james_bibow1 Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 Let me give you guys the back ground on this. :( Shot a VERY attractive woman a few days ago. She explained to me ahead of time that she didnt photograph well, so I took it into account and shot extra film.. shot well exposed and arty- just my style. I emailed her the best 10 of the shoot, expecting her to be amazed, as were the few people that ive shown (photographers them selves) but one by one she hated each. Never for any flaw in the photograph, she just hated the way she looks THAT much... there was always something wrong with the way she looked..or what she was wearing ( she of course selected the clothes) I was rather shocked and out back by it- I of coruse offered her a full refund of the $80 she paid me as a downpayment- but she isists that I keep it, and asked for me to a reshoot...becasuse she now "knows " what she wants and doesnt want... I couldnt help but be offended...so what do I do folks? Do i cut my losses and move on? Or do i truck along and try to make her happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjtower Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 James, No reason to be offended and, in fact, you have reason NOT to be offended. Why? She is entering into a reshoot (or at least offering one), at her expense, not with some other photographer, but with you. This tells you she faults herself, not you or your skills. Whether you go around again is your choice. You will run across a certain number of people like this. If they want pics for a certain purpose, and are asked to wear a certain outfit, and pose in a certain manner, things often seem easier, as the major decisions are not left to an indecisive and, quite possibly, insecure person. If it is solely a question of wardrobe, you might be in a repeat performance - especially if she has 1000 outfits to chose from. If you do a reshoot, you might want to ask her to ask friends what could be improved. Not because you need advice from her friends, but because her friends just might point out the obvious: that she looks fine in the photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charles barcellona www.bl Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 First I'll include a line from my standard wedding contract, which is adaptable for portrait use. *** The Bride and Groom acknowledge that photography is both an Art and a Science, and release the photographer to practice artistic freedom while maintaining technical excellence. The Bride and Groom release the photographer from liability and damages, on any claim made on artistic grounds or merit. *** Having said that.... I have a few questions! Did you presell the portriat or was she going to select, from proofs, any that fit her needs? Is she, as a fussy person, worth it to satisfy in hopes she'll bring you more business, and to save your reputation? Normally, its best to presell the image or package, and get a non-refundable deposit on it. This would be enough to cover your materials, time and expenses. Of course to presell the package, you need to actually formulate some packages to sell.... I think I'd stick with her at least thru one more shoot and see what pans out. Can you shoot some poloroids to help with the situation, and provide immediacy to her approval? I cannot stress enough, that a written agreement, spelling out what is and what is not includeded, and is and is not expected from both parties, is essential to avoiding this sort of situation. Take a worst case scenario - you shoot a large wedding, with no artistic disclaimer or other arrangement, other than that the couple will select some images that you'll assemble into an album. Seeing the images, the bride says they're terrible (they're not). They're not what she expected (she wasn't clear in her explanation, or what she wanted was not feasable, etc). She now states... that she wants you to reshoot the wedding, assembling all wedding participants and characteristics at your expense. That scenario has been known to happen, and has been brought to court. I dont know of a case where the plaintiff has won, but their may be one. Even if she didn't win, consider the grief and loss of time. Better to have all in writing FIRST. Good luck - use your customer service skills on this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles stoddard Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 I understand and sympathize with the previous reply; yes, these situations arise and on a once-in-a-lifetime shoot like a wedding, you should have clear paperwork. But, were it me, I would shoot her again, AFTER she articulates what she found less-than-satisfactory in the first shoot. This will, at the very least, make her focus on what she really wants. I would avoid altogether any legal sort of talk, mostly because she is not complaining about you or your artistic or technical skills. You could also ask her to bring pictures of someone is a "pose" she hoped to duplicate - which would also make her think about what she wants. The fact that a beautiful woman told you, upfront, she didn't photograph well, tells you something. I would seek confirmation from other photographers or models who have seen the pics; derive guilt, if any, from their comments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan brewer Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 I did a portrait of a 23 yr old singer/actress who looks dynamite, beautiful face, beautiful body, simply stunning, somewhere in her past, someone made fun of her nose, from talking to her she a big emotional scar because of it. I wouldn't have noticed her nose unless she mentioned it and I still don't think it's as bad as she feels it is, it's kinda cute, like the rest of her. I shot all of her portraits straight on, butterfly over and under so no shadow, it was good work, but when I showed her the proofs, she looked drepressed even though I was telling her that she looked great. I told her that whatever she thought of her nose that I shot her front on and that nobody would be able to tell how big her nose was, and that I felt she was seeing something nobody else was going to see. She took the prints I made to her acting class, to her mother, to her friends, everbody thought she looked beautiful, nothing about the nose, and grudgingly she admitted that she had issues about her nose that nobody else had. Once I take a job, I promise to see it through regardless of whether it ends up costing me money, and I'll shoot until the client is satisfied, but emphasize to the client that we must meet and agree on wardrobe beforehand since I've had clients who said thay didn't like perfectly good shots because they changed their minds about the clothes they demanded that they wear in the shot. Don't be offended, and forget about the $80.00, you're now shooting for your reputation, but gently work for specific feedback about what she wants before you shoot. Always keep your sitting fees flexible, let the client know you want a certain fee if things go right, another fee if things get very involved, let them know this up front, and then you're not in the postion thinking you've lowballed them on fees. I've give a client a price range and explain why. With the situation as you've described it, at some point as a problem solver you're going to have to determine if there's a light at the end of tunnel, and/or whether the client will ever spot what she wants. Sounds like she has issues that don't have anything to do with your work, but you're still going to want to see it through. If you work this through, you still may never see her again as a client, or you may gain a client for life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_bibow1 Posted November 28, 2002 Author Share Posted November 28, 2002 Thanks everyone for youre thoughts so far. Heres what Ive done so far. Ive agreed to re shoot her on the following conditions, she: 1- Has to show 3 friend of hers the pics, and listen to thier opinions. 2- Email me or show me specfic examples of what she wants. Im also going to shoot this with poloroids first, so she can see the results, so I wont waste one single shot on her.. From what I can tell my compostion was dead on, just not her self esteem. It does feel awkward though Ill admit. Im not used to not having creative freedom. Even on the small amount of agency work ive done, the guidlines werent that strict. To answer the questions from above, the package that I sold to her was for $220 which gave her the choice of 25 proofs...and she could purchase additional prints. Im not sure if its worth it, but I do agree that my reputation is what Imworking for... and Ive learned alot already...thanks so much for youre inputs everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan brewer Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 OMT, I always remind myself that my idea of good work may be different from the clients idea, for most portraits I don't like using a lot of diffusion, a sort of smooth look is what I try for, so the portrait donsn't become a study on pores and pimples. I start out with this mindset especially if its for an actor/actress needing a b&w headshot or composite since they pretty much know the score, but on other clients with less experience regarding a portrait who don't need a headshot for casting directors I will do a couple of shots for the client that's not me. I shot a portrait for one lady who wanted it for family and friends, just a little diffusion, but nothing ponderous, I thought I had her just right but she was not satisfied until I showed her the two shots I had done with heavy diffusion,........'yes!!!! that's it,.....that's the shot!!!! was her reply on seeing these shots which I didn't like, but of course she did't think of them as 'schmoozing it up', to her they looked perfect. I always have to remind myself that it's what the client wants, not what you think looks good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier_de_lame Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 Hi James, Yes, sometimes a photograph must also be a psychologue ... :-). I would see this occasion as an opportunity: if you have time (and unfortunately time is money), working with her can lead to nice photos that SHE will like, even if they are in fact not as nice than the first ones. As said in a previous answer, it helps a lot to know why she does not like your proof: most probably it is something she does not like in HERSELF, perhaps she even does not know what. Regards, Olivier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografz Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 James, vanity is a tough part of doing portraits. It amazes me how some women see themselves, and how uncomfortable they are in their own skins. I once did a huge family portrait at the request of the 50ish mother. Shot the crap out of it both outdoors and indoors. I selected a half dozen shots where all the family members not only had their eyes open, but looked natural and happy. Instead, the client asked to see all the shots and selected one where she thought she looked the best, without any consideration as to how everyone else looked. Vanity even over Motherhood!!! It is also true that many VERY attractive women do not photograph well for real. Our ideals are set by New York and LA models who have an army of expert make-up artists and stylists laboring over them before frame one is shot. I wouldn't even think of shooting a commercial image without a make-up person there, especially if the subject is a beautiful woman that says she doesn't photograph well. Other than that , you can experiment with different lens draws and angles. Study her face closely. For example, if her eyes are amazing, but her nose a bit crooked, all she'll see in the proofs is her nose. Get up a bit above her to make more of her eyes and less of her nose. If you're shooting a full length shot and she is short waisted, stay a bit high...if long waisted and short legged, lower the cameras' center. It's all in the art of studying people...and NONE of them are perfect, not even Hidi Klume Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografz Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 Sorry, make that Heidi Klum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemastre Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 People who claim not to photograph well often are so inhibited before the camera that they project nothing, and of course they don't photograph well. Many times they simply haven't been shot enough to get used to how they look, and they may outgrow their fear if you can get them to sit for you two or three times. You are luckly in having a willing subject in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter brown - www.peterbro Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 <blockquote>Hi James, <p> The above posters have given some excellent advice and as a professional, people photographer for more years than I care to remember, here is mine. <p> <p> I have only ever encountered a similar problem once and this was resolved by my refunding the model her fee. <p> Your suggestion to your client, to show you some photos of images that she likes, can give you a much better idea of what she wants and this is also a solution I often use with people who may be unsure of the final images they want. Shooting polaroids as you go is also a good tool for getting feedback from your model during a shoot and this can tell you if you're both working towards the same end result. <p> Marc's suggestion to have a <b>photographic</b> makeup artist involved is good advice. Just using street makeup is not usually enough and photographic makeup artists should also know about lighting and how the results will translate to film. Having a hair and/or clothing stylist is also worthwhile if the budget will allow it. These people can give valuable advice and a good makeup artist can perform miracles. <p> Another old trick of portrait photographers has been to show the model the images reversed. The rationale behind this is that this is how a person sees themselves in a mirror and therefore are more familar with this image of themselves. Maybe worth a try with a difficult client. <p> If after your reshoot and having tried all the advice from the above posters the client is still not happy with the results, then perhaps she would be better off visiting a psychiatrist rather than a photographer. ;-) <p> Kind regards, <p> Peter Brown <p> <a href="http://www.peter-brown-photographer.com">http://www.peter-brown -photographer.com</a> </blockquote> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardcook Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 James, you are probably not having difficulty with the photography but with the imaging ;-) Most of us "see" ourselves differently than others "see" us and this discrepancy is not amenable to a dodge-and-burn or subtle lighting changes. The problem here is one of body image and you may actually be encountering something akin to the problem we see with anorectic teenagers -- as we used to see on television: "do not adjust your set, the problem occurs at the source". Plastic surgeons have this difficulty a lot -- many people wanting cosmetic surgery are, in fact, psychically unhappy at a rather deep level. Perhaps the problem is partly that you are not dealing with a professional model -- they are, in general, much more objective because they get so much negative feedback (probably the worst sort of job to have as it is based only on looks and those choosing the talent are only interested in skin-deep) when applying for jobs that they know quite a bit about how they look and how this is not about who they are. I suspect you will not be able to make her happy. This is almost certainly not about you or the technical issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne_crider4 Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 Interesting thread; Mostly because I half expected more responses that would tell you to quit now, and which were my own feelings at first, although I changed my mind after reading to the end. I think you did right to ask the woman to show the photographs to friends. My question is, will she, since she doesn't like her own reflection. Obviously she doesn't like her image, but I wonder what caused her to think she was not beautiful when as you stated she was. Does she have some sort of expectations resulting from exposure to an ideal that she doesn't fit into? Who knows, but it's a good learning experience for you, not so much from practicing your art as to dealing with subjects such as these. My experience of like nature was a simple head shot in which although I did a good job, she was unhappy as she thought she looked fat. I thought she was very attractive and wouldn't have minded dating her myself, but she saw what she saw and that was that. I've been waiting for 6 months for a reshoot and she's still not prepared. Depending on what your client wants, you might be prepared to offer an unusual prespective that detracts from what she believes to be her faults, or photographs that accentuate what she likes about herself such as her eyes, hair etc. If nothing works, makeup her eye's with brillant color, change her hair color in photoshop, and blow her skin out to white against a white background so she doesn't look like but a hint of herself. Maybe the less her recognition, the better off you'll be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas_diekwisch1 Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 I guess it's the good old ego game. Several posters above commented, in my view correctly, that the woman has trouble with her own self-image, which is not uncommon for anybody, BTW. My feeling is that it boils down to a psycho game. Your chance to succeed is directly correlated with relating to her mind. Convince her about something you like about her - her nose, her eyes, her ... you name it. Then tell her how beautiful she is with this example - I mean just don't focus on one part. In your mind, go to Italy, think about an Italian lover, watch opera: "benissima, bellissima, molto, suave..." Then, become this lover - at least for the time of the picture. And once more when you hand the print. Another trick that often helps is if you strategically plant a receptionist or another woman on her way out who can relate to her to convey the same message. Voila - there you are! Ah, the other aspect is, at least from my experience, that this type of person, we might call them the "narcistic" type, usually does not like the details of their appearance (emphasis on "details"). The younger you can make them look, the more ideal, the better. Even if it only faintly resembles their true self-image. And even though you might truly love how she looks like right now. The receipe are soft-focus filters, lenses, and vaseline - not what you think, but on an old UV filter. A Rodenstock Imagon does wonders. In this case, take off all the "Siebblenden". Think about the Hollywood photographers to the stars. There were the long lenses and open apertures, the soft focus, the black&white, and the glamour lighting. There was a reason these photographers were so successful. At least overall...not to say that starlets wouldn't rip their proofs in pieces! But I guess we can learn from their strategies. That's it. She'll love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd frederick Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 My apologies, but I did not have a chance to read all the previous comments. Imogen Cummingham expressed similar concerns when she said that the biggest problem with portrait photograph is that most people don't like themselves very much. It's a serious self esteem issue. That's not your problem. When she said that she doesn't photograph well, that's the clue to refuse the job. Don't do it! She want miracles, which no one can provide! She will NEVER be happy with anything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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