What if...your classic camera was a stolen camera?

This strange question comes to my mind when I was in a camera repair shop yesterday. A man was 'expressing his

feeling' because his lovely camera was stolen in a cafe. I remember a news story about a stolen car found after

many years, like this one http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/17/national/main1216695.shtml

. Then this strange question comes into my mind.

 

We buy old cameras from fleak markets, websites, actions, etc...There are lots of old cameras trading activities

during these years. How to know whether the camera was a stolen camera in the past? It is hard for me to imagine

what would happen when the original owner regonize it. '

 

Kevin

I hope they run faster than I do if they want it back

 

but seriously, if I was in a situation where the camera I had was recognized as stolen by the owner then I'd give it back. If it was an expensive camera and it had been covered by insurance then maybe they wouldn't care. But if they had an emotional attachment to it then I'm sure things could be worked out. I don't think people carved their SNs into camera's anymore... what with identity theft, to go along with the camera theft.

 

One could also make records of serial numbers and such too, for identifying purposes. And if you don't buy your cameras of street corners then you'd be able to help give info in tracking down the people you got it from. I bet about 10% of all FILM cameras out there are probably hot. But that statistic is just a wild assed guess.

Caveat to the goody-two shoes approach above. What are the odds of someone actually recognizing and identifying their stolen camera, unless it's from someplace (like you stated: camera repair shop) where a volume of cameras move through.

I'd certainly give it back, if someone could prove it was theirs and had an appropriate police report to show it was really stolen. I don't agree with Al about the percentage that are hot, but who knows? I would have wild-ass-guessed 1 - 2%.

At least in Germany, many dealers of used equipment want to see your ID card and make notes about the person when buying used equipment for resale.

 

According to german law, it is not possible to obtain property rights on stolen goods, or, in other words, the stolen goods will remain property of the legal owner. When you buy such goods you have no claim for refund from the legal owner, you have to claim refund from the one who sold it to you.

 

Also, a dealer selling stolen equipment may be accused for selling stolen goods - even if he did not know it was stolen.

At least in Germany, many dealers of used equipment want to see your ID card and make notes about the person when buying used equipment for resale.

 

According to german law, it is not possible to obtain property rights on stolen goods, or, in other words, the stolen goods will remain property of the legal owner. When you buy such goods you have no claim for refund from the legal owner, you have to claim refund from the one who sold it to you.

 

Also, a dealer selling stolen equipment may be accused for selling stolen goods - even if he did not know it was stolen.

I once read that one third of all bicycles get stolen. Therefore one third of all bicycle riders must be thieves.

Charles, in Toronto Police arrested the owner of a bike store for involvement in the recycling of hundreds of stolen bykes. By recycling I mean the guy was selling stolen bykes or parts in his store; he was part of an organized gang.

If I would learn that any of the cameras I bought in thrift stores was stolen at some point I would return it. I keep record of all the serial numbers of my cameras and lenses as well as their provenance.

Some second hand goods stole in Hong Kong required the source provider to provide their ID, which similar to the policy in Germany. However, it is difficult to trace. A camera shop keeper tells me the provider's camera was brought form other countries' flea market during a trip or just a gift from a friend. The trace process is really unable to trace due to it involves too many owners.

 

I am thinking if I still have the right to correctly 'own' my classic cameras because the previous original owner(s) (excluding the seller who sell it to me) have dead. The factory record does not have my name...

Here in Italy when someone brings something to a seller for resale, the seller must demand a signed declaration of ownership, filled with ID number and other personal notes.

Here in the US you can be charged with possessing stolen goods even if you don't mean to resell them, and if you

cross state lines I think it compounds the crime. But I doubt anyone would really pursue those charges unless one

were adamant about being a complete jerk to the cops or if the cops want something else from you (i.e. the

location of

the hidden bodies, etc.). I think in any situation though, if you can prove that you had no idea that the items

were stolen or weren't involved in the stealing of them then you're safe from any criminal prosecution. But you

probably will lose a camera.

My approach is probably that of most of us who enjoy our classic cameras, and certainly concords with the general sentiments being expressed here. I know what it feels like to have had a camera stolen, and I'd return a stolen camera subject to the usual caveats of proof. I'd want to know if the loser had made an insurance claim, in which case I'd expect some re-imbursing, and moreover the camera would, strictly speaking, belong to the insurance company. I keep a listing, on a spreadsheet stored on a 'net server, of all my photo kit together with serial numbers and purchase/replacement values, where and when bought, and so on.

Stolen goods are stolen goods, it doesn't matter that you paid for it in good faith .... if it was reported stolen and can be identified and you are found to have it, you will lose it. If you paid for it and you give it back when the police ask you to, you won't be criminally liable, but you still lose it and whatever you paid for it. I have a friend who had this happen with a Leica M2 that he was rather fond of... turned out he didn't really own it, because somewhere in its past it had been stolen, and ultimately the rightful owner got it back.

 

That is the happy ending part of the story; my friend lost out but the camera's owner got his camera back. They don't all end that well....

Al : Yes, I think if you had no idea the goods were stolen, no criminal prosecution would result. I have no familiarity witht US law beyond imported TV drama series, but I imagine that such an ignorance would surely fail the 'mens rea' condition for a criminal offence. But as Rick remarks, stolen goods are stolen goods. I have a feeling, though I cannot point to a source other than a distant recollection of reading about it, that in English law, there are cases where in a 'good faith' purchase, title in stolen goods can pass to the buyer, but I can't remember the detail, other than that it was a particularly narrow situation. Regardless of that, the moral situation (and obligation) is perfectly clear.

I'd suggest that you keep a record of all your goods, including photography equipment, in some kind of spreadsheet or

other electronic means that you can store on line (such as mailing an attachment of it to yourself to your Web-based e-

mail account). Make a folder to keep the latest version in, and when you update it, mail it to yourself and delete the older

copy. But please, don't scratch Social Security numbers into your equipment. For one, it gives the thief something else

to steal from you. And it diminishes the value of your equipment if you ever decide to sell or trade it. Also, I'd suggest

that if you sell equipment on the Internet and post photos on the big auction site or elsewhere, blot out the

serial numbers with Photoshop. This prevents someone from filing a phony theft report and then a couple of days later

claiming, "My priceless Leica is being sold on eBay!" It's happened. Your ownership of it may be documented but having

to go through the process of proving it can be a pain.

Googledocs is a good place to store spreadsheets with inventories and the like. The suggestion to e-mail yourself

on your web-based e-mail is a good one, but I'd suggest avoiding accounts such as free Hotmail ones, where mail

may be automatically cleared out if the account is inactive for some time. I set up a Googlemail account with an

unusual name that I don't use publicly, and use that to store inventory lists, letter templates, that sort of

thing, on the Googledocs area. This means I can access them from anywhere, even if my main computer is damaged or

lost.

 

I'd also go along with the caveat on displaying serial numbers, or at least masking out the last four digits

(some buyers may want to know the serial number range as it can identify year of manufacture). Incidentally, the

serial number in a photograph can sometimes give information the seller didn't bank on. I once bought a classic

folder from a seller on eBay. After quite some time, it hadn't arrived, so I contacted him. He claimed he'd sent

it weeks earlier, and it must have been lost in the post, but it so happened that he'd another one in a similar

condition, which he'd acquired on a

recent trip to Germany, and he'd send me that if I preferrred to a refund. I agreed. Three days later the

replacement arrrived, with postmark the day after my query, and with a note asking me to return the original if

it should turn up. I thought the

'replacement' curiously similar to the eBay photos, and looked closely at the photos to see if any showed the

serial number on the lens mount. Curiously enough, one of them did, and I can tell you're ahead of me already...

It need hardly be added that the 'missing in the post' camera never turned up...

I bought a Canon A-1 off EBay that looked real well in the auction photos.But when it arrived I found that the ser.# had been scratched off, and the damage had been covered up with a felt pen.

First he said it wasn't the same camera that he sold me and that his was perfect when he mailed it.

I notified EB about the problem and I sent them pictures of it.

The seller agreed to refund my money on return of the camera. I told EB that I wanted my money back, plus 'all' shipping cost.

Ended up him sending me the auction price only. I sent it back to him COD and he refused delivery. About a month later I recieved a note in the mail that I had a package at the PO,so 10 bucks or so later I had the camera back.

Not end of story-----------------------

He emailed me saying he hadn't recieved the camera yet,I sent him a copy of the mail reciept. Then somewhatlater Ebay asked if I had returned the camera so I sent them a copy also.

It has been 4 or 5 years now and so far all is quite.

BTW--- I put a really crappy lens on it and donated it to a Thrift store.

Several years ago, one of my vintage Canon RF cameras, several of my vintage Canon LTM lenses, and some other items of photo equipment were stolen from my home. Fortunately, I had kept a list of my equipment, including the serial numbers of each of the items. I was able to provide this information to the local police, and at the suggestion of a local photo dealer, asked them to check with other local photo shops that sold used as well as new equipment. I also sent out e-mail messages listing my stolen equipment to some of the better-known Internet dealers of used equipment. The police found my camera and lenses in the display case of a photo shop located a few miles from my home. When purchasing the used equipment, the dealer had taken the precaution of asking to see the seller's driver's license, and had made a photocopy of it. The seller turned out to be an employee of a local home improvement contractor whom I had hired to do some work on my home. The police held on to the camera and lenses for use as evidence, but eventually returned them to me after the person who had taken them entered into a plea bargain resolving the criminal charges against him. After I got the equipment back, both the police and the local photo dealer who had assisted me told me that, in their experience, this was an unusual outcome, because most people whose photo equipment was stolen would never see it again. Although no charges were filed against the shop where my equipment was found, it later went out of business. Lessons learned? Keep a list of all your equipment, including the serial numbers of each camera body and lens, in some location different than where you keep your equipment. If your equipment gets stolen, try working with the police, even if that doesn't seem very promising at the time. Don't get your hopes up too high, because most stolen equipment is gone for good; but you might be one of those lucky enough to be pleasantly surprised. And one more thing: be careful when you pick a home improvement contractor.

When I was in the camera store business in Wisconsin, as CEO I personally had to have a pawnshop license. Once a week the pawn shop detail would take a carbon copy of all of my tradeins (which in my case were actually purchases), would examine that they were still there, and they had to be held for one month before they could be sold. If they turned out to be stolen, I had to give they back to the police. However, I did very tight records keeping and ID's, and in fact never had that problem.

 

However, one day a guy sold me his camera, legitimately, and left. Later he bought a gun in the same state, left the state and shot the governor of Alabama who was a paraplegic for the rest of his life. My records became part of the evidence that proved 1st degree attemped murder under federal law because it was interstate.

 

Lynn

Wow, Lynn, gonna be hard to top that story! (Odd, Bremer's name immediately popped into my head, along with where I was and what I was doing when I heard the news report - vacationing on Long Island.)