karl_borowski Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Hey everyone. THis is kind of a continuation to a thread I posted earlier about suitable supplies for a pre-Pearl Harbor's Day reenactment I am doing. I wanted to expound upon my wish to do everything in a vintage manner; I hate digital photography. I bought my own lab so I wouldn't have to deal with 300 dpi prints, so therefore I'd never shoot it to begin with, as I don't own one of the cameras, but I want to go fevery detail as nearly as possible to what it was like back then. Socks, underwear, and film even I want to be what they had back then. Does anyone want to further expound upon either how insane I am or how compulsive this idea is? ;-) Anyway, I would like to know if anyone knows of specific emulsions that are unchanged or changed very little since then> I obviously cannot get nitrate bases or flashbulbs actually manufactured at that time, but I know I can get flashbulbs that are identical to those of the time and film that has gone very nearly unchanged since then> I really hate Kodak and it's decision to stop B&W paper, and they've changed all the emulsions even if the names "Plus-X" and "Tri-X" are still with us, so I'm looking for something European maybe. Has ADOX been around since before WWII? I believe I've seen their film somewhere. Any others? Regards, ~Karl P.S. ANyone know where I can rent a vintage car? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_b.1 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Probably the Efke films...asa 25 or 50...will be the most like what was made at that time. They are available at JandC. Also, don't gloss over good ol' Kodachrome 64. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john lehman, college alask Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 While Adox has made film since the 1860's, the current Adox (Efke) films were introduced in 1952. That is probably about as close as you can get unless there are older-style Russian films available (possibly old Zeisss emulsions confiscated in 1945, but that is highly speculative). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan flanders Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 It never ceases to amaze that with all the real time tragedy going on in the world today anyone would wish to re-enact an outrage that occurred more than a half century ago! It would have been ridiculous to re-enact the battle of Gettysburg while WW2 was demanding all our nation's resources, and equally so to re-enact WW2 events while WW3 is in its beginnings. Rather we should focus all resources attempting to solve current problems that can and may destroy civilization as we know it - - - Get real! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Gettysburg was a German POW camp during WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 The couple of Germans who escaped were caught at Pickett's Charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_mckeith Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Karl- I have one roll of Ansco Plenachrome left- 120(1946).I shot one roll ,and it's really in pretty good shape.Base fog was minimal,contrast was a little low,which might have been my fault.It's ortho,so I developed by inspection which I had not done before,so I might have pulled it too soon. If you want to give it a shot,just to add to the insanity---ping me with your addy,and I'll drop it in the mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_van_Nooij Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I'm staying out of the re-enactment/living history is good/bad discussion...(Though I'm leaving for Normandy tomorrow morning for the Back to the Bocage tour with 160 others, so you can guess my position on the whole deal) Karl, if you do find proper film, but the packaging is not to your liking, there are printable labels/boxes available online. Just look for reproduction paperwork. A few of the living history guys have recreated a lot of official war-time documents and packaging material that you can buy or print out yourself. I've got a few PDF-files to reproduce Kodak film boxes. I'm not at my home computer at the moment though. Good luck, Rick p.s. I'm taking my Argus C-3, Kodak Retina II and Zeiss Ikon Nettar with me in Normandy, and enough film for 300+ photos. I'll be sure to post a few here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 German immigrants were about 10% of the Union forces during Civil War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Union General Carl Schurz, who was born in Germany , with the 26th Wisconsin, was at Pickets charge in 1863. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winfried_buechsenschuetz1 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Agfa Isopan F was still manufactured in the 1970s, but I don't know whether it was the same emulsion sold with this designator in the 1940s. Also, probably not many german films were sold in US in the 1940s... I think it would be the best to check for images of old film boxes and print a template, then fold your own box. Concerning the films I agree that the Efke films will come pretty close. Processed in an old-style developer, like R9 made by Calbe of Germany (said to be made according to the pre-war formula of Rodinal) should yield nice results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charles_stobbs3 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I remember buying Gevaert film in the early 40's because it was the only supplier of 00 size film fo a Univex camera I owned ($0.19 for the camera, in those days). I just googled Gevaert and saw a package was sold on EBay last week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 You Hate digital. You HATE Kodak. Not really insane, but you've got problems, fellow. Get help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Gammill Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 You could try some J&C Classic Pan 200, Fortepan 200, or Berger BRF 200. I've heard these emulsions have a look similar to Kodak's old Super XX film. I've tried these films and they are grainy, but since I don't have any Super XX to compare them too, I could say whether or not these films really resemble it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gib Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Kelly I thought the percentage of Germans in the Union Army was even higher than that. I have been reading a Lincoln biography and the campaign considerations prior to his election and conflicting demands of abolitionists, immigrants and the Know Nothings (who wanted to lengthen the time it took for immigrants like the Germans to become citizens)... Republican Party was a real swirling mass of factions at the time it was born. A few years ago I witnessed a war of 1812 reenactment, lots of musket firing, and "wounded". It was very strange. I havent been to another. I think if I was to go to one it would be a non-warfare type, perhaps like the Spring Rendezvous, Mountain Men gathering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan flanders Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Having participated in the real thing and seen horrors no one should be subjected to it is difficult to see why anyone would wish to re-enact scenes that they cannot truly replicate and if they could it would be more horrendous than the first occurence. Yes, we can learn from the errors of the past, but it is folly to "harmlessly (?)" replay the scenario. Better study to cope with those horrors that are portending. -- Portending, hell -- they are already in progress! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan c. Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Efke (Croatian) films are now being sold by JandC under the ADOX name. part of a re- branding / marketing realignment, but it's the same old film, in speeds ASA 25, 50, and 100, and in 35mm, 120, and sheet film formats. Both Efke and Adox at one time or another were part of Agfa, i believe. in any case the emulsions have an Agfa history. i have used this film (in all speeds) with nice results. but, frankly, a roll of modern Plus-X or Tri-X shot through a 1940 era lens like a Zeiss Sonnar or Leica Summar will look more "vintage and authentic" than a roll of Efke/Adox shot through a modern lens. Of course you can shoot your vintage style film through a vintage lens. It's just that the lens is a bigger part of the equation than the film stock emulsion. Tri-X wasn't introduced until the 1950s anyway, originally at ASA 200. but the "Double-XX" movie film, which you can buy and roll your own 35mm film from, is another Kodak film with a long heritage. Nobody was making nitrate film by the Second World War. "Safety" film came in during the 1930s. Getting flashbulbs is easy enough. As for paper, the FORTE papers should come close to what you might like. ILFORD is now the standard fiber B+W paper now that Kodak and Agfa are both gone. It is a fairly modern looking paper but the warmtone version may work for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 WJ, I lived in a USA town after WW2 that was mostly German, the towns people called themselves "Swiss" for many decades! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl_borowski Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 Dan, not only are you an arrogant ass regardless of what I initially posted about, but apparantly your English isn't very good. FYI wiseguy, this is to honor my late maternal grandfather, who was shot in the leg at Wheeler Field when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. I honor him and the ultimate sacrifice so many others on his base and in Pearl made that day. I'm not dressing up like a Nazi and visiting synagogues, or firing fake guns or other puerile reenactments. War IS a horrible thing. I've been trying for some time to get the funds together to go over to Iraq to document on film what terrible things are going on over there. I'm not afraid of war, but I do know that it is an evil thing. As for WWIII, I don't know about that. You are probably on the side of Israel in any case since you are obviously a bleeding-heart liberal. In any case, I find great fault with Israel's hurling weapons and killing Lebanese civilians. I have a lot of friends whose parents adn friends are under fire over there right now because Israel is too arrogant, stupid, or haughty to have just invaded southern Lebanon in the first place. Enough said to you. Don't post here again since you can't read. Don, thanks for the kind offer. I would indeed like that roll if you are willing to part with it. I'll PM you at a more orthodox hour tomorrow afternoon. Rick, you wouldn't happen to know where i could get either real boxes or really high res scans of old boxes. I think it'd be quite difficult to make a convincing box from a PDF printout. Bill, I hate Kodak's MANAGEMENT, and their recent decisions, but I still love their color films, and good old Tri-X & Kodachrome if they bother to keep making it. I know it's a crazy love-hate relationship. My friends who have worked for the big-K have similar contrary opinions of the company though, so I don't feel that I am THAT crazy ;-) Can anyone give me a yes no vote as to whether getting together on the eve of Pearl Harbor's day, dressing up in period attire, and paying tribute to those that paid their lives on that terrible day is glorifying war or a foolish thing to do "in the shadow of WWIII"? Regards, ~Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_f1 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Well, if you're asking for opinions... If you think it is important, do it. The US is supposedly a free country, right? Plenty of people died to make it so. But if it were me, as the grandson of an Australian WW2 veteran, and as someone who has served on a peacekeeping operation (as an adviser, not a soldier, but I still worked hard and was shot at), I kind of think that spending the money on a donation to some charity that helps the victims of war would be a more fitting and lasting tribute to the memory of someone who had served/suffered in a previous war. There are certainly plenty of innocent children around the world right now who could use the help. Or veteran's groups if you prefer. Just my opinion, seeing as you asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan flanders Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Dear Karl: I am of the same generation as your grandfather and I honor his sacrifice. However I fail to understand how my protest could be construed to relect the opposite when it was that respect which occasioned my protest. Having experienced the horrors that you so vehemently deplore I can only hope that today's generations will be spared the agony. Unfortunately it would appear that history may repeat itself with more uncertain outcome. Regards, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h._p. Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 That was a very courteous reply, Dan, especially given the message that required it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_noel1 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Just to clarify a perhaps minor point: Kodachrome 64 was a post war product. During WWII Kodachrome had two different emulsions. Daylight Kodachrome had a Weston speed of 8, and Indoor Kodachrome had a Weston speed of 12. I used hundreds of rolls of this beautiful original Kodachrome while in high school during the war. The surviving slides are still beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl_borowski Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 Dan, I apollogize for tearing into you like that. Your first post really rubbed me the wrong way though. IDK, maybe I will organize this event into some sort of fund-raiser for WWII vets eventually. For now it is too small, maybe 6-10 people will attend it this year. It is not like Civil War reenactment. I saw an episode of "The New Outer Limits" once where reenacctors went back to the Civil War and learned how the soldiers had been so traumatized that they had forgotten what they had started fighting for. I'm sure that all wars engender that feeling. I do not glorify war. The gathering's purpose is to draw attention to WWII and how the surviving veterans aren't given nearly as much attention on Pearl Harbor Day anymore. I'm 20, and everyone that does this is young too because we want to call attention to the almost inconceivable hardships that those then-young men and women went through for their country. I hope that you do not see anything wrong with that. In terms of WWIII, I hope not. There's no way of knowing for sure whether this crisis in Lebanon & Israel will continue, but I doubt it. I really wish that I could be there though, because network news does not do justice to the horrors of war. The clean, sensored, sanitized images streamed over the airwaves do little to arouse the attentions of an inattentive world audience, and that is a shame. While I probably should contribute more to peace efforts and organizations, I simply don't have the money for it. I am working hard to put a documentary on the middle east together, but that type of project will require at least 30K dollar for the film, travel, and crew. ~Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Tri-x was introduced in the early 1940's in sheet film. Its even listed in the Kodak books in the 1940's. Its the film some of us got cheap or free after WW2 in our 4H club "photo club". ROLL FILM TRI-X was what came out in the 1950's. Kodaks so dumb and stupid it doesnt even know its own history, and often lists the birth of tri-x as 1954, the same year trix the breakfast food came out. The notch code for tri-x sheet was once 3 notches, dah, what tri-x stands for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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