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When and how do you say “Enough. Please”?


hjd

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<p>I had a post on here a while ago with some of the situation I am about to describe posted but had it closed down as it was running off point and I had made some judgment errors in my initial post. Some of you may recall it. Anyway, I am still dealing with this same Bride and I do need advice. I will try to leave emotional aspects out of it all but after months of emails, I cannot guarantee that I won’t express my frustration.<br /> <br /> A bride booked with me a large package at a discounted price. Throughout the year, my costs change and in effect, gave her a larger package and a better deal. Never was she asked to pay any increase in fee as the contract will be held up even though my albums are costing more and so is the new second shooter. Wedding came and went, bride received image gallery in a timely fashion; stated she was happy BUT….<br /> <br /> To make many, many, many emails as short as I can, she has either insisted or demanded a) that I make changes to my packages to accommodate her wants b) reduce or waive my fees for extra’s (albums, prints, disc, my time) for each of her requests due to B&G having financial difficulties c) extend any deadlines I have given her by constantly emailing me up and until the deadline expires with questions and concerns and d) that I have agreed on something or should agree to something by making attempts to somehow decode my carefully worded emails to suit what she thinks is possible. Everything from wanting more images to retouching to amount of images in her albums to swapping out product for product. No stone was left unturned.<br /> <br /> From what I can gather, she is ideally after, in her own words, “the most bang for [my] buck”. She wants all the big stuff and cannot afford it. Instead, she’ll email me ‘options’ and ‘trade this for that’ scenarios. I finally put one final offer on the table as I have had enough dealings with her, know I need to finalize her product delivery, and want to officially go on my Mat Leave (due in very few weeks/days). <br /> <br /> The offer was in lieu of her albums (main & two parent), she could have the High-Res disk at her budgeted cost (vs the full amount), and the prints included in her package in turn fulfilling the contract. The disc was truly a main goal of hers as was her albums but she couldn’t settle on album image selections, upgrades, downgrades, etc, etc. This way she could have all images, at her cost. I was very willing at this point to take the loss I have incurred and will further incur to end all of the debate between her and I, reduce the cost of the disc and wish her a Merry Christmas.<br /> <br /> The latest debacle is she now thinks she is getting Copyright because I told her a Print Release form would accompany the disc. (just to note, Canadian Copyright Law is different than the US but there are similarities). After I emailed explaining what her limited license will grant her, what she can and cannot do, I discovered that she had posted on her FB an image from her wedding, by my second shooter, taken from her blog, with the watermark cropped off. This is the second time she has cropped off a watermark even though she has been given Web-sized images to be used and all the reasons why in the copyright that accompanies the Web-sized image disc. The first time was in her Wedding Slideshow. She used an image I took during their e-session. I overlooked it the first time (as I never predicted the outcome I am in now) but now I am just ticked. My thin piece of thread broke.<br /> <br /> Here’s my frustration. I feel completely disrespected as her photographer as she hasn’t shown an ounce of appreciation for the time I have given her, the courtesy I have shown her, or the work I have done over and above for her(constantly in my mind thinking “Okay, now she should be happy”). With her last email she worded and emphasized many things in CAPS lock in an attempt to paraphrase this new deal and her newly acquired ‘Copyright’ rights in what I felt was almost an attempt to make sure ‘I’ understood what I was agreeing too. Then I discovered the photo with a cropped watermark.<br /> <br /> She is a woman who is use to getting what she wants. And here I am, offering a High-Res disc at a discount she asked for when I really want to say, “No. You violated the rules. No more deal.” "If I give you a disc, I’m almost guaranteed you’ll break them again." But then I’m stuck with dealing with her album design again, and the problems I initially had with all of that and dealing with her again next year when I come off of Mat Leave. <br /> <br /> I just want to say “Enough.” Can I ideally remove the offer on the table as she has violated Copyright already, stick to the original albums, design them without her input, send them to her and say, WYSIWYG? Or keep the deal, mention the watermark issue, hand her the disc and be done with it? ~sigh~ Honestly, my primary goal right now is to end this the best & most professional way and go and have my baby and Christmas with my kids.<br /> <br /> Sorry. I knew this would get long. But when can you tell a Bride, 'Enough!"?</p>
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<p>"...She is a woman who is use to getting what she wants..." I'm not a wedding photographer, but I have dealt with these types, men and women, all my life. Try negotiating with Captains of Naval Vessels and their counter parts. You don't know "getting what they want" until you've dealt with them.....and there have been contracts lawyered to death, that they want to break.</p>

<p>And from that, I've learned many things. They love this c@#p! They will wheel and deal, stall, drag things out, until they get what they want. They don't care how long it takes. They expect you to give up. The only way to break even with them is to do same.</p>

<p>But, to your question. When can you tell a Bride, Enough! I would have done it the very first time she "demanded" I do something. The original contract would have been brought out of my briefcase like a sledgehammer and I would have said. This is what you get.....</p>

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<p>I think you should put your personal needs first in this situation, and find the quickest and easiest "exit strategy" (I hate that phrase...). You really do not need the stress at this point given your impending Mat Leave.</p>

<p>If you're giving her a CD of high-res images it is of little consequence whether she has cropped of a watermark or not. I wouldn't worry about this. One important question is whether you have fulfilled your contractual obligations completely....? If so, I feel you are quite rightly entitled to make a final, and fair, offer and leave it at that. I would put together an email to her summarising, in a paragraph, the to'ing and fro'ing over the past however long and how you have tried to accommodate her needs within your product offerings, then put a final offer on the table, in line with the options available to her when she booked or over and beyond that - i.e. a CD of high-res images. Make it very clear that this is final and you will not entertain any further negotiation. There are people out there wiling to milk you like a cow, and you need to stand up for yourself! I do hope you have a signed contract. I really don't see why you should subsidise her requirements because of her financial difficulties. She could always place an order in 6 months or a year when she has more money.</p>

<p>These things are best dealt with by nipping it in the bud at the first hint of things getting out of hand, i.e. beyond a reasonable latitude one is willing to negotiate within.</p>

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<p><em>Honestly, my primary goal right now is to end this the best & most professional way and go and have my baby and Christmas with my kids.</em></p>

<p>If that were truly the case you would have wrapped up the deal by now and gone on with your life rather than posting another thread with more complaints about this problem bride. You're going to get exactly the same kind of advice this time as you did the first time around.</p>

<p>It seems pretty clear that this is now a personal issue between you and the bride. If you want to resolve things and move on, you have to get past the personal issue and finish the deal.</p>

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<p>When dealing with people like that, just do your part asap and ignore them afterward. Now the problem is, through your exchange of emails, you agreed on something more. You might need to contact a solicitor and see if you must fullfill those terms. This might cost you extra, but should get you off the hook nice and clean once and for all. The truth is, people like that can never be satisfied. The more you give in, the more she will squeeze you. You did your best to please her, now is the time to stand your ground even if she might badmouth you (I got the feeling she badmouthed most people in her life anyway).</p>
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<p><em>"Here’s my frustration. I feel completely disrespected as her photographer as she Hans’t shown an ounce of appreciation for the time I have given her, the courtesy I have shown her, or the work I have done over and above for her(constantly in my mind thinking “Okay, now she should be happy”). With her last email she worded and emphasized many things in CAPS lock in an attempt to paraphrase this new deal and her newly acquired ‘Copyright’ rights in what I felt was almost an attempt to make sure ‘I’ understood what I was agreeing too. Then I discovered the photo with a cropped watermark." -Heather</em><br>

<em></em><br>

Looks like you have identified the problem and the good news is that it's really more emotional than anything else. Suggest that you not quibble about the "copyright" issue, it really all boils down to printing and her use of the images....if you simply give her the disk and indicate that this is the final delivery and completes the contract (actually receive this in writing from her prior to giving her the images) then you can put her and this situation behind you. You'll also need to put aside your "people-pleasing needs for this situation. Don't set yourself-up wanting or needing her appreciation or approval.....in the end it doesn't matter. "Don't worry, be happy"......good luck.<br>

<em><br /></em></p>

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<p>As an aside I would suggest that ANYONE who wants to be a paid photographer read this thread and the recent thread by MissyKay expounding on the inherent problems dealing with the business side of things.<br>

I want to be paid well for my work in the future when I feel I have the appropriate skillset and plan. These threads show that even when you have it all together, things that you have little if any control over find a way of just making you crazy.<br>

I certainly will approach the business side of things with very concrete terms for each client so they and I know EXACTLY what will and will not occur. Perhaps there are those out there who have developed a good way of identifying the troublemakers during the intial interview and have figured out how NOT to work with those folks?</p>

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Robert W, I am with you. I would certainly contact a lawyer for a contract if I were to start a photography business. I doubt I could be a wedding photographer, however, as I do not care for spending time modifying features of people. .oO( Oh, that would be in contract. Of course! )
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<p>The issue is the disc. Put your "feelings" in check and cut your losses. Negotiate a final price and be done with it. The people I shoot for will inflate their packages so the disc is always included. Print sales are pretty light but that seems to be the trend these days. <br>

And I'd hardly call a FaceBook image with your watermark cropped off a copyright infringement. Who cares? It's a wedding photo. Besides, do you really want this bride's circle of friends coming to you anyway? With this bride serving as advisory counsel? (I would think not).</p>

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<p>I do have a signed contract and in it states the package contents of the albums and not the disk. It all started with one request that turned into one more, which became one more and so forth. Everytime she sent an email and I sent one back explaining what I could do for her, out would come another email picking at mine. She does have a way of dragging things out, even when I've been pretty firm with her.<br /> <br /> My last few emails gave her a final offer (the disc vs the albums), stated that if she accepts, the contract will be considered fulfilled and an amendment would be drawn up, a deadline was given for her to accept and she was given the offer to purchase the albums at a later date as she can afford. If she chooses not to take the disc at it's discounted price, the package will remain as it and she'll get her albums next year when I'm more available. I would much rather her take the deal as I just know that the album design will be more, “change this, substitute that, etc. etc.” as it was a painful task just trying to get some album image selections from her; hence the reason of discounting the disc so heavily to increase the appeal.<br /> <br /> The watermark issue is not the biggest deal, however, it’s just one of those ‘things’ that continues to show what type of person she is and makes me think the deal I offered is doing exactly what Thomas said “<em>They will wheel and deal, stall, drag things out, until they get what they want. They don't care how long it takes. They expect you to give up”</em> <br /> <br /> Quite honestly, I was very firm in my email to her and was very careful not to put in emotion and was point blank in the offer. It was the returned email that almost had this ‘snarky’ type attitude with the CAPS lock emphasizing certain words and phrases almost making it feel like she was <em>owed</em> this deal in the first place, and the discovered FB photo that made me want to say “I’ve had it.”<br /> <br /> As far as it being <em>a personal issue between you and the bride</em> ; it never was. In all my emails to her I have been very professional and courteous explaining what I was and was not willing to do. Yes, I compromised on a few things but because I had initially wanted to have a happy client but when I have tried to be very “point blank” with her, she still found a way to quibble.<br /> <br /> My concern is that I want to deliver her products and be done with her and not have her come back in some way, shape, or form stating that I either took too long on the albums and hence wants a refund, or that I didn’t deliver the package fully, or heck knows what else she can come up with. I want to make sure my butt is covered and be able to walk away knowing that she can’t come back at me. But I don't think I can do that, if she doesn't agree to the deal and won't sign the amendment. <br /> <br /> So I want to know when and how to say “Enough”, this is what you get, take it or leave it without being in jeopardy of not fulfilling my contracted obligations. Is there some sort of clause I should have or should put in in the future so that this ‘wheeling and dealing’ won’t occur and if it does, can I ever put my foot down and be able to walk away cleanly?</p>

<p>And on another note, if she doesn't take the offer and wants the albums, can I just do them up <em>without</em> her input so I don't have to deal with more of this next year?</p>

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<p><strong><em>So I want to know when and how to say “Enough”, this is what you get, take it or leave it without being in jeopardy of not fulfilling my contracted obligations. </em></strong></p>

<p>I quit counting the number of times you've used the word, "email". Why haven't you <gasp> picked up the phone and talked to her? :) <br>

Honestly, I never will understand these email marathons some of you people post about.</p>

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<p>Heather, in the big scope of things you already lined up your priorities, and I certainly think they are the right ones. You, baby, kids, Christmas. This is just "another wedding" that in 20 years you will just remember better than some of the others. Thank heavens I kept this to two. Don't think for a minute that she doesn't already sense that you're under pressure with the baby coming and will probably "crack" and give in to her self-serving ways. I say, send her on her way as fast as you can, don't read her facebook and try to limit the damage. Best wishes to you and your new baby, keep a list of your priorities on the fridge and post some shots of your new baby for us!</p>
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<p>Sorry, I should add 'phone conversations' as I <em>have</em> had countless ones of those too. The last call was almost an hour long as she tried very heavily to get me to commit to price quotes on albums with XX number of pages, or albums with XX upgrade/downgrade or a disc with XX number or images vs XX number. It was a ton of back and forth.</p>

<p>Yes, it's dragged out. She didn't actually send me any of her image selections for her album until the actual deadline I gave her as to when I would be on Mat leave. That's when I called her (again) and told her this wasn't going to work now and we'd have to come up with something else so she'd be happy. Next came the "I'll see what option I can give you" and then I put that one on the table.</p>

<p>Honestly, I did the best I could in dealing with her, always thinking that "this time, she'll be content" but she never was. Some people just know how to manipulate conversations and emails and she's good at it. I'll give her that. Believe me, where I'm sitting right now is not where I had intended to be. So that's why I'm now asking for some advice on how to bring down the axe without chopping off my own head.</p>

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<p>It's clear to me (and others) that you need to cut and run on this one, as it will only worsen. It seems you have done your work and diving into album design with her would be akin to diving into the shallow end, more pain! I'd say enough is enough happened weeks or month's ago.</p>
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<p>So I stick with the offer and say 'it's final' but still if she says no then I am still obligated to the album design. Or is there any way for me to say, "No. That's the deal and the end of it."?<br>

What's my prevention of dealing with this in the future? Is there something I should instill in my contract or emphasize? and as an added people skill, how do you know when a Bride honestly only wants just <em>one or two</em> requests vs the Bride that has <em>one </em> and then <em>one</em> more plus the extra's?</p>

 

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<blockquote>

<p>So I want to know when and how to say “Enough”, this is what you get, take it or leave it without being in jeopardy of not fulfilling my contracted obligations.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You say that right at the start.</p>

<p>Every client wants to negotiate the price and the deliverable - that's only natural. But that doesn't mean you have to agree. A negotiation is based on understanding the needs of the client and then putting together the package to ensure it covers what has been asked. If the price is unaffordable to the client then your package contains too much, and you change what you're offering to ensure you can hit a price point that makes sense to them. But you don't offer the same package for less - that makes absolutely no sense. If the price remains unaffordable to the client after you've restructured your package then you've got the wrong client, and you should refer them to a supplier more suited to their budget.</p>

<p>If you do offer the same package for less then it means you don't understand how to price your work; your pricing will always be arbitrary and negotiable; you're no longer in control of your costs; and you've lost sight of the inherent value in your work. The moment these things happen you've stopped running a business.</p>

<p>That said, there could be other good reasons why you might want to offer the same package for less - for instance, if the opportunity value is significant in other ways, such as opening a new market to you, or connecting you with premier venues or vendors. If that's the case then you make a judgment call, and off-set the commercial value of the opportunity against any discount you offer. But it has to be an effective trade.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>how do you know when a Bride honestly only wants just <em>one or two</em> requests vs the Bride that has <em>one </em>and then <em>one</em> more plus the extras?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>By applying a cost to the change. Usually something along the lines of "album design includes revisions of X sides within the price; additional revisions will be priced at $YY per side". </p>

<p> </p>

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<p>Howdy!</p>

<p>Prepare an addendum that gives the bride full rights to the images, get the bride to sign it, and send her the images.</p>

<p>Any loss of whatever "copyright" benefits you may have had from the images will be more than compensated by peace of mind.</p>

<p>Later,</p>

<p>Paulsky</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>Heather, Honestly, your initial post is nine paragraphs long and your next response is eight. You're over-complicating this whole process, it's just not that complicated, set your boundaries and stick to them. Stop "fussing" over the small stuff, suggest that you give her the images on disk after she has signed off of the contract and be done with it.</p>
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<p>Everyone is suggesting that you end this ASAP because its a no brainer. I'll disagree only with RT about talking on the phone or negotiating a final price. No more negotiations. That will just make all this go on longer. Tell here she either accepts your last offer,<strong> as is</strong> and in writing, to modify the package by a stated deadline or it will lapse. If she accepts in writing (incl e-mail) that's what she gets. If the deadline lapses without an acceptance of the <strong>exact terms</strong> you set forth, she gets the original contract package.</p>

<p>End of story. No deviations. No extensions of time. No more discussions. As David said... Be done with it.</p>

<p>Don't engage in this kind stuff in the future either. Leave the personal feelings out of it and stick to your contract.</p>

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<p>After reading your posts, I get the feeling that you want retain control of your pictures. If you want to end this, I think it might work better if you resist the urge to press the copyright issue. I'm in Canada as well, and don't see how you'll ever enforce it. If I were you, I would give her the disc, realize that the bride will do what she wants with it, and move on.<br>

My 2cents</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>I wonder if it wouldn't help to have someone other than the photographer manage the business end of things, kinda like a Mr. Kruger (Norm's alter ego from Cheers) who doesn't put up with all of the b.s. that customers try to use to get more from the original deal for nothing.</p>
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<p>My apologies for being long-winded. I'm a habitual writer but I digress. Therefore:</p>

<ul>

<li>I wanted to know if I was on the right path with my final offer and it appears that I am.</li>

<li>I wanted to know how to say "Enough" even after giving a FINAL OFFER.<em></em> </li>

<li>I wanted to ensure I was still fulfilling my OWN side of the contract by changing it now.</li>

<li>I wanted to know how to prevent this kind of post-wedding drama.</li>

</ul>

<p>This may be a <em>no brainer</em> for most but I've only done a handful of weddings and dealt with a handful of Brides. In the future, I doubt I can inflate my wedding prices based on my own experience and skill, however, I'll figure something out to put in my contract and keep trying to figure things out as I meet up with new challenges.<br>

Thanks for your time. Enjoy your holidays!</p>

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<p>Heather, I'm with you on being concerned about the haggling and wanting to make certain the contact is fullfilled.<br>

So, if Canadian law and your previous contract allow an addendum:<br>

Rewrite thus "pursuant to conversations and emails dated >>...<<" This amendment to the previous contract between CLIENT and HEATHER JD PHOTOGRAPHY, shall name all deliverables as of 12/7/2009.<br>

This AGREEMENT to AMEND Contract shall be, upon signature, the final agreement to all deliverables between CLIENT and HEATHER JD PHOTOGRAPHY, no further modification or amendment will be permitted in any way regarding any and all images of the CLIENT's date/date/2009 wedding.<br>

signed...........HEATHER<br>

signed.............CLIENT<br>

Witness............<br>

date<br>

End of Final offers!<br>

Minus this, I have in my contracts a stipulation that states if deliverables are not decided upon within 12 months (or by agreed extension) I will submit deliverables on my own and the CLIENT has to be okay with that.<br>

I'm not trying to get over on anyone, take anyone's money for work not done, but I put a limit to clients being tardy on their responsibilities to their contract. Though I do allow extensions in some situations, I have a few international clients and it makes things difficult to order from abroad.<br>

Just do this in your off season.<br>

Game out every horrible challenge you can think of and how you will deal with it. If you have an idea of how to deal with a situation you will always have a plan A, plan B that's the challenge, though this is part of a successful business plan. All contingencies must be considered. and I mean ALL contingencies...</p>

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