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What are workshops so expensive??


marc_felber1

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<p>It seems when ever you see a workshop being done with wildlife that want $1,000's of dollars to participate why are these workshop so expensive. What goes into these workshops that makes so expensive? Or are they just trying to take advantage of people. They even more expensive than any college course I ever took. With these prices so high, I rather teach myself using books and that's what I did since they wanted a boat load of money that I could use. They seem to price many people out of the market who don't earn much money and the way the economy is. Even some of the bird guides a charging a boat load of money in the range of $75 an hour. These people should get paid for their services, but to charge highway robbery prices into the $1,000 is like robbing a bank and some people barley have enough money to buy their gear let alone pay $1,000's for someone to teach them how to shot wildlife when there are books and videos and self teach methods they can teach to do the same thing without breaking the bank. You thoughts on why workshop prices are so high??</p>
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<p>"some people barley have enough money to buy their gear let alone pay $1,000's for someone to teach them how to shot wildlife"<br>

And there are lots of people who will pay $1,000's to have someone teach them. Bottom line is that it is supply and demand. If you can fill a workshop with 10 people at $1,000 a pop, or 20 people at $500 a head, which would you do? Less work for more money, right. There's your answer.</p>

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<p>also, if you have 1 instructor (the primary reason you went to the workshop), then having 20 people is totally unworkable. No one gets enough 'quality time' and everyone feels cheated including the instructor.</p>

<p>and then there are classes/workshops in all ranges from adult continuing ed to boutique-y multi-day hands-on small class w/ professional luminaries. How much should they be 'allowed' to make? 12 people class maybe 4 times per year @ 1500 each? Thats 72K per year before expenses and all the other taxes etc. Hardly living large even if you add additional income.</p>

<p>dont get me wrong, I'd love to take more classes and so but I accept that I need to pick and choose carefully or find a different way. If only someone would pay me like that for my expertise :)</p>

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<p>Marc: do yourself a favor, and start a business plan, laying out everything it would cost you to be in the quality workshop-giving business. Include all marketing, taxes, insurance, transportation, access fees, and the rest. Provide for the loss of revenue because of problems with a venue, or students who can't attend because of weather or travel trouble. Consider how many weeks go into preparing for such a thing, and how many times in a year you can actually make it all happen. Take away all of the overhead, from liability insurance to health care, and under-registration early in the game. Then take into account opportunity cost (the other things you're <em>not</em> doing, because you're doing that).<br /><br />How much would you have to charge a student, realistically, in order to make more than minimum wage? I think you'd be very, very surprised.</p>
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<p>Well, let's figure this out. What is a week of a professional photographer's time? It varies, but say he makes 100,000 a year (I don't know if that is too much for a pro with a name people recognize or too little). That's about $1900 for a week gross. Then you have to pay for his travel and his hotel, so add another $1500, and another $350 for food. Now we're up to $3750. Over 12 people you get $312 or so. Now studying with John Shaw or Galen Rowell (wish that were still possible) is worth something extra. It's possible there are other fees associated with bring a group into a park, then there might be car or van rental possibly? Renting a convention space to hold the critiques? But still $1400 or more for a week seems like a lot. That's why I've never gone on one, even though I was tempted.</p>

<p>But if most people felt that way then they couldn't sell the space and their prices would be cheaper.</p>

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<blockquote>

<p>They even more expensive than any college course I ever took.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I had college classes with 300 people in the same room. I never talked to the professor once during the entire course. For K-12 we always hear about how having smaller class sizes helps. A good photo workshop limits the number of people so that you get to talk to the teacher one on one.</p>

<p>Some of the photo workshops include food and lodging, others don't so be sure to factor that in when you look at the price.</p>

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<p>I can tell you that in the wedding industry we're getting many "$1000+" seminars by well respected photographers, however, they are for 2 days! The problem I have is that these are the same photogs that preach about sharing and networking and are the real "givers" in the industry. After shelling out the dough to these rock stars and you review the info, you'll find that the real nuggets could have been covered in 1 day. What you're really getting is inspiration to pursue your passion ala Tony Robbins. The technical info can be gained very cheap ie; forums, dvd's, meetup groups, etc.. Style can be developed over time. Don't get me wrong, there are some excellent photogs giving great info. I disagree with the principle of making up loss revenue due to economic conditions, on the wallets of your fellow colleagues and students...but they are "givers". </p>
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<p>Seeing, that nature and wildlife photography is some of the most difficult photography to master the price seems right to me. Which is why I photograph people, much easier. If you have a gifted knowledgeable and experienced instructor then the price seems maybe a little cheap. I guess it comes down to how much you value knowledge.</p>
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<p>There's something to be learned from someone who has had extensive experience in a certain field (in this case, photography). And the fact that you probably will get a closer hands-on experience with the instructor would definitely help in bringing out his insight. Something that a $20 course or even a well-written book *might* not deliver. How much would we probably pay for HCB or Ansel Adams or teaching us?<br>

Chances are, anyway, that the people who attend these workshops either a. primarily earn from their photography, or b. want to primarily earn from their photography. It's an investment for a lot of them.<br>

I can't afford a workshop, and won't probably attend one in the near future, but if I could get the chance (but not on wildlife, though) and the financial wherewithal to do so, I might.</p>

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<p>I've taken a couple of workshops, a one week intensive and another one night q week for 10 weeks kind of program. You get what you pay for. The classes I took were in the 700-2000 range and it was worth it! The insight you get, the experiences of the instructors, the knowledge they share, and the paths it opens up are invaluable. They courses were intense. I was working from 7am until midnight everyday on the courses stuff. My advice would be to find workshops that are reputable and intense, you'll get so much more out of it. Join a local camera club. Membership fees are usually low and you'll have the opportunity to learn from others and they'll have lectures where they have a local pro present, training seminars, field trips, etc. Photography is an expensive hobby.</p>
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<p>It is a business. Clowns for birthday parties probably earn more per hour than the take-home pay for photographers teaching workshops. Most of them rely on photography, not teaching, to support themselves. As others indicated above, businesses have lots of expenses if they are to be successful.</p>
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<p>The amount of planning, logistics, licenses, insurance, transportation (local), etc. is astounding. Especially when the workshop is in a foreign country. I agree that some workshops that take 40 people is unconscionable, the workshop organizer MUST make money. Workshops are personal training. You are paying for immediate logistics, but also for the vast experience brought to bear in the class. <br>
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<p>I learned this stuff on my own without giving these clowns $1,000's of my hard earned money taking perfect photos of wildlife. I did attend a workshop in Alaska and paid only $100 for a full day. If I would do this to teach someone. I would have them pay their own air and hotel and only charge them for my time at any place and country. I would charge by the hour. But limit to 4-6 people to take out. </p>
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<p>What would you charge by the hour, Marc? How would these people know to hire you? Would you have to spend anything on advertising, or to host and update a web site? Would you have to carry any sort of liability insurance while these people are under your care in the field? Would you also consider the title "clown" to be appropriate for yourself if someone else thought that your hourly rate was high?<br /><br />As for learning it on your own... what if someone who makes a decent living and has a full time job wants to get a bit more of a head start than that, perhaps in advance of going on a safari vacation? Have you considered that some people actually do associate a value with their time, charge others for what <em>they</em> do professionally, and don't really have a problem paying other professionals for what <em>they</em> do?<br /><br />I'm guessing you also do all your own legal work, plumbing, minor surgery, and cut your own hair?</p>
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<blockquote>

<p>I learned this stuff on my own without giving these clowns $1,000's of my hard earned money taking perfect photos of wildlife.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>And we can see these "perfect photos" ... where?</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I did attend a workshop in Alaska and paid only $100 for a full day. If I would do this to teach someone. I would have them pay their own air and hotel and only charge them for my time at any place and country. I would charge by the hour. But limit to 4-6 people to take out.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well then, why don't you let us all know when your workshop is ready for signups?</p>

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<p>Marc:</p>

<p>The easy approach is to figure out what your annual salary should be. Add in the overhead of having a business. Add in marketing and advertising. Divide by the number of billable hours. That's the hourly rate.</p>

<p>Let's say I want to make $40,000 a year. Doesn't seem to be that much to ask. General rule of thumb is that to net $40k, the business needs to make $80k plus expenses.</p>

<p>Some of the bigger names do a week's workshop every other month. Spend a week preparing for the workshop and another week at the end taking care of the details of the past week and catching up on the business end. That's now occupied three out of every eight weeks. You'll want to spend time processing your images, and then advertising and marketing, not to mention scouting locations. Spending one out of every eight working hours actually shooting seems about par for the course for photography.</p>

<p>Let's assume I can fill 6 workshops a year. I need to *net* about $13000 per workshop. Divide that by 8 participants. I need to net $1700 per participant. So I'd need $1700 *plus* expenses *plus* markup on those expenses. Depending on location, I could see that easily being $2500 per participant. And that's to get a salary of $40k a year. Doesn't include growing the business and having the business profit so I can invest in future growth.</p>

<p>Let's add more participants. If you get more than an 8:1 ratio, people are going to balk. Now, you need to add more staff to keep the ratio down. That'll drive your expenses up.</p>

<p>That's a lot of work for $40k a year. There are far less risky ways of earning $40k/yr.</p>

<p>Eric</p>

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<p>Hello Marc,<br>

I currently teach workshops around the southwest. I do just about everything myself to keep the costs as affordable as possible. a lot of work does go into a workshop, but besides the marketing, planning,accommodations, transportation, permits, insurance and many other things, there is the research into the areas that are going to be visited and putting together the actual intinerary and getting it to flow correctly so that the person attending the workshop has a quality experience. I absolutely love what I do, I am going into my fifth year now I would not trade it for anything. I get a huge amount of satisfaction from doing my best to give the best experience I can, but when one of these things is over i am absolutely exhausted. There's work a couple of days ahead of the workshop and then during the workshop it's sunrise till sunset making sure everything is going to plan as best as possible then when you get home you have a day or so to get everything reset to be ready to do another. Another thing if you pick the correct workshop, you will learn a lot of information that can definately put you on a path to becoming a better photographer faster than working without instruction. I wish I had taken oen or two good workshops when I was on the green end of this, I wouldn't have stumbled around wondering what I was doing wrong for as long.<br>

Ian<br>

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<p>Is better to return to places you been and know about to save time and planning. So countries don't require insurance if the business is based in their country since there is no rule of law. Such as third world countries. I don't even know if some of the tour guides in third world countries even carry insurance that's why they tell you to buy travel insurance to cover the traveler . </p>

<p>Marc</p>

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