Want to take image, white balance, exposure of series...

Discussion in 'Digital Darkroom' started by richard_dulkin, May 10, 2016.

  1. and then batch process it to all the images of a series. Since I use a studio for all work, lighting is basically the same with same color temperature with Paul C. Buff Einsteins. Let's say I have 900 images from a shoot. I correct the first image white balance (that maybe off for all) and I correct the white balance and the exposure only. Now that I have that image, I want to reference this image to the rest of the 899 uncorrected images and correct them in a batch process. This saves me a lot of work each time. Don't tell me I could do it all in camera raw as it is not as accurate as it is in Photoshop CS6. Unless there is a way of referencing this image back from Photoshop to ACR. What would be the best solution: Is to be reference back from Photoshop to the camera, but I can't figure out how to do this.
    Thanks, Richard
     
  2. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Don't tell me I could do it all in camera raw as it is not as accurate as it is in Photoshop CS6.​
    Has nothing to do with accuracy (that's a BS term* used far too often on the web when it has nothing to do with accuracy) and everything to do with the degree of control altering WB from raw vs. a rendered image where the WB is baked. Further, the job would take a mere seconds or three IF you did this in Lightroom (copy and paste settings from image 1 to the other 899).
    * Delta-E and color accuracy
    In this 7 minute video I'll cover: What is Delta-E and how we use it to evaluate color differences. Color Accuracy: what it really means, how we measure it using ColorThink Pro and BableColor CT&A. This is an edited subset of a video covering RGB working spaces from raw data (sRGB urban legend Part 1).
    Low Rez: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy0BD5aRV9s&feature=youtu.be
    High Rez: http://digitaldog.net/files/Delta-E%20and%20Color%20Accuracy%20Video.mp4
     
  3. This kind of batch processing is actually exactly the kind of thing that programs as Lightroom and CaptureOne do great. Edit one photo, copy the edits you want to clone, select all the others and off you go.
     
  4. Use Lightroom in the Develop mode. Select the image(s) you wish to adjust. Adjust the first image of the set then press Sync to copy those adjustments to the other images. This will open a dialogue box in which you can specify which parameters you wish to synchronize. Nearly everything you can change using Lightroom can be synchronized. All of these adjustments are non-destructive, and can be easily reset or changed, regardless of the file type. You can make the changes permanent only by exporting (copying) them to new files.
    Although Lightroom makes use of ACR algorithms, it is much more sophisticated, nearly as powerful as Photoshop. All changes in Photoshop are permanent once saved and closed unless you use adjustment layers. Batch operations usually require you to write a script. Think "PITA."
    Even if you don't have 900 images to change at once, Develop Sync is a very useful function. When shooting an event, like a wedding, you find images tend to fall into groups which require similar adjustments. As a corollary, that's why it's more important to be consistent than "correct" in a shoot. For formal groups at a wedding, for example, I put the camera into full manual mode so that minor changes in the subject, e.g., more or less white clothing, don't affect the exposure or white balance.
     
  5. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    ACR syncs multiple edits too but I think it would barf if one tried to do this on 899 images. LR is the perfect toolset for this kind of work.
     
  6. Have a read on the Buff Einsteins with regard to controlling white balance...
    http://www.paulcbuff-techforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4712
    I hope you're shooting in Raw and not jpeg. If jpeg, you're in for a lot of work both in Photoshop and ACR/LR if you don't control your lighting for consistency.
     
  7. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Have a read on the Buff Einsteins with regard to controlling white balance...​
    On top of what he said; CCT values define a range, not a specific color.
    D50 is a specific description of the color of white, 5000K is a range of possible colors.
    As he points out, differing raw converters will produce differing values so YMMV, another reason why a specific value isn't at all important. Just change a DNG camera profile in LR and the As Shot value can change with it! The only way to really get a handle on the numbers is to measure the Lightsource with something like an X-rite i1Pro Spectrophotometer and something like BableColor which is expensive ($2K) but cheap compared to other tools.
    In the end, the WB numbers are not really important, the color appearance is.
     
  8. The appearance of WB is what the OP is wanting to achieve with one image and apply to the rest of the 899 images. He's indicating that he can't get the appearance consistently applied to the rest which suggests the light source's WB he's shooting under is changing shot to shot which is what that linked discussion is pointing out along with the necessity for shooting Raw, not jpeg. We still don't know for sure if the OP of this thread is shooting Raw.
    The OP isn't concerned about CCT/Kelvin numbers, he's trying to get consistency in a appearance of WB and is convinced it can be done more easily in Photoshop over the Raw converter which suggests he's shooting jpeg.
    But by all means, Andrew, help the OP out by explaining all the science behind color temperature accuracy even though he's asking for post processing tips for turnkey process of studio shots.
     
  9. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    He's indicating that he can't get the appearance consistently applied to the rest which suggests the light source's WB he's shooting under is changing image to image which is what that linked discussion is pointing out along with shooting Raw, not jpeg.​
    Is he? Here's what I read:
    I correct the first image white balance (that maybe off for all) and I correct the white balance and the exposure only. Now that I have that image, I want to reference this image to the rest of the 899 uncorrected images and correct them in a batch process.
    There's no indication to me he's having any issue other than fixing the other 899 images as quick as possible.
    But by all means, Andrew, help the OP out by explaining all the science behind color temperature accuracy eve though he's asking for post processing tips for turnkey process of studio shots.​
    I did. Here and via a private message he sent me. Based on our conversation Tim, I think I have a pretty good idea of what he's trying to accomplish but thanks again for your support as usual....
    By all means Tim, speculate that the OP can't produce a desired color appearance despite what he specifically wrote in public (let alone our private conversation).
    Now maybe some of us can get back to the task of aiding him.
     
  10. It's his lights he's using, Andrew. I'm not going to get into one of your loopy arguments over color science, again. I'm trying to help the guy.
    I just rattled off a turnkey process of my bathroom vanity lit by Walmart Daylight LED with my camera set to Daylight shooting Raw. I clicked on the white toothbrush, saved to XMP and applied to the rest. Finished within a minute. Didn't mess with exposure but went ahead and applied +80 which didn't affect the color balance.
    00dvkB-562929384.jpg
     
  11. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    It's his lights he's using, Andrew.​
    Really? Do you know specifically what light he's using? I do; he told me.
    I'm not going to get into one of your loopy arguments over color science, again. I'm trying to help the guy.​
    I know you think you are Tim. Actually you're just being repetitive! The solution to his problem was posted long before you arrived here. You reading the posts here backwards? Or not reading the posts above at all?
    I just rattled off a turnkey process of my bathroom vanity lit by Walmart Daylight LED with my camera set to Daylight shooting Raw.​
    Lovely shot Tim, but utterly pointless.
    The OP's not using lighting anything like you're using (I know, he told me).
    I clicked on the white toothbrush, saved to XMP and applied to the rest. Finished within a minute.​
    You obviously again missed the salient point already expressed long before you got here, from me, 2nd post!
    Further, the job would take a mere seconds or three IF you did this in Lightroom (copy and paste settings from image 1 to the other 899).
    Took you a minute Tim? What took you so long?
     
  12. This discussion is way over the top and down the backside!
    I have a Nikon d750, 2 x 700, and a d90. All of them have a custom white balance target setting graph. I have already determined the basic exposure to f/8 for the main and f/5 for the fill at ISO 100. That was easy. I don't have a color meter so I had to get creative. I thought I would take a few images and take them into PS6 and fix one of them. Once I had that image I tried to figure a way to take it back to the camera with the information from the image corrected in photoshop. Could not figure it out. If some know how to do that please tell me. If that can't be done, then the next best thing is to have that corrected image as the source for the white balance into a batch automation (script or action) so I can have a faster, easier, wonderful solution to correcting all the images (could be 700 to 1500 images) from the same shoot (Even though I could be using 4 cameras and 6 lenses for the single shoot.
    I do not want to use Lightroom (I have it but don't want a different workflow that that would add to). I sleep at night and could have Photoshop doing everything for me while I was in dreamland.
    00dvkO-562929684.jpg
     
  13. Once I had that image I tried to figure a way to take it back to the camera with the information from the image corrected in photoshop. Could not figure it out.If some know how to do that please tell me.​

    Have you tried Match Color in Photoshop?... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vtbtmzno8s
    Other than that, shoot Raw.
     
  14. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Other than that, shoot Raw.​
    Where do you see Richard isn'tshooting raw? He stated he's using ACR in the very first post (and to me in our email:
    My work flow is ACR to PS6)!
    Richard, have you tried syncing using ACR/Bridge rather than LR?
    http://www.adobepress.com/articles/article.asp?p=1655224
    Using Bridge CS5, decide on the photos you’d like to edit together, select their thumbnails in the Content panel, and right-click to view the context menu. Choose Open in Camera Raw; this will open all of the images into ACR at the same time.
    I would NOT attempt to do this on 899 images, at least not initially anything close to that.
     
  15. I do not want to use Lightroom (I have it but don't want a different workflow that that would add to).​
    Nice try, Andrew. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

    Sleep well, Richard.
     
  16. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Nice try, Andrew. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.​
    He can do the same in ACR but as I wrote long ago, I suspect it would barf on 899 images. It might not; I'm not going to try <g>. But even 200 at a time? Again, the OP told me he's using ACR: My work flow is ACR to PS6.
     
  17. You can do it with ACR/Bridge if you wanted without any issue. Recent versions of ACR allow you to use a database to store the adjustments instead of creating xmp files. Just go to camera raw preferences and select "Save image settings in: Camera Raw Database"
    I just tried for fun with 700 images from a D800, all at once, and the adjustment took only seconds, while the update of the previews took a few minutes.

    Bridge, ACR, LR and even Capture 1 use the same database SQLite, (Yes, part of the Bridge Cache is a SQLite database) and 900 is a really low number of transactions for a database.
    LR is perhaps the most ambitious implementation that I know for SQLite in terms of the schema (tables and fields) and its main difference with other programs is the library implementation, not the database itself, because almost any other program use a database too.

    One comment about copying white balance in LR: If you copy the settings from an image where the WB is "As shoot", then it will copy "As shoot" and not the temperature / tint values. Maybe this is obvious to everybody else but it was not obvious to me.
     
  18. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    One comment about copying white balance in LR: If you copy the settings from an image where the WB is "As shoot", then it will copy "As shoot" and not the temperature / tint values. Maybe this is obvious to everybody else but it was not obvious to me.​
    That may be an 'issue' with Relative vs. Absolute adjustments. Not sure how ACR handles this compared to LR. Depending on where you apply a pasted edit in LR, you get two quite different results!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etDVWkwAbe8
    So does ACR use Relative or Absolute and would this be an advantage to the OP to use LR instead?
     
  19. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Appears to me that syncing multiple images in ACR uses Absolute which may or may not be a good solution for the OP depending on his needs. Since he's using multiple cameras, Relative might be a better option. If his goal is identical CCT values (and I explained despite Tim's rants that this may not be a good move), Absolute will do this. But if his goal isn't identical numbers but a closer color appearance, Relative might be a better option. Then it's back to the horse drinking from the Lightroom well.
     
  20. Where do you see Richard isn'tshooting raw? He stated he's using ACR in the very first post (and to me in our email:
    My work flow is ACR to PS6)!​
    That's great! Well if you two are talking to each other outside this thread exchange then you are his official consultant on this matter. You are the expert and I will bow out. Hope you solve his problem. It's nice working for free, isn't it?
     
  21. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Well if you two are talking to each other outside this thread exchange then you are his official consultant on this matter.​
    No, he just knows who to ask.
    You are the expert and I will bow out.​
    That's fine with me. Perhaps other's too?
    It's nice working for free, isn't it?​
    I do it all the time Tim. I'm not here to make a profit but aid other members. You?
    Doing things for others always pays dividends... -Claude M. Bristol
     
  22. Hi Richard I agree with your assesment of this discussion but disagree with your workflow.

    I am currently finishing a three day shoot where we will likely end up with approximately 4,500 portraits of roughly 300-350 people, of a truly global mix of skintones,

    The key light is a single Paul C. Buff, Inc. Einstein E640 (in constant color mode) in a Medium Chimera SuperPRO lightbank and the fill card is a collapsible silver skinned Lastolite reflector. The white background is lit by two more Einsteins, each in a black backed 38" umbrella, one to the left and one to the right of the background. I am slightly adjusting the position, angle, and height of the key light and the fill reflector to suit the individual's face.

    Here is my processing workflow

    Each day the first shot is of my assistant holding an Xrite ColorChecker Passport (the 24-patch target) and a WhiBal gray
    balance target to make sure the exposure matches the previous day.

    After importing into Lightroom (CC2015 version to be precise) I gather all of the portraits into a single collection, select
    them all but open the image with the WhiBal and ColorChecker. I next set Clarity and Vibrance and chose the Camera
    Profile that gives me the overall best color, and then set white balance using the white balance eyedropper on the WhiBal
    Target. I then apply (by sync) these develop settings to all of the images and go get a cup of coffee. I end up with
    pleasing skintones on everyone and most importantly the overall color balance matches from tge first ro the final shot
    across all three days of portrait sessions.

    I hope this helps you.
     
  23. Andrew, I'm sure you'll let us know in this thread how you solved OP's problem so others reading or lurking will benefit.
     
  24. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Andrew, I'm sure you'll let us know in this thread how you solved OP's problem so others reading or lurking will benefit.​
    You still here?
    This is yet another reason why it's difficult to take some of your text seriously. After all, you did write: I will bow out.
     
  25. Ellis, have you found that procedure works on a series of Raw images captured across several different cameras? The OP's workflow keeps getting more diverse and complicated the more he seems to be divulging to Andrew through emails according to this quote...
    Since he's using multiple cameras, Relative might be a better option.​
     
  26. You still here?
    This is yet another reason why it's difficult to take some of your text seriously. After all, you did write: I will bow out.​
    I said I'ld bow out giving advice since I and others here aren't getting all the information you are privy to through your email exchanges with Richard. I didn't say I wouldn't ask questions. Besides I like seeing how "prickish" you come across online. It's so different from how you are in your YouTube videos.
     
  27. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    What you wrote Tim, exactly was: You are the expert and I will bow out.​
    I agree with the first part, expected the 2nd. That's what one gets, expecting you to be good to your word.
    Besides I like seeing how "prickish" you come across online​
    Just the opposite of prickish, nothing pleases me more than making you look silly.
    "Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something". -Plato
     
  28. Tim, don't bow out. I want advice on information for change of WB back to camera FIRST. If not, automated batch in PHOTOSHOP next. I get a repeatable value that way. If that can be referenced back to BRIDGE would also work. If that can be referenced back to LIGHTROOM, and I can use the lightroom image information back to PHOTO SHOP, I can live with that.
    As to four cameras, the d750 is the prime camera, 2 x d700 are for 1) in your face tight portraits, and 2) wide wide angles. The d90 was for overhead shots. Each of these different SD cards ARE processed to individual folders and therefore can be referenced back separately. This needs only the same grey card + color/grey scale for each camera body/lens combination, and I will have the different information in each file for each combination. (see picture I posed of chair with grey card etc.).
    That is why I can program the basic info for each combination separately and therefore unique to each camera lens combination.
    Richard
     
  29. You will be better off creating a custom camera profile for each camera using the ColorChecker Passport system, for use
    in either ACR or Lightroom, and then shooting the same WhiBal (or similar) reference target with each camera. Creating
    a custom profile for each camera will (within the limits of the camera) will balance the color response of each of the four
    cameras. Merely doing a custom WB setting in each camera does not do that.
     
  30. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    Richard. You stated here and elsewhere you were using ACR and CS5. The assumption therefore is you are capturing raw data. If that is not the case, we need to know. Otherwise, the facts are this:
    Raw has no WB whatsoever. It's raw. You can set any WB value on the camera and it doesn't affect the raw data at all. You can and should set WB when rendering this raw data. Rendering is the part where ACR produces the TIFF, JPEG, PSD from the raw plus the instructions you ask for, in ACR, prior to selecting "Open".
    You can set any value ACR allows for WB at any time on the raw. Once the image is rendered, the toothpaste is out of the tube! You've baked that WB into the data. It's darn near impossible to change this! That means the edits you apply after rendering affect the data, the color and the results quite differently than when you specify WB with the raw! That's a critical point. Yes, you could attempt something like "Match Color" afterwards in PS but it isn't going to produce the same results visually, numerically to the rendered data as it would IN the raw converter. Let alone all the time it would take to open 899 TIFFs, full rez, apply the edit that will not look so good and save that data. That's pointless in two respects: the quality and options you have to set WB and the huge time it takes to do so. So again, this has nothing to do with accuracy in terms of using ACR. It has everything to do with options and speed! The time and place to set WB is on the raw data, in your case, in ACR.
    The WB numbers you see are initially meaningless! I explained why before Tim's rant. You could see a "As shot" for camera A that's different for camera B. Even if you shoot the same scene! You can toggle the DNG camera profile and, the WB values can change! The As Shot value is simply a suggestion. The camera isn't a tool that can correctly define CCT values and again, the values vary.
    What you need to do is setup your studio with something like a Macbeth color checker or similar reference target. Shoot it with your stobes with each camera body. You ideally want optimal exposure for raw as like setting WB, it's not something to 'fix' in Photoshop. Ellis has provided very sound advise and adds info on custom camera profiles which is very useful.
    You need to then use maybe the WB eyedropper and set it to produce a result you desire. It may or may not be neutral, that's subjective. You could just tweak the Temp and Tint sliders. You may very well see different results from the various camera bodies too. At some point, you'll want to create a preset of the WB for each camera. IF you're really lucky and the stars align, each camera will have the same setting but don't bet on it. IF that's the case, and you wish to batch process the presets in ACR, it's critical you examine the differences between applying a relative vs. an absolute sync settings! View the URL I provided by Julienne Kost. IF absolute application doesn't work for you on all images, you'll have to either do the batch sync of WB per camera body OR look into using Lightroom which CAN produce a relative adjustment to all the images.
    IF you don't believe that WB should be set in the raw processor, do this test:
    Set your camera to shot a raw + JPEG and set the WB to Daylight. Shoot inside under tungsten. Examine the awful yellow appearing JPEGs. Try fixing that in Photoshop let alone matching the 'fix' if you can, using Match Colors. With the raw, one click, or a few tweaks of the Temp slider, you've got the WB you desire. Because it's raw data AND because you applied the WB to that data when it was raw! You can't do this with a baked, rendered image.
     
  31. Yes shooting RAW.
    I was trained in photography when there wasn't a computer yet. And worked in color dye transfer labs and remember how difficult it was to get color on paper to a perfect state. But I remember the color correction filters I used to use in bright sunlight, light overcast, to shade with Daylight Kodachrome. Those allowed me to tweak the results in camera so the image would be correct. My filter did the trick.
    Now in digital, I want that same tweak that those filters gave me. That's all, but this time from the corrected image to the camera or two the automated batch conversion.
    Thanks for your help,
    Richard
     
  32. Ellis, that is exactly what I plan on doing for each camer/lens. But first I have to know how to transfer it to 1) the camera, 2) and automated batch process. I have separated each of the files for each of the camera/lens/situation; so then the model holds up my gray card+color card at the start of each group then I can know that I need how I should change in camera/lens etc. to be right on for not only exposure (which I have) and value for White Balance that I need to correct.
     
  33. digitaldog

    digitaldog Andrew Rodney

    I was trained in photography when there wasn't a computer yet.​
    So was I.
    Now in digital, I want that same tweak that those filters gave me.​
    You can filter your lights, your lens but the raw data is the raw data and still has to be rendered. It's not really a color image (yet); think of it more like a grayscale file.
    http://www.digitaldog.net/files/raw.jpg[​IMG]
    Think of the raw like three B&W images. A tri-color process if you will.
    The bottom line is, you should be doing this on raw data, not rendered data afterwards. For both speed and flexibility in producing the results you desire. There really is nothing to tweak in the camera for WB for raw. You CAN filter your lights so they all match; useful. You could filter the various lens and camera bodies too but for WB, you just need to dial in a value, a number, for the WB rendering.
     
  34. But I remember the color correction filters I used to use in bright sunlight, light overcast, to shade with Daylight Kodachrome. Those allowed me to tweak the results in camera so the image would be correct. My filter did the trick​
    Trying to match different digital cameras would be like using in the film days Fuji Velvia, Kodachrome and Kodak Portra and pretending matching results
     
  35. "Ellis, that is exactly what I plan on doing for each camer/lens.

    But first I have to know how to transfer it to

    1) the camera"

    That isn't going to happen unless you want to write all new code for each's umage processing engine that will allow for
    that. On top of that I dont think you need to do that because creating custom presets in Lightroom that incorporates
    acustom camera profile, white balance setting, along with all other Develop module settingsis very straightforward and
    can be applied when importing from each specific camera.


    " 2) and automated batch process. I have separated each of the files for each of the camera/lens/situation; so then the
    model holds up my gray card+color card at the start of each group then I can know that I need how I should change in
    camera/lens etc. to be right on for not only exposure (which I have) and value for White Balance that I need to correct."

    As i wrote, once you create a custom preset it can be applied to a batch of images. Either during the import process or
    once they are in your Lightroom catalog and library.
     

Share This Page

1111