When will we get the first mirroless evf professional camera?

I just acquired a Sony 5n. I have a Canon 5D and four L lenses. This is not about which of the two is better. It is

about the future. I have only had the 5n for a couple of weeks and have made no lasting judgments about the camera

and the Sony e-mount system except there is a limited selection of lenses now. However, using this camera has really

opened my eyes to the future. The software in the 5n coupled with the lack of a mirror mechanism makes for some

very interesting new capabilities. For instance the camera software based upon rapid fire shutter actuations can do

the following in the camera:

 

1. HDR merged into one image in camera

2. 100 rapid fire exposures while moving the camera that are merged into sharp panoramas.

3 Six rapid fire exposures in low light that makes a single image with less noise better than high iso images done in the same light. (dpreview tests)

 

 

I picked this camera because it has a 1.5 crop Sony sensor that is used in some Nikon dslr bodies. I have not tested it

with action photographs although I did a swim meet where I did a number of head shots and party shots afterward that

were difficult to tell from my 5d pictures in quality in Lightroom. They take a bit more output sharpening than the 5D.

 

 

I have only used the 18-55 lens so far and so cannot really comment upon how good these e-mount lenses are

although the 18-55 surprised me at the color and quality that I have gotten so far.

I do think I will have to spend 350 bucks for an electronic view finder because even though you can raise the intensity

of the lcd in bright light it is still difficult to see in direct sun. From what I read the Sony EVF for this camera is quite

usable and quite good.

 

 

I could go on but my point is that this little camera that is so convenient to carry around it is a harbinger of the future of photography. It convinces me that the mirrorless evf technology is possible in all cameras. As it has in the NEX 5n it will enable reductions in weight and size of all cameras and provide for radically improved functionality.

 

 

The pictures out of this 16.1 MP sensor camera are better than the XTi I traded to buy it. The AF is better and faster

although it is the same contrast based technology of the XTi or the 5d. I am getting more consistency in exposure I think than I do with the Canons. The 5n is five years newer at least than the 5d. There are newer and better cameras for comparison.

 

 

 

I have made a few prints from the 5n and they are quite good in color and resolution.. Nothing really big yet however.

I think the menus on the 5n are quite confusing and badly organized and I have to use a two stop reduction in that

little flash to keep from burning out highlights. You can make a bounce flash out of it with a white business card. We will see over the next couple of months how much I use 5n in opposition the the 5d before I decide about it but I like it. I am more excited about it than any camera I have bought in a long time because I think it shows the way to the future and it makes good pictures and internally processes things that I do with more steps in PS. It does foretell a whole new way of processing functions in camera.

 

 

What I think by looking at other sites is that there is a revolution is going on quietly although not much is made of it on

PN. And apparently Sony is leading the way with the NEXs and the pellicle non moving mirrors in other new cameras. It

is surprising to me that people have actually been selling out their dslrs after using the Sony NEXs for awhile. I am not ready to give up my L lenses yet and will use both cameras. The NEXs take other lenses with adapters but except for Sony lenses with special adapters other lenses have no automation on the NEX 5n. I have a meet coming up at Boston

University that has strong back light at a dim finishing end. I will use Canon for those difficult shots.

 

 

My question is how long before we see a mirrorless full frame evf camera that functions as well as mirrored camera?

Nikon has stepped into the expensive P&S marked with the V1 and I handled and tried it before I got the Sony. I liked it a lot but was wary of the 2.7 crop sensor. And, where is Canon in this EVF interchangable lens market: I have already stuck my toe in the water in another pond after twenty three years in the EOS pond.

 

So where is this all going and how fast do you think we will get there?

<p>What's the point. If you are going to require hulking big lenses (e.g. Canon ""L") and full frame coverage (you said "professional" use), why would you need a smaller camera body?</p>

<p>Even with APS-C the lenses still pretty much dominate the overall camera/lens size most of the time. EVIL or MILC cameras are aimed at consumers, not professionals. That's where the market is.</p>

<p>Expect something from Canon in 2012</p>

I really meant full frame rather than professional Bob. And just to contradict myself I at one time worked for a newspaper. I could have used the NEX 5n for most everything except sports and then low light pictures. Future improvements in higher ISO images could preclude the 2.8 and bigger lenses we carry now. The 18-55 3.5-5.6 may be enough and that is pretty small on the 1.5 crop 5n. Thanks, but as I said I am not advocating anything just asking where is this going and will use both big hulking and small stuff in the future. . The assumption is that lenses will always be big and hulking needs challenging. Getting rid of mechanical mirror operations regardless of the size of the body will allow for more in camera processing functions by eliminating the inherent mirror delay allowing greater frame rates not only for pictures but for processing that improves low light pictures as in the 5n but on a more sophisticated basis. I still have to use my 70-200 2.8L in BUs dark corners for swim meets but seeing the way things have progressed over the past five years particularly low light improvements that may not always be true. Maybe Canon is working on this stuff. And, Bob, maybe I won't live so long. I was an R&D director and my job then was to challenge conventional thinking Thank you for your opinion..

<p>When? I doubt actual professionals will care.<b>Moderator edit. Ridicule is not an acceptable method of discourse on photo.net</b>.</p>

 

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<p>Someday, we will have completely electronic, solid state cameras with no mechanical parts as such.<br>

No mirror flopping around, no shutter going helter-skelter.</p>

<p>Someday.</p>

<p>In the meantime, welcome back to Kansas, Dorothy. ;)</p>

I made an assumption that professional cameras have to be full frame. That's not really true. Lots of 1.5 and 1.6 crops are used profesionally today for weddings, newspaper work, and sports. I failed to account for upcoming advances in sensor technology which could make these crops more adaptable for professional use.. So my title was more to the point of professional use rather than my later allusion to full frame as if that constituted professional use. There are lots of rumors floating around that Sony was on track to develop full frame with EVIL. That is probably not true. If you have not looked at what Sony is doing with their line of cameras all I can say it was a revelation to me as I dug into it. I am not a Sony fan and I hope Canon catches up. I have a big sunk cost.

dennis. I have bag packed with the following that I take out the door to do a swim meet. Two bodies. A three pound 100-400L, a three pound 70-200 2.8L, a two pound 24-105L and various other stuff that weighs a lot. I When I did weddings I carried three bags with triple redundant Medium format and Canon stuff. I have gotten tired of lugging all that crap around. When I worked for paper I had a thirty pound bag. So grabbing under two pounds of NEX 5n is very convenient to carry around and I am more likely to grab it when I go someplace. A lot of times I look at that heavy bag and leave it home. So what's so funny I say with a smile. I didn't know I could make people laugh? And as a former photo business owner I care a lot about advancing technology in something that has my unabiding interest. It really excites me when I can get excellent big prints out of that small camera.

<p>I don't know about a professional grade mirrorless EVF camera, but I actually think we'll see a professional grade "translucent mirror" camera (which uses an EVF) within the next year or so. Of course, it will more than likely be a part of the Sony lineup, as they seem to be expanding this part of their lineup rather quickly. There are a few quirks (dpreview) that need to be overcome in the meantime, but I'm sure that Sony is hard at work to fix those.</p>

<p>Well, we already have APS-C MILCs. I just don't see the market for a full frame version right now.</p>

<p>If you are hauling "A three pound 100-400L, a three pound 70-200 2.8L, a two pound 24-105L and various other stuff that weighs a lot", I'm not sure if the size and weight of the body makes much difference.</p>

<p>MILCs are indeed convenient, but there is a tradeoff. The more convenient (i.e. small and light) the bodies and sensors are, the lower the image quality. That's because to shrink down both the cama and lens you have to shrink the sensor.</p>

<p>I'm currently testing a Pentax Q, which has a 1/2.3" sensor (average P&S size), with interchangeable lenses. It's <strong>tiny,</strong> very light and so is the lens I have ( 47mm f1.9 equivalent). Very convenient, beautiful little camera. But that sensor limits image quality. Notthat image quality is bad, in fact far from it. It's very, very good - for a 1/2.3" sensor.</p>

<p>If you want better image quality you can move up to Nikon, but it's still a small sensor (2/6x factor). A little bigger, a little less convenient, but better image quality. Nice cameras, I've briefly played with one, but more suited to consumers than professionals.</p>

<p>If that's not good enough you can go to an Olympus Pen. 4/3 sensor (2x multiplier). Camera's a little bigger, lenses are a little bigger, but you pick up some quality.</p>

<p>If that won't do then you have the Sony NEX cameras with a APS-C sensor. Now you are up to full size APS-C lenses. The camera is no longer pocketable with a lens attached. It does save you some size and weight compared to a DSLR body.</p>

<p>The late Steve Jobs had cameras on his list of things to revolutionize. Wonder what he would have come up with. My guess is it wouldn't have been a large format MILC. The market lies elsewhere.</p>

<p>It will be interesting to see which way Canon go. The Nikon route to smaller or the Sony route to higher quality. The Nikon route does have the advantage that you also sell a lot of new lenses, though you could follow the Olympus model and make a "micro EF-S" standard (with a short backfocus distance) and sell your new lenses that way.</p>

<p>I'm hoping that by staying out of the MILC market for so long, Canon will have had time to develop something really new and learn from the mistakes of its competitors. Given their history it would be disappointiung if they came up with a "me too" camera that really does nothing more than the others.</p>

<p>Nothing has to be anything except what you want to buy :</p>

<p>MILC? Is that anything like a MILF?<br>

If so, I'm all for it.</p>

<p> I think that i-cloud is going to change things. The future is connectivity and not so much about if a camera has a mirror or not. I can see photojounalist taking photos and transmitting them to the publisher in seconds via the net. Breaking news nearly instantly. <br>

However professionals have been using mirrorless camera's since the beginning of photography. Large format camera's have neen the staple of landscape photographers since the beginning and many Leica photographers were/are professionals as street, journalist, wedding photographers and what have you. My first camera as a little boy was a mirrorless camera. It was a brownie box camera. I still have the photos of my dog from that camera. </p>

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<p><br /><em>I think that i-cloud is going to<br />change things. The future is connectivity and not so much about if a camera has<br />a mirror or not. I can see photojounalist taking photos and transmitting them<br />to the publisher in seconds via the net. Breaking news nearly instantly.</em></p>

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<p>Right on Ross,<br>

Back in the early 80's a veteran PJ told me of being on a panel for some newspaper syndicate that discussed future technology. One jaw-dropper was sending a digital file made with a Nikon fitted with a Kodak digital back from a public phone using an analog modem. It's no stretch of the imagination today to expect real-time transmission of images from inexpensive compact cameras. The question should be: what drives pro-gear product development efforts: studio or PJ work? If it is the later as I suspect, being connected to a Cloud system (real time or not) would give over in-camera processing to that resource. Imaging requirements would be about speed rather than pixel count. Smaller sensors and near zero lag time would rule. Consumer cams would benefit from advancements in compact and efficient PJ system spin-offs more than studio pro gear. I can imagine a pro sporting vest pockets stocked with two or three current NEX type cams and a smart phone right now. </p>

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<p> Breaking news nearly instantly. </p>

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<p>We already have that. I think many people mistake quality for quickness.</p>

<p>I've seen that first hand with local news. Reporters transmitting images and video from the scene without any idea if the scene is actually news worthy.</p>

<p>There's something to be said for delayed, accurate news.</p>

<p>Eric</p>

<p>To get back to the original topic, I'd be all over a mirrorless camera with professional features.</p>

<p>I don't believe you need either large, heavy lenses or a 24mm x 36mm capture area in order to benefit from having great image quality, great dynamic range, very fast autofocus, a high frame frame, and redundant storage.</p>

<p>Eric</p>

<p>No, but you can't do it with a 5x7mm sensor either.</p>

<p>You can't have small cameras and small lenses and high quality. Whether you need 24x36 is another argument.</p>

<p>The frame size you select dictates the minimum size for the camnera and (especially) the lenses.</p>

<p>First you have to define "high quality", otherwise you can't discuss the camera system you need. That then dicatates the minimum frame size, which in turn dictates the minimum lens size and the smallest camera that it can be crammed into.</p>

<p>If you are talking about good looking 8x10 prints taken at low ISO in good light you can get away with a lot less than if you are talking 20x24 prints taken at high ISO in low light.</p>

<p>I'd like a car with all the performance of a Porche 911 turbo, but with a small engine, 50mpg and a price about the same as a mid-range Hyundai, but I don't suppose I'll get one.</p>

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<p>You can't have small cameras and small lenses and high quality. Whether you need 24x36 is another argument.</p>

 

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<p>Good thing neither Leica nor Fuji believe that. :)</p>

<p>Eric</p>

<p>A 35mm Leica is not small. Neither are the small range of available lenses. If they were was you'd no doubt be owning an M9 and a set of Leica primes by now. Of course cost is a bit of an issue there.</p>

<p>Not sure which Fuji you are talking about, but the X100 isn't particularly tiny or cheap and it has a fixed "pancake" lens. Stick something on it similar to a 24-105/4L zoom and it gets disctinctly less "pocketable"</p>

<p>If you mean the X10, it looks like a MILC but of course it isn't and it only has a P&S sized sensor. However it is pocketable, just like the Pentax Q.</p>

<p>Who know what the rumored Fuji MILC will turn out to be.</p>

<p>So yes, you can make a fairly small APS-C mirrorless camera and if you don't mind a fixed pancake lens on it, it's fine. Bit restrictive for most professional use. Of course you never use a lens with a focal length other than 35mm and you don't mind paying at least twice the price of a decent entry level DSLR it's probably perfect.</p>

<p>Right now the 4/3 Olympus Pen cameras probably hit the sweet spot of being small enough to be significantly more convenient to carry then an SLR system, yet without sacrificing too much image quality for the majority of users. However I don't think we'll be seeing too many professional landscape or wildlife or sports or fashion photographers using them. Photojournalists, maybe. And as a second camera, maybe.</p>

 

<p><br />Eric.<br>

The topic is to do with kinds of pro equipment to expect which is what I addressed. I proposed that the outcome is a camera marketing issue probably favoring small, light and fast. Having direct feeds from a news event directly to an editor is a <strong>good</strong> thing for the vast contemporary news business. It isn't equipment that makes fast bad journalism. Fox Movietone News (c. 1928) shown weeks after the event and today's instant and raw <em>footage </em>are the same in terms of judging accuracy of reporting.</p>

<p>I could see MF bodies dropping the mirror and going evf.</p>

<p>Dick, you will be interested in this article in the EOSHD site about a prospective or at least prototype Canon model, robust mirrorless model coming down the pike, with video functions as its aim.</p>

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<p>http://www.eoshd.com/content/5196/canon-4k-mirrorless-dslr-available-within-12-months</p>

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<p>Clearly this mirror box free approach is maturing. I have used a Panasonic Lumix GH 2 for about six months, though it is not weatherproof, it has just about every other feature that I might need and I am growing to enjoy using this lightweight baby. In above linked website also, you will note how the GH2 and its kin are being adapted to commercial video, a serious sign of budding success, so I observe....</p>

Thanks Gerry. That's a nice look at the work going on at Canon and why perhaps they are also headed to mirrorless operation. ISO 200,000. That would be something. One thing that's hard to describe with NEX 5n is after you get through the menus and set the soft keys how easy it is to use once it is in your hand. I guess what I read is that there is more integration going on at Canon between the camera designers and the video designers and that certain video lenses don't work with a mirror box on cameras designed to take both lenses. Am I correct? My NEX 5n is about a third of the size and weight of my 5d with the 24-105 f4. The 18-55 is two and 5/8s if an inch long and half the diameter of the 24-105 when at their wide positions. I just got through going over a review of the Sony A77. It has a translucent fixed mirror. (pellicle). What really got me to thinking was the amount of innovation that Sony has put into these cameras which I think more important for future technology than comparing sizes. The 5n and 77 are quite similar in function. Most of this innovation was a direct result of getting rid of the moving mirror, developing EVF and in the 77 the mounting of a phase detection focusing sensor in the top of that fixed mirror box. I really think change is coming. I certainly have no idea how that change will take shape. Hence my original question. I am glad you like me are enjoying your little camera. We will see what Canon has to offer. I hope they retain the current EF lens mount.

<p>I don't know when it will happen, but odds are much sooner than we think. The mistake is in believing in the supremacy (and requirement) of the FF sensors. The patents are out there already (though no working camera prototypes have been shown that I know of). Soon, there will be no need for an FF sensor. The sensors people worship today will look like dinosaur bones. This evolution is not about downsizing hardware for the Geezer Boomers, duffers upgrading from a P&S, or lazy turistas (when will they learn to foot-zoom?) but it's all about <em>anticipating the next wave of sensor technology. </em>Also sorting out ergonomics, controls, lenses, etc. and preparing photographers for the not-so-distant future.</p>

<p>I doubt much of this will be backward-compatible. At best, adaptor-compatible.</p>

Luis. You make a lot of sense. I think you are right about sensor sizes. Well said.

<p> That Canon mirrorless DSLR is really cool looking. It looks like it answers the OP question pretty well. Who knows maybe Nikons new models that are overdue will be like that also. I wonder why they call it a mirrorless DSLR.</p>