Trying to find a wide lens for a crown graflex

Hi peopl. I just got a crown Graflex for 20 bucks on craigslist. It's a bit beat up but the bellows look good and the lens is clean and sounds accurate. It has a Schneider 135 4.7.

I want something wider to take to Yellowstone here in a few months. I want to spend as little as possible. I found a Hermagis Hellar 105 4.5 enlarging lens in some of my stuff. I'm wondering if I can make a board for it and just do long exposures stopping down then covering it up quickly.

Does any one know if it should focus to infinity? Should it cover the negative? Am I missing anything. I know very little about large format. Thanks for any advise.

I expect a 105mm lens was intended to enlarge something like 2¼x3¼ inch negatives ('6x9' on 120 film). If that's the size of your camera, I expect it will cover. If that's a 4x5-inch Crown Graphic though, I'd be very surprised if your enlarging lens will cover.

 

I have tried working with no shutter. It can be done, but it's a pain. Unless you have very long times, it's hard to make them accurate; and if there's a breeze, all your trees will be blurred. Myself, I'd hold out for a lens with a shutter, even maybe take something off a folding camera.

 

For focus, the bellows should allow you to focus a lens as short as 50mm, if I remember right, though very short bellows extensions may be awkward to work with.

 

I'd advise you to try the camera with the lens you have first. If that's a 4x5-inch camera, your 135mm lens is already a moderate wide; something like a 35 on a 35mm camera (it's worth checking that covers, too).

 

Good luck!

As Dustin said, in general a 105/4.5 enlarging lens won't cover 4x5 at distance. To be more specific, the Hellor is a tessar type, will cover at most 60 degrees stopped down. A 105 that covers 150 mm has to cover 71 degrees. There are good reasons why people who shoot 4x5 don't use 100 mm +/- enlarging lenses as w/a lenses.

 

Taking lenses from 2x3/6x9 folders, as Dustin suggested, aren't wide angle lenses and won't cover 4x5. Again, there are good reasons why they're not used as w/a lenses on 4x5.

 

I take it that you have a 4x5 Crown Graphic. Inexpensive and relatively easily found w/a lenses for 4x5 include 90/6.8 Optar/Raptar and 90/6.3 Angulon. Different designs, both cover 4x5 with little room for movements. More expensive more modern lenses with greater coverage include 90/8 Ilex, 90/8 Fujinon SW, 90/6.8 Grandagon, 90/8 Nikkor SW and 90/8 Super Angulon. All of these will work on your camera. There are many less common lenses that will do for you.

 

Re the shortest lens that will work on a 4x5 Crown, the camera's minimum extension is 52.5 mm. The 47/5.6 Super Angulon XL will focus to infinity on your camera and covers 166 mm @ f/22. You can't afford one and is probably much wider than you'll be able to use well at Yellowstone.

The lens cap shutter works fine in studio-like situations, but would be tough with modern film outdoors. As said above, common lenses that you can pull from folders and such won't do the job. Long ago I had a Calumet 4x5 and couldn't afford a lens. I used a 135 mm Tessar from a folding camera and it barely covered the corners. You're already doing far better than that, and 135 is on the wide side of normal. I kept telling myself the darker corners were artistic. You need a proper wide angle lens in a shutter if you want to go that way. Considering the cost of a trip, it should be possible to find something used for a reasonable price. IMO, perfectly decent photos have been taken with normal lenses and if you don't have 4x5 experience it might be a good idea to use what you've got. There's a learning curve and I'd be doing a lot of practicing before going on a trip. Expect to wreck a lot of shots for reasons you don't yet know about! I'd also duplicate my shots with whatever camera I normally use.

OP, when shooting wide I liked 'superwides' with 4x5. The Super Angulon 75mm was a staple with me. Not much distortion and nice and sharp. That is what I used here...

 

 

 

He had worked in the fashion industry in NYC before becoming homeless. He said his pants were made from old drapes. He folded up the jacket he is leaning on to keep the outside clean to give a “good appearance” to the world. He was homeless, but he still had dignity.

Taking lenses from 2x3/6x9 folders, as Dustin suggested, aren't wide angle lenses and won't cover 4x5. Again, there are good reasons why they're not used as w/a lenses on 4x5.

 

I didn't say that. I just said a folder.

If what the OP has is a 2x3 Crown, then a 2x3 folder is going to have a normal lens for his camera; still a little wider than the 135 he has now. If what he has is a 4x5 Crown, then he's going to have to start with a bigger folder. Many of the older and bigger cameras have some rise and shift, even on cameras with fairly simple lenses; so you might get something like a 5 inch lens, that might cover the 4x5 if you don't want movements on the big camera. The OP has told us he spent 20 dollars on the camera, and doesn't want to spend much more; so maybe he'd accept (say) a Rapid Rectilinear in a three-speed automat shutter.

I bought a quarter-plate Ensign Carbine not long ago; it has a 5½-inch Xpres and a Compur shutter; I paid more than I think the OP would want to, and I don't mean to break it for parts.

 

 

Leaving behind the question that was asked, you could spend no money at all and make a pinhole plate. The angle of view is then set by the bellows extension. Everything at all ranges is equally in- and out of focus. You will be condemned to long exposures.

Here's a chart of view camera lenses and coverage from The Photography Catalog (Harper & Row, 1976)

 

The prices are 1976 prices.I would not expect any of these to be easy to find.

 

It's one reason the body shell can be so cheap. I paid practically nothing for my 5x7" body. I have found it impossible so far to find inexpensive view camera lenses. I've looked on line and in person in New York and London. The old brass ones are collector's items, of course.

I found a Hermagis Hellar 105 4.5 enlarging lens in some of my stuff. I'm wondering if I can make a board for it and just do long exposures

No. It won't cover 5x4.

 

Look for a 90mm f/6.3 Angulon. This was the 'regulation' wideangle for such cameras.

 

Anything wider, or more fancy, like a 75mm SA is just going to be extremely difficult or impossible to fit and focus on a Crown Graphic.

Edited February 8, 2020 by rodeo_joe|1

Dustin, the OP's camera has a 135/4.7 Schneider. This was standard issue for later top rangefinder 4x5 Crown Graphics. 100 mm +/- is normal, not wide angle, on 2x3.

 

Cowboy wrote "Anything wider, or more fancy, like a 75mm SA is just going to be extremely difficult or impossible to fit and focus on a Crown Graphic." Stuff and nonsense. In post #3 above I pointed out that the 4x5 Crown's minimum extension is 52.5 mm. I didn't mention -- thought it wasn't necessary, people who know the camera know this -- that Pacemaker Graphics have linked inner and outer bed rails and are therefore very friendly to short lenses. It is true that some focal lengths make infinity with the standard centered on the hinge. The solution is to give up a little close focusing distance and position the standard as far forward as it will go on the inner rail.

 

JDMvW's list is, like all such, incomplete. Worse, none of the 4x5 lenses in it are now inexpensive.

 

Thinking of inexpensive and incomplete, in post #3 above I didn't mention the 90/6.8 Geronar-WA or 90/6.8 Leitmeyr because both are scarce. I just took a look on ebay.com, found a set of 90 Geronar cells, not cheap, and a $60 Leitmeyr in working shutter described as hazy.

Cowboy wrote "Anything wider, or more fancy, like a 75mm SA is just going to be extremely difficult or impossible to fit and focus on a Crown Graphic." Stuff and nonsense. In post #3 above I pointed out that the 4x5 Crown's minimum extension is 52.5 mm.

It's not about the minimum focus distance. The 'hourglass' design of many wide-angles makes accommodating the diameter of the rear section quite difficult, and if lens shift is attempted the rear lens cone may well collide with the tapered bellows.

 

On some field/technical cameras, the only way to fit an hourglass Grandagon, for example, is to take off the rear section and re-fit it through the back of the camera once the lensboard is in place.

Edited February 10, 2020 by rodeo_joe|1

It's not about the minimum focus distance. The 'hourglass' design of many wide-angles makes accommodating the diameter of the rear section quite difficult, and if lens shift is attempted the rear lens cone may well collide with the tapered bellows.

 

On some field/technical cameras, the only way to fit an hourglass Grandagon, for example, is to take off the rear section and re-fit it through the back of the camera once the lensboard is in place.

If the camera uses Technika 45 boards the the only one that required that maneuver was the 90mm SA XL.

Bob, the OP has a 4x5 Crown Graphic, not a Linhof.

 

Cowboy, the OP can't afford a fast w/a lens. The ones I suggested are all known to fit 2x3 Pacemaker Graphics and have rear cells that will pass through the 48 mm square 2x3 Pacemaker Graphic lens throat. The OP has a 4x5er, with a larger lens throat. And the only useful movement with short lenses on 4x5 Graphics is front rise. No problem at all with the old cheap lenses I suggested, their rear cells just enter the lens throat. Minimal problem with, e.g., a modern 90.8 w/a.

We still don't know it's a 4x5 Crown; the OP just said a Crown.

FWIW, I've been very happy using my 75mm Nikkor-SW on my Pacemaker Speed. If it works on a Speed Graphic, I'd expect it to be fine on a Crown.

 

I doesn't require any fancy tricks to use.

We still don't know it's a 4x5 Crown; the OP just said a Crown.

its a crown

The lens cap shutter works fine in studio-like situations, but would be tough with modern film outdoors. As said above, common lenses that you can pull from folders and such won't do the job. Long ago I had a Calumet 4x5 and couldn't afford a lens. I used a 135 mm Tessar from a folding camera and it barely covered the corners. You're already doing far better than that, and 135 is on the wide side of normal. I kept telling myself the darker corners were artistic. You need a proper wide angle lens in a shutter if you want to go that way. Considering the cost of a trip, it should be possible to find something used for a reasonable price. IMO, perfectly decent photos have been taken with normal lenses and if you don't have 4x5 experience it might be a good idea to use what you've got. There's a learning curve and I'd be doing a lot of practicing before going on a trip. Expect to wreck a lot of shots for reasons you don't yet know about! I'd also duplicate my shots with whatever camera I normally use.

thanks for the reply

We still don't know it's a 4x5 Crown; the OP just said a Crown.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hi it is a 4x5

I used a Schneider Super Angulon 65mm f8 as my main lens on a 4x5 Speed Graphic for several years. The very first thing you need to determine before investing in a wide angle lens is to find out if you need to drop the bed AND if you can drop the bed. I don't think that I had to drop it for the 90/f8 SA but I think for 75mm and wider you do. If the bed cannot be dropped it may be within the frame of your wideangle lens. Several of the Graphic models do not allow the bed to drop. Secondly it truly is a pain in the neck to focus with lenses like the 65mm since the front standard sits on the body rails, where you have to place the standard by hand. There is no geared focusing when on the body rail. It is doable but not easy and not entirely accurate.

 

 

P.S. I also used a Schneider Angulon 90mm f6.8 which is very inexpensive. I eventually replaced it with the SA 90/8.

Edited April 11, 2020 by John Crowe

John, the OP has a 4x5 Crown Graphic. The Pacemaker Crown Graphic is one of two versions of 4x5 Pacemaker Graphic. The other is the Pacemaker Speed Graphic.

 

All Pacemaker Graphics have drop beds.

 

All Pacemaker Graphics have linked inner and outer bed rails. Focusing a lens that makes infinity with the front standard on the inner rails is as easy as focusing a lens that makes infinity with the front standard on the outer rails. Just turn the knob.

As ads for Packard cars said, "Ask the man who owns one."

Hi peopl. I just got a crown Graflex for 20 bucks on craigslist. It's a bit beat up but the bellows look good and the lens is clean and sounds accurate. It has a Schneider 135 4.7.

I want something wider to take to Yellowstone here in a few months. I want to spend as little as possible. I found a Hermagis Hellar 105 4.5 enlarging lens in some of my stuff. I'm wondering if I can make a board for it and just do long exposures stopping down then covering it up quickly.

Does any one know if it should focus to infinity? Should it cover the negative? Am I missing anything. I know very little about large format. Thanks for any advise.

 

I'm not sure of your budget, but a nice lens that might suit you is a Fujinon W 105/5.6. It's really a plasmat with no cemented elements and and it's image circle is 162mm. It will cover 4x5 safely but without movements (unlike the Nikon version which is for 6x9).

I have one and it's a nice sharp lens that stays in place with the camera closed, at least on my Super Graphic.