ideas. I rip off Rembrandt's lighting all the time in my window portraits, and I don't send him a check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiro Posted January 9, 2007 Author Share Posted January 9, 2007 thanks guys. i'm starting to take all of this more seriously as i get closer to the time where i have important stuff riding on me doing things right, so i'm trying to make sure i stay on the straight and narrow. thanks for the input... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickhilker Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 I agree completely with the opinions above, but would like to add another perspective: plagiarism is the most sincere form of compliment -- except, perhaps, for cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake_tauber Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 "Copying" images is common in the worlds of art/photography. Mark Klett did it with his Rephotographic Survey Project (1977-79)where he copied 19th Century landscape images. Also, Richard Misrach did a series of photos of paintings http://www.amazon.com/Pictures-Paintings-Richard-Misrach/dp/1576871479 Restaging work is quite different than making a copy of someone elses images and then selling them as originals or as your own. Go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen_S Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 If you are in doubt why don't you sign te picture ***, inspired by ###? - Originality is nice, but the world probably isn't waiting for me to invent a round thing that makes moving objects easier. Sorry, my artistic background is limited. At law school we were just taught to select those we quote carefully. Honestly photography isn't just art, it has a crafts part too, and the difference between me and a mediocre cook is that he 's unlike me able to follow a recipy. So don't worry, get the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellis_vener_photography Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 <I>Mark Klett did it with his Rephotographic Survey Project (1977-79)where he copied 19th Century landscape images. </I><P>No Klett didn't. Yes He went to the same places and shot as close as he could from roughly the same point of view and with the same framing. If you compare any of Klett's images to the ones shot of the same landscapes in the 19th century you would have to be blind not to see the differences betwen what he saw and what Jackson photographed. The whole point of Klett's Rephotographic Survey Project was to show how we have altered those landscapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 <i>Mark Klett did it with his Rephotographic Survey Project</i><p> There must be a cultural difference between our definitions of "Copy". Rephotograhy is documentary work. Not copying. One element of photography is the pictures moment in time. Images made over such a significant period of time are not copies. <p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_gillespie Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 When you prepare a meal from a published recipe do you send a small check to the original chef? He is giving the examples in his book to help people shoot better photographs, so you are not stealing, you are learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemming_s._christensen1 Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Kier, at Greccos home page his bio says: Grecco works with an unrivalled technical ability and a rare sensitivity. http://www.michaelgrecco.com/about.php And the tricks at The Digital Journalist , January, Issue 111, here http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0701/grecco02.html If you have got his gear and technical ability then the only thing left to rival is his rare sensitivity! Go ahead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brainbubba_motornapkins Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Rare sensitivity? He's a commercial photographer and celebrity portraitist who knows his craft. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but due to the exigencies of their trade, few commercial photographers ever develop "rare sensitivity". Richard Avedon and Irving Penn are rare exceptions. Compared to them, Grecco is an uninteresting hack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_needham Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Pablo Picasso said "Bad artists copy. Great artists steal." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakon_soreide Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 I think Pablo's quote is "Good artists copy, great artists steal," but I've seen both versions online. If it had been "bad", the second part would probably have started with "good" instead of "great", and so I am leaning towards believing the actual quote starts with "Good". Then again, the entire thing has been translated and perhaps even paraphrased since Picasso once said words to that effect, so who knows?<p> Making something based on someone else's work can be very tutorial, as well as a kind of tribute to the original. If you make something better of it than the original, which is what I think Picasso was alluding to, then it is indeed great art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake_tauber Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Elis and Pico, I agee that Klett didn't actually "copy" the work, but restaged it for his desired effect. My point is there is nothing wrong with trying to "re-create" an image. Don't you hate it when someone agrees with you :>) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank uhlig Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Those who have seen the Diane Arbus photo of the giant man at his home with parents, have any of you seen the small Cezanne painting in the NE corner of the main room (with Matisse's wall/ceiling illustrations) at the Barnes Museum in Philly? The composition and lighting ars exactly the same. In Cezanne, the man stands hunched over, with his shadow reaching up, exactly the same way as in Diane's picture. Did Diane steal from Cezanne? Where did P.C steal this idea from? Stealing means getting possession illegitimately. She used a trick, a way of someone else, maybe. But steal? I would almost doubt that she had seen, been to the Barnes Museum at all. But who knows what she might have seen unconsciously. And where did Paul C. get this idea from? If you look for original unfound ideas in composition, keep on looking. If you photopgraph, do not mind the influences. In other arts, such as music, i do not think there is a chord or melody or rythm left that has not been used. Steal - as you call this erroneously - with pride and well! You are also drinking some of the molecules of H2O today that Alexander drank in his time, and so forth. We share this earth and these ideas etc etc ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_ullsmith1 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Matt, I think Leonard Bernstein said that about symphonic composers, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee_shively Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 And when Brahms was confronted with the similarities in one of his symphonies to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, he reportedly responded, "Any damn fool can see that!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_lazzarini Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Michael Ging said<p> <i>"I rip off Rembrandt's lighting all the time in my window portraits, and I don't send him a check."</i><p> No need to Michael since as we all know Harmenszoon van Rijn has long since passed onto the great beyond.<p> Strangely enough though, among the more prominent characteristics of his work was his use of<br> a theatrical employment of light and shadow derived from Caravaggio which he adapted for very personal means.<p> Now since Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio just happens to be one of my long departed relatives,<br> you may instead send your checks to me and thus unburden yourself.<p> Cheers!<p><div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelging Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Bob,I would be happy to , just send me a copy of the Will, naming you, and the checks in the mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Here is a twist. A painter copied one of my photographs. I am okay with that, I just wish I had a shot at buying his painting! It would be a cool convergence. (Can post picture if you like.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carol_collins Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Kier, I enjoyed the discussion on your ethical question, and find it ironical that you end your dilemma about "stealing" to let us know that Grecco's book, at $20 "it's a steal." Do we have a new ethical dilemma to settle here now? When I was a school teacher, I was told, "creativity is knowing who to steal from." Do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiro Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 LOL Carol - good point... thanks for the chuckle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank uhlig Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Carol, did your teacher not know enough grammar to say "creativity is knowing whom to steal from" correctly, instead of your surely misquoted and wrong "creativity is knowing who to steal from". Remember grammar only went out the window with this, our generation, as did whom, whose, ... and our teachers still knew grammar alright. Just trying to set the historic record and evidence straight. Julius Caesar did not wear a wrist watch either, as he did on stage here last night in a play ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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