UK heads-up: AP review of the Df is out

<p>Hi all.<br />

<br />

For those in the UK, Amateur Photographer this week has a review of the Df, if people think the 800-post thread

wasn't enough and are keen to read more about this camera...<br />

<br />

I just wanted to take a moment to say AAAAAAARGH. And make an appeal for accuracy in reviewing. Similar to

several other reviews, we have the sentence: "Should you want to change the shutter speed, sensitivity or

exposure compensation, there's no need to scroll through on-screen settings - simply use the dials on top of the

camera." Every review I see like this makes me think someone is being told that you need to go into menus to

change shutter speed, ISO and EC on a modern (non-introductory) DSLR. If those people are film camera stalwarts

reading this review because the Df looks familiar, who decide that they were right all along, ignore every other

DSLR on the market and get a Df solely to avoid "scrolling through on-screen settings", this kind of reporting is

going to have cost them a lot of money. And that makes me cross. I might even write to AP and tell them off.<br />

<br />

Not that I have anything against the Df itself, especially since I <i>still</i> haven't managed to play with one.

I just wish people would discuss the genuine merits of products rather than spreading misinformation. The Df

seems to attract this kind of thing. Thom Hogan (who should know better) has just talked about stop-down metering

in the context of the Df - though KR is still claiming he'll do the same: it seems as though pretty much nobody

is actually trying out pre-AI lenses on the Df in their review process. (To be fair, if you're going to ask

people to dig out pre-AI lenses, I think the least Nikon could have done is add a coupler for the rabbit ears

rather than the half-baked support the Df has, happy though I am to see more compatibility.)<br />

<br />

Anyway... I'm not sure I'd have expected their conclusion that the camera would be best kept below ISO 3200 or

their complaint that image review isn't turned on by default, but the rest of the review is much in line with

what's been seen elsewhere: they're not very convinced by the controls and think it's a bit pricey for what it is

(especially at UK prices, which are still about £2750 with the 50 f/1.8), but it's otherwise perfectly competent.

I obviously wouldn't want to lose them sales by discouraging you from reading the review yourself, though, so

I'll stop summarizing here. My own impression, as a cynic, will turn up when I eventually find time to visit

somewhere that has one in stock. (Anyone know a camera store in Phoenix? I'll be at a conference later this month

and have time to kill...)</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Should you want to change the shutter speed, sensitivity or exposure compensation, there's no need to scroll through on-screen settings - simply use the dials on top of the camera.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The problem with the old-fashioned shutter-speed knob is that you can only change shutter speeds in full stops with it. While you can set up Custom Setting f11, Easy Shutter-Speed Shift, to further fine tune the shutter speed by +- 1/3 or 2/3 stop using the main command dial, if you need to go further, you need to turn the knob again and then use the main command dial to fine tune.</p>

<p>For example, if you set the knob to 1/125 sec, you can use the main command dial to move up to 1/160 or 1/200, or move down to 1/100 or 1/80 but no further. If you want to move further in either direction, you must turn the knob. Moreover, with the knob, you have no access to the really slow shutter speeds longer than 4 seconds.</p>

<p>In other words, instead of simply using the main command dial to make 1/3-stop adjustments continuously all the way from 30 seconds to 1/4000 sec, if you choose to use the knob, it now becomes using two different controls. To me, the best way is to set the knob to 1/3-stop and only use the main command dial, as it is on any other Nikon DSLR.</p>

<p>Additionally, because of the physical dials with 1/3-stop ISO, exposure compensation, and shutter speed adjustments, the option to change in 1/2-stop increments is gone on the Df. It doesn't bother me at all since I prefer 1/3 stop anyway, but for those who want 1/2 stop increments, they are out of luck with the Df.</p>

<p>An annoying thing that you must go to the menu is formatting the memory card. I tend to do that 2, 3 times a day. I just can't believe that Nikon is not providing the two-button format with confirmation on the Df. There are certainly enough buttons on the Df to carry that out.</p>

<p>One bright spot I find on the Df is high-ISO capability. The other day I tried ISO 12800 early in the morning at a friend's dark kitchen. The Df does a very respectable job at 12800. I'll provide some samples later on.</p>

<p>Concerning pre-AI lenses, I bought my first Nikon camera and lens in 1977, the year they introduced AI. I still own that lens from 1977. But even though I am a long-time Nikon user, I own no pre-AI lens. People have no fewer than 36+ years to have their pre-AI lenses converted. IMO, the whole pre-AI compatibility idea is silly.</p>

Two comments: <br>

Isn't it a good thing for the rest of us, if people who can afford it support

Nikon by going out and just buying the Df, without too much research into

the fake 'buttons vs menus' issue?<br>

And b): You can still buy those pre-AI Nikkors, for example on eBay. Often

they are quite affordable. Personally, I like the idea of a camera that can

use (and meter) with them without having to get the file (and super glue, for

the chip) out.

<blockquote>

<p><em>Personally, I like the idea of a camera that can use (and meter) with them without having to get the file (and super glue, for the chip) out.</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>I like it, too. Usually, using a pre-Ai, MF lens on a DSLR, is a two minutes game, a couple of shots action, before being aware that any AF or AFS lens do it <em>much better.</em>.. So the Df is great to avoid breaking more pre-Ai lenses... ;)</p>

<p>These discussions are just SOO tiring, especially if rambling on and on about the same subject... The camera is pretty good though, judging from- albeit brief- handling.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>These discussions are just SOO tiring</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Right, there really isn't much more to say after, what, 800+ posts on a thread.</p>

<p>Nikon definitely put in a lot of work on how it looks and the Df is well made, but that is essentially what you are paying for. Otherwise it is a very expensive camera that costs about the same as a D800 in the US but with a feature set weaker than the D600/D610.</p>

<p>In other words, if you are the type that tries to save money buying pre-AI lenses, it doesn't make much sense to over-pay for a Df body. Seriously, plenty of AI and AI-S lenses are dirt cheap in the used market too, and even their optical quality varies. There are few reasons to reach back to the pre-AI era for optical designs and manufacturing from over 36 years ago.</p>

<p>Now that I have used the Df for a couple of weeks, my opinion has not changed a bit since I wrote the preview for photo.net back in November without ever seeing one: <a href="/reviews/nikon-df-preview/">http://www.photo.net/reviews/nikon-df-preview/</a><br>

Not that there is anything really wrong with it, but the Df is an expensive toy for collectors and wealthy folks with NAS. Leica has been surviving for decades catering to that market segment. Hopefully Nikon can make some money in the same fashion.</p>

<p>I can't see the problem setting the shutter speed in full stops. Normally you would just fine tune exposure with the aperture ring if you want a little more or less exposure.</p>

<p>Borgis: Yes, sorry, I'd not meant to kick off another set of general discussions about the Df - I was just bringing people's attention to the review (some may care what AP think) and raising my concerns about the quality of reporting (not just by AP), particularly in the context of an easily-misunderstood camera like the Df.<br />

<br />

Stefan: Financially good, yes. Good for the soul, not so much.<br />

<br />

I like compatibility for compatibility's sake. Do I need it? No. Is it nice to know that I have the largest possible range of accessories to consider? Yes.<br />

<br />

Shun: Yes, on a modern camera <i>other than the Df</i> you rarely need to go into menus, which makes the initial comment even more misleading. Obviously it's not a big deal for everyone - there's a big difference between needing menus to change shutter speed and needing menus to format the memory card. But it's true that no Nikon DSLR with two dials (and I think the same is true for Canon) needs you to enter a menu for the settings specifically mentioned. Some people, especially burnt by older and low-end cameras or compacts, have a poorer impression of a modern camera interface than is justified; best not to mislead.</p>

<p>I recently thought I might consider trading in all the Nikon stuff for a different system that had more "retro" styling, similar to the Nikon Df. After doing some hands-on experimentation I discovered two things.<br>

1.As romantic as it seemed to have retro styling, it was harder to get where I wanted to get with it, for some of the reasons mentioned above.<br>

2. When I started messing with a camera that DID NOT have the front and rear command dials set up in the place and function that it is on my D90, I realized that I now HAVE to have that.<br>

<br />So... for the photo enthusiast, my recommendation is to try and learn the way things work now in the 21st century and stop the nostalgia. I'm sure there's a "rich collector" market for this camera... but... as cool as I once thought it might be... it's not me.</p>

<p>Sigh. Here we go with more discussion on minuscule details of the Df versus ... </p>

<p>After a couple months with the Df, my D800 is gathering dust on the shelf, and will likely be sold one of these days. For me, the Df is unquestionably a better handling camera, and much more pleasant to carry and shoot.</p>

<p>Your results may vary, of course.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>My own impression, as a cynic, will turn up when I eventually find time to visit somewhere that has one in stock. (Anyone know a camera store in Phoenix? I'll be at a conference later this month and have time to kill...)</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Andrew, which cave in the UK do you live?</p>

<p>I find it hard to believe that the one person who single handedly prolongs so many discussions on the Df has yet to use one, after it has been available for a month and half. I would highly recommend that you buy a Df in Phoenix. If you don't need it in the long run, I would imagine that you can always sell it back in the UK for a profit.</p>

<p>These are some old threads on camera stores in Phoenix:</p>

<ul>

<li><a href="/nikon-camera-forum/00cES1">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00cES1</a></li>

<li><a href="/nikon-camera-forum/00Mwtm">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00Mwtm</a></li>

</ul>

<P>

This is the kitchen image I posted to today's Nikon Wednesday thread, with the Df @ ISO 12800, Nikon 18-35mm/f3.5-4.5 AF-S lens @ 27mm, f4.5, and 1/40 sec hand held.

</P>

<P>

<CENTER>

<IMG SRC="http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00c/00cJOG-544865984.jpg">

</CENTER>

</P>

<P>

And below is the pixel-level crop.

</P><div></div>

<blockquote>

<p>there's no need to scroll through on-screen settings </p>

</blockquote>

<p>With a conventional DSLR, you do have to scroll through settings on <em>some</em> screen or other—the top screen, the menu screen, or the viewfinder screen. I don't read the reviewer's statement as necessarily referring to menu diving.</p>

<p>I don't know is it was mentioned in the 800+ thread but I do find it rather amusing that the most ergonomic place for the shutter speed control just happens to be on the top plate in the very place it was on a pre-war Leica. That wasn't from choice; it was from necessity being about the only way to adjust the curtain setting on the horizontal travel focal plane shutter. Similarly the best place for the front command dial seems to have been chosen because that was where the ranging knob on a pre-war Contax was located.<br>

I could go on (sigh) .....</p>

<blockquote>

<p>For example, if you set the knob to 1/125 sec, you can use the main command dial to move up to 1/160 or 1/200, or move down to 1/100 or 1/80 but no further.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>So much then for the claim that the Df allows to see the settings <em>without</em> turning the camera on? Seems to me that one can't trust that the ISO is set where the dial says it is - the camera might be on AutoISO (and the setting on the dial then has different effects depending on other settings in the menus). And the shutter speed dial may also not reflect the true setting - the Easy Shutter-Speed Shift may be in effect. At least the Exposure Compensation dial isn't lying to you - or is there a setting to bypass that one as well? And with a G lens, one won't see the aperture unless the camera is ON (just for completeness). Now someone tell me again what the advantage of the dials on the D(igital)f(rankenstein) is? Seems to me the dials confuse and complicate things more than they are helpful; Nikon may have been better off not trying to hide nearly all the features of a modern DSLR in this retro style - maybe just A and M would have been sufficient? Maybe Nikon's desire to provide something for everyone in the end really pleases no one? Just my 2 cents - no need trying to convince me that the Df is head and shoulders above all the other cameras ;-)</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Concerning pre-AI lenses, I bought my first Nikon camera and lens in 1977, the year they introduced AI. I still own that lens from 1977. But even though I am a long-time Nikon user, I own no pre-AI lens. People have no fewer than 36+ years to have their pre-AI lenses converted. IMO, the whole pre-AI compatibility idea is silly.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well, when the dates are changed to 1979, then exactly the same applies to me. And $2750 buys a lot of Ai-conversions if one really feels the need to use a lens made before 1977.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I would highly recommend that you buy a Df in Phoenix.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I second that suggestion - it's high time for you to satisfy your curiosity. Not so sure about making a profit selling it back in the UK - unless you manage to avoid paying tax and customs on your return.</p>

<p>Yes many reviews I have read about the Df make the same wrong statement. On most DSLR's adjusting shutter speed, aperture, ISO, EC you don't have to go into menu for those. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Yes many reviews I have read about the Df make the same wrong statement. On most DSLR's adjusting shutter speed, aperture, ISO, EC you don't have to go into menu for those.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>In fact, on the Df, you cannot go to the menu to adjust shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and exposure compensation. Clearly it would have been very wrong if you set the shutter speed to, e.g., 1/125 sec on the physical knob and then you go into the menu and change it to something else.</p>

<p>I am not aware that any Nikon DSLR lets you change those other than the ISO setting from the menu, anyway. On most higher-end DSLRs you can set the ISO in the menu and store that in a Shooting Menu Bank, but the Df doesn't allow that since it cannot differ from the setting on the hard physical dial. However, auto ISO control is still from the menu.</p>

<p>One confusing area is that you can set the SPAM dial to A, aperture priority. In that case the shutter speed is automatically selected and whatever setting on the shutter speed knob is ignored. Old film SLRs such as the FE doesn't have this issue since the A setting is on the shutter speed knob itself. On the Df, you need to be careful. The same is true for the P mode.</p>

I am delighted with my Df which I traded my d800 for.. I have no negative issues whatsoever and I look forward to years

of use.

p.s. And I am not a rich collector

<p>Dan: Sorry! (I gave up on hoping someone could persuade me, logically, of the merits of the Df interface, for the most part, and accepted that I'll need to work it out for myself, so I'm not after yet another huge thread. I <i>can</i> logically explain why some of the Df's design decisions at least seem to get in the way of use - though I won't repeat myself by going through them all now - so I'm trying to counter that. If you feel you can explain why the Df works so well for you - and I'm very glad that it does - by all means prolong the discussion and put me out of my misery. Otherwise I'm happy to stop boring people and try to learn for myself.)<br />

<br />

Shun: Sorry for dragging things out! I'm depressingly far from anything resembling a camera store (my cupboards are better stocked than anything within an hour's drive - and the same is nearly true for computer books...) - the concept of a local camera store being a rare thing in the UK these days - and I spend far too much time in the office. Sometimes posting, admittedly. Still, the Df took its time to appear in the UK (it's still back ordered in some configurations or plain missing, even from big stores) and getting to one that's on a shelf remains non-trivial for me. If any forum members would like to visit the sunny Staines/Bracknell region and let me play, on the other hand...<br />

<br />

Thanks for the links. I was more thinking of playing with one in store than giving my credit card a work-out, much though the "profitable importing scheme" has appeal, but I'll see whether I fall in love with it; my birthday's coming up if you're feeling generous. And that image is pretty respectable, considering - even if it could do with a visit from DxO.<br />

<br />

Kent: Point taken. Though I'd not really appreciated that anyone found that to be a problem. Maybe that's my modern-camera bias. My blood pressure may, then, reduce - I'll stop being cross with the reviewer.<br />

<br />

Dieter: Love to. Lend me one? :-) I promise, the moment I can find one... (If there's one in the shops at Heathrow, expect me to risk missing a flight while playing.)<br />

<br />

Brian: I'm glad to hear of another happy customer. (Genuinely, my biggest concern about the Df was that some people may make an expensive emotional purchase and end up with a camera that didn't do what they need, at least well. That at least some people find it <i>does</i> do what they need is reassuring.) Not that I'm likely to let go of my D800 any time soon, but I still hope at least to understand what the fuss is about, better than I managed to after 800 posts. And I do get a <i>bit</i> of the fuss, at last.</p>

<p>Andrew, no apology necessary. Once, I was complaining to my Minister about some issues in a committee in our church, hoping others would see things my way. The Reverend said to me "Dan, image what this church would be like, if everyone was exactly like you?" Well, it would have been a lot worse, because at the end of the day, I'm not all that.</p>

<p>I just wish everybody else would love the Df as much as I do :-|</p>

<p>I'm as happy to discover that the Df just doesn't fit my shooting style as I would be to find that it's my perfect camera. What bothers me is that I don't (fully) understand it - I struggle, somewhat, to see why people like it, at least so effusively, which I would normally be able to do with a camera (or other product) even if I disagreed with them. It may be that I'm looking for more justification than is there, but it's the failure to understand - the happy customers as much as the camera - that bothers me. I'm hoping that getting my hands on one will let me work it out.<br />

<br />

I'm perfectly happy for people to disagree with me - it's not like I've been lacking experience. Feeling that I'm not truly seeing the other person's perspective is more unusual. Or possibly my experience with the Df thread has just turned me into a psychopath.<br />

<br />

I do feel, from comments, that those who like the camera seem to have found a way to adapt their way of shooting to it (mostly) - or just found that their shooting style was already a poor fit for current cameras. Most reviewers, on the other hand, seem to have tried to use it like a modern DSLR, and struggled. This is why I keep looking at reviews - I hope someone is going to try to work out how to use the camera in a way that <i>does</i> "work". I've yet to see many reviews who have said the Df's controls actually help in some situation (surely they help <i>sometimes</i>), so I'm determined to treat the Df as a puzzle to be cracked when I finally see one. The thread of doom was my training regime. Thank you all for sparring with me.</p>

<p>Think about the D100 release. An affordable digital SLR, that delivered the image files that could do all those things that digital files can do (not the least of which are instant image review and the elimination of film and processing).</p>

<p>But, I don't think anybody felt the the D100 was a quality camera instrument, and felt they were short-changed on overall camera quality and handling in exchange for the higher cost of the digital components inside. We had to get used to the relatively poorer feel and handling as compared to similarly priced cameras of the day. And that really didn't change going through the D200, D300, D700 sequence, IMHO. We also developed an expectation that the camera we bought today would be obsolete in a very few years.</p>

<p>The Df changes that. It's an much better handling, permanent camera. Something that will deliver for the entire Nikon generation, which was established as a ten year cycle so long ago. It's an off-ramp from the digital-upgrade merry-go-round, and one that I happily have taken.</p>

<p>Dan,<br>

I couldn't agree with you more, and yet the DF continues to be as if a thorn in the side of reviewers, and thread contributors alike. Also, this very P.Net does not even recognize the Df in its Nikon equipment section as if it doesn't even exist. What's with that?</p>

<p>Dan: Well, until I understand better, I'm with Shun that the Df may not be a camera that gets upgraded... But it's also true (as Thom Hogan is fond of pointing out) that we're at the stage where upgrading a DSLR in order to get a better camera is becoming a less useful pursuit. We're near theoretical maximum low light performance, and we're at the stage where resolution is limited by practical lens manufacture cost, diffraction and the user's ability. The D100 (or 300D in my case) was clearly improved by later generations; the D7000/D7100, at least in the sensor, is much closer. So I don't think a Df is likely to need replacing soon, at least for what it can currently do - but I'd say the same for a D610 or a D800 (less so a D4). I do believe that a Df will be better to use than a D100, no matter my opinion of the dials, but I also don't think comparing a Df with the equivalent of a D5300 in terms of market position (ranges have split, so that's a guess) is all that fair. A D2xs might be fairer, and that's not built to fall apart. Meanwhile, quite a bit of the Df is plastic, though I'm not necessarily criticising it for that.<br />

<br />

I'm staying out of discussions about whether the interface is actually a significant improvement for most users until I can form my own opinion (and I look forward to Shun's assessment). I promise to try to keep an open mind. I'm happy that it's an improvement for some people, though.</p>

<p>Andrew! I don't want to drag this out but I know for sure that the Df is not the camera for you in term of handling (it may be fine in term of performance). I do like the Df very much and it's the camera for me. The reason simply because I use the camera much different from your way of doing it.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><strong>I'm staying out of discussions</strong> about whether the interface is actually a significant improvement for most users until I can form my own opinion</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>;)</p>