To buy an SQ-Ai or 500CM?

<p>Hello to all. I'd like to get another 6x6. I have old el-cheapo 6x6s and twin-reflex cameras but nothing one would call "serious" or "grown-up", if that's the way they want to put it. I've used a Bronica ETRS and other waist level cameras and am comfortable with them. I've been using 35s for a very long time and wish to try something new; a new challenge. I've never bought a brand new camera and so far have never been disappointed.<br>

My choice is between a Bronica SQ-A or I and a Hasselblad 500 CM.<br>

I want a MF camera for field work, architectural, urban, landscape; I do a lot of walking and hiking; no studio work. That's why I chose the two cameras.<br>

1- I've read previous posts on this but was wondering if anybody would like to share their experience with these cameras.<br>

2- Which online store would you recommend? I found KEH so far to have quite the selection and reputation. I've also never bought a camera online. When there are no images of the specific camera, how do I evaluate it before buying it? How trustworthy are their ratings?<br>

Thank you all for your time. D.</p>

<p>I would go with the 6x7 format myself. Since portability is an issue, that means a Bronica GS-1 or Mamiya 7 to me. I know that just complicates matters for you but picking the right med format system takes some experience and alot of meditation.</p>

<p>I've bought many items from KEH and very few were not in BGN condition. In all cases the items were better than most items I bought on eBay in "Minty" condition. They are very conservative in their ratings and have a very generous return policy.</p>

<p>I've never owned a Bronica, so I can't compare it to a Hasselblad, but I did love my Hasselblad 500CM and, if you've got the cash, I'd say that's a great way to go.</p>

<p>Both systems will provide you with excellent image quality. The Zeiss lenses are probably better than the Bronica offerings, but if you're not shooting off of a tripod with MLU (or Hasselblad's equivalent) and a release cable then you're probably never going to see an objective difference. </p>

<p>If you go ahead and buy a Bronica or HB and decide you hate it there's a good chance you'd be able to sell it for close to what you paid and go with the other. So, dive in!</p>

<p>KEH has an excellent reputation which it well deserves. Their selection is generally quite good,. and their estimate of an item's condition tends to be conservative -- nearly all of the EX condition items I've bought from them look almost brand new. They have their own repair shop, too, which I think is involved in evaluating the condition of used items. Their prices are not the lowest around, but I think that's understandable considering their attention to quality.</p>

<p>Adorama and B&H are also reliable, but their ratings are not quite as reliable as KEH's (though still pretty trustworthy). I've bought lenses from them that turned out to have stiff focusing or aperture rings that were not mentioned in the description. But they have good return policies, which mostly makes up for that.</p>

<p>I've bought a number of things from <a href="http://www.collectiblecameras.com/">Collectible Cameras</a>. Their prices tend to be lower than KEH, Adorama, or B&H, and they have a nice habit of listing serial numbers in item descriptions (sometimes very important, depending on what you're buying and how picky you are about which version of it you get) and mentioning things like stiff focusing rings. However, my impression is that they do not have their own repair facility, so they're probably selling items exactly as they received them, most likely without a really detailed internal inspection. Because of this, I have to consider KEH a safer source, though you do pay for that extra safety.</p>

<p>As for Bronica vs. Hasselblad, I have to agree with what I think is the common received wisdom on the subject: Bronica is nice, but basically a cheaper Hasselblad in every way. The build quality isn't quite as good, the lenses aren't quite as good, etc. This is not to say Bronica is bad, but if you really want the best, Hasselblad is the way to go.</p>

<p>When buying a 500 C/M, check the serial number and inspect it carefully. The 500 C/M was in production for over 20 years (1970 to 1994), and many of them saw heavy use in professional studios. There is a good article online called <a href="http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/hassybuy.html">"How to Buy a Hasselblad"</a> which I highly recommend. You will also want to be aware of the differences between various Hasselblad film backs; the A12 is the 120 back most commonly used with the 500 C/M.</p>

<p>I recently acquired a 500c/m from KEH, so here are my thoughts. I decided that Hasselblad was the logical brand for me, and reasons included the vast used market, the reasonable weight (I have taken it hiking), and lack of battery power. I also like the EV system and find it faster and simpler. If I decide to sell it, I doubt I will lose much.<br>

Having used it for a few months, I've found a couple of minor annoyances. It's unfortunate that the 80 can't focus closer than 3 feet the way my Bronica S2 did (though the SQ series is about the same). I was also disappointed in the noticeable barrel distortion caused by the 80 cf. I graduated from the stock split focus screen to an Accu matte "D" but find that though bright, it lacks real snap. You better have good eyes to focus it.<br>

One poster above mentioned the Mamiya 6x7. I have the 6, and while it is the same sharpness, or maybe even <em>slightly</em> sharper than the Zeiss, the Zeiss 80 cf has noticeably better contrast and better bokeh than the Mamiya 75. The jury is out for the bayonet filter attachment on the lenses. You will either have to buy an adapter ring or new filters, but you can get a whole set of Bronica lenses that use the same 67mm. And for some reason, the Cokin bayonet adapter is obscenely expensive. The 500c/m has a quick-release tripod mount built in, and the tripod head adapter is pretty cheap. I do use a tripod and mirror pre-release whenever possible. Whatever happens, do not underestimate the amount you will spend to build a Hasselblad system. <br>

I've patronized KEH for years and mostly had good experiences. Don't assume, though, that the price of an outfit will save you any more money. You may actually do better piecing together a kit.<br>

I could have gotten exactly the same outfit with accu matte screen and saved money over their kit price. Their return policy is for 14 days, but that is from date of order, not when you receive it. They usually will be flexible a day or so after that, but be aware that you should test everything very soon. I don't think they test everything beyond noting the condition and tripping the shutter, so the burden is on you to test for light leaks or other problems.</p>

<p>Why "or"?</p>

<p>You can buy a Bronica with a bunch of lenses for the price of a Hasselblad with only one lens. Buy the Bronica system. Try it out for a few months. Sell it, for about the same, or maybe more than, that you bought it for.</p>

<p>Then get the 500cm, and try that out.</p>

<p>Then sell that, and get the 501cm, etc.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I want a MF camera for field work, architectural, urban, landscape; I do a lot of walking and hiking; no studio work. That's why I chose the two cameras.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's a pretty wide range of needs. You are probably going to want access to affordable lenses for all those purposes. A 30mm Bronica lens is going to run you a couple hundred bucks. A Hasselblad, even used, is going to be way over a $1000, just for a wide angle lens, the 40 or 50. A 30,,,couple thousand used. Getting the Bronica first will at least let you know if you want it or not.</p>

<p>I don't know what architectural work you intend to do, but a perspective control system is probably what you want for that. The Hasselblad has two tilt shift system cameras that take your existing Hassleblad lenses and backs, but just the bodies are above 2K used(usually), and still have severe limitations over a used $500-1000 view camera kit.</p>

<p>"Urban"?, if that means street photography, I would discount either of the systems for that. They are big, and loud. If you want attention, then sure, they will both get you that... you will get people coming up to you to ask,,,"is that one of those Rosenblots?"</p>

<p>I have had 3 GS1s, and I will tell you that the 6x7 format is more of a hassle than it's worth. But me, myself, I would look at the Mamiya 7s for street work, if that's what you mean by "urban". If I wanted MF for that. But I also don't think that 35 detracts from the intent of most urban stuff, and I have been looking at small Rollei 35s just for that purpose.</p>

<p>I own a Bronica SQ-A, and when you mentioned hiking... I cringed. It is a pretty heavy camera. I am not familiar with the Hassy in terms of weight, but here's what appealed to me about the SQ-A system:<br>

1. Cost (Pretty much echoing what Richard said above)<br>

2. Range of lenses, all 67-mm filter ring<br>

3. Availability of eye-level viewfinder w/metering.<br>

As for KEH, yesterday I received a Bronica 150 mm f/3.5 S Zenzanon lens, described as excellent condition. It was exactly as described. I couldn't have been happier with it or them.</p>

<p>I wouldn't recommend using a Bronnie handheld, there's just something about the mirror clunk that screams "clamp me down on a tripod - please!". And if you're looking to save weight then why not consider the 645 format? It's capable of <em>exactly </em>the same image quality as 6x6 and will save in both outfit size and cost, and in money on film. A 645 SLR also has a smaller mirror to damp the vibration of. You've previously used both 35mm and an ETRS, so if you don't compose or print square, why shoot an extra 30% of film only to throw it away in a crop?</p>

<p>Anyway, given a strict choice between Blad or Bronnie it would have to be Blad every time.</p>

<p>So, you want a good 6x6 SLR...I'm going to play devil's advocate and suggest a Rollei 6000 series, which has the electronic conveniences of the Bronica and the Zeiss lenses of the Hasselblad (and Schneider lenses too!).</p>

<p>If you want another 6x6, get another 6x6, and not bother with 6x4.5 or 6x7. My least used Hasselblad magazines are the two 6x4.5, which I only use for copy work when I have a number of rectangular images to document. Going up to 6x7 also required the investment of additional enlarger, when there was nothing wrong with the Durst M605. Of course this not relevant to colour printing, because I scan the film and send out to a good lab for printing. (Bangkok) But it's mostly B&W for me.<br>

(Circumstances have changed a little now regarding the 6x7, because I also use a Linhof Technika, for which I have several 6x7 magazines, for 120 and 70mm. The Kaiser enlarger I was given does not take 70mm film, so an even larger enlarger with special negative gate is required .. and so on )<br>

However 6x6 vs 6x4.5 - Because I photograph a lot of architectural subjects, and sometimes end up with a crop approximating 6x4.5, I use the 6x6 format held level. Then mostly with a 50mm Distagon, frame to crop the foreground. So it is effectively a 6x4.5 camera with 15mm vertical shift. My image examples are on the other side of the world at the moment, but I'm sure you can imagine it well enough. Using super fine and sharp film such as EFKE/Adox R14/R17 (20/40ASA), PMK Pyro developed, I have been asked on more than one occasion if they were taken with large format. ;-) Printed in the darkroom by the way, on the best fibre based papers, usually selenium toned.<br>

Bronica or Hasselblad? Well, there are some excellent Bronica lenses, but over all, the Zeiss range is about the best there has ever been, and the range of accessories for the Hasselblad is vast, and as far as compatibility of most things go, from the first 500C in the 1950s, all the way up to the latest 503CW, Bronica is not even in the race.<br>

If you go for Hasselblad, and intend to use it a lot, spend a little more to get good CF lenses rather than the older C Compur shutter lenses. You may well be lucky and get one that goes for ever, but the CF with Prontor shutters will take more punishment and are still serviceable at official Hasselblad service centres, (as far as I know that remains the case - someone will update if anything has changed)</p>

<p>I have an SQ-A...<br>

Since you will probably find already many things about it all over the Net, I will just try and tell you a few things that I find noteworthy yet little discussed.<br>

The 80mm/2.8: I am very very disappointed by the minimum focusing distance, too large. Impossible to take portraits or close-ups without lenses or extension tubes with it.<br>

The film backs: I have only bought second hand, and I see they are very fragile. They have a thin plastic plate fixed in place by thin screws, and it is very easy to find cracks around these screws, and therefore light leaks.<br>

I like that I could find at a reasonable price a metered viewfinder. I am not always keen on having with me a separate light meter.<br>

Ciao,<br>

Marco</p>

<p>I agree with Kevin Parratt on sticking with 6x6 if thats what you want. But I am assuming that you want to take square pictures. If you intend to crop to a rectangle then most (but not all) bets are off. </p>

<p>With respect to brand choice you might want to consider the following. </p>

 

<ul>

<li>If you get the Bronica you can afford a much newer camera for the same price as an older 500CM</li>

<li>You can spend less on a Bronica the same age as a 500CM.</li>

<li>If you get the Bronica you will be able to get other things you might want faster because Bronica is much cheaper right across the system</li>

<li>You won't see a lot of difference between the images.</li>

<li>If you keep the kit a while then repairability is likely to become an issue faster with the Bronica. If you replace rather that repair ( likely to be cheaper but not without risk) you can ameliorate that risk to a large degree. </li>

<li>If you buy a Bronica people will come up to you and ask "Is that a Hasselblad?" If thats going to make you feel that you should have bought a Hasselblad, then you should probably buy one now. </li>

<li>If you buy a Hasselblad you are pretty sure that you can buy the best lenses you can get. With Bronica some people ( and I'm one of them) think its hard to tell the difference. But <em>nobody</em> puts forward a serious argument that Bronica lenses are better than Zeiss for Hasselblad.</li>

<li>If anything goes wrong then its a lot cheaper to replace a Bronica component (eg a back, lens, body, whatever) than it is a Hasselblad, where you might find an expensive repair is still cheaper than a replacement.</li>

<li>Do take a real pride in owning the best there is - or have you always wanted to use a Hasselblad? Nobody's ever always wanted to use a Bronica, even if they think its actually producing equivalent images. </li>

</ul>

<p>So which of these arguments resonates with you? </p>

<blockquote>

<p>I'd like to get another 6x6. I have old el-cheapo 6x6s and twin-reflex cameras but nothing one would call "serious" or "grown-up", if that's the way they want to put it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>What TLR's have you used?</p>

<p>There are some slightly misleading comments here about bronica lenses and filter sizes. Most, but not all Zenzanon lenses use 67mm filters. but the 50mm PS lens uses 77m, and the 40mm lens uses 95mm.<br>

Regarding the pointless comments about differences in lens quality, there is nothing to choose between them - they are both excellent.</p>

<p>Agreed, David.</p>

<p>But each one of my three GS1 bodies had some individual quirky defect (one of which I bought from KEH in EX condition), to which that I really needed to sell them all. And buy something else.</p>

<p>Read another way, there are three Bronica GS1s floating around eBay right now, with some individual quirky defect. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>What TLR's have you used?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's a good suggestion too, Mark. My friend who has over 100 cameras of all vintages and formats, including a couple of Hasselblads, a Linhof, a Rolleiflex and so on, told me the other day that he really doesn't like shooting with his Hasselblads - and much prefers to take out his Mamiya C330 TLR.</p>

<p>I'm convinced that too many MF beginners and trade-uppers buy Hasselblads only for the name. They might not suit their needs at all. David's list of questions above captures this aspect.</p>

<p>Ponder this: if Hasselblad's lenses were not Zeiss, but were say Takumar or Sekor or Zenzanon - i.e. if we took the cachet of the lenses out of the equation, and looked only at the bodies and system - would they have been so successful, and would they still be the go-to mental image of a medium format camera in most people's minds? I doubt they would. To me, the bodies are functionally rudimentary, and have all sorts of limitations and annoying quirks which other manufacturers solved or avoided; e.g. I mentioned Rollei above. Indeed I am curious why no-one had anything at all to say, good or bad, in response to the Rollei 6000-series suggestion.</p>

<p>I have used both systems professionally , so I can be dispassionate about their ability to produce top-level results.<br>

But,here's the thing : If you choose Bronica now,you will always wonder if you short-changed yourself in the camera department.<br>

Acquire a Blad, work with it for a while - you can always onsell it if you get sick of the quirks , and then replace it with a tinny old SQA/Ai.<br>

IMHO : the Hasselblad is a superb lens system, attached to a hugely average film body.<br>

The Bronicas will give you 90% of the on-film results, but no client will ever look at your camera and say "Hasselblad - you are a Pro ".</p>

Oh, Ray.

 

I love my Rollei 6008i. I just deleted all the Rollei stuff I wrote from my previous post because the OP seemed to be

set on the two other camera systems.

 

Hasselblads and their lenses are just so ubiquitous that it makes them more affordable than the Rollei. I mentioned the

used price of 30mm Hasselblad lenses in my previous post...; I have yet to see a used 30mm for the Rollei that did

not cost as much as a good used car(double to triple the cost of a Hasselblad Zeiss 30mm).

 

A buyer like the OP, or like myself, may have to be resigned to only a single lens. In which case then the option for a

TLR becomes more reasonable. Bringing in even more choices, effectively. That is to say, if you're only going to be

shooting with one lens, why do you need the SLR in the first place?

 

Just do an eBay search of "Rollei PQS lens"es to see what I mean.

<p>Well, I didn't suspect I'd get this many responses so soon. So first, thank you all for taking the time to comment. I'll try to answer some of the questions raised and comment also.<br>

I want a 6x6 so I can challenge myself with the square format, which I found I like but have little experience. A 6x7 will be a purchase in the near future.<br>

I feel more confident in KEH now. One reason I mentioned them is that they seemed to have a much larger inventory. I sent an email about verifying a camera before purchase but no response yet. So KEH underestimates their grade, right? Does anyone know if they can send images? Any more advice on evaluation?<br>

[to Craig] I figured the quality, the durability of a Hasselblad is better, but I'm not bothered by that. I've taken satisfying photographs with some flimsy cameras that I had to "bandage". I looked into the article and will read it in full. Thanks for the reference.<br>

Money is a concern; I don't want to rely on a system whose parts are very expensive. I don't commit to a single camera brand; I like to try different systems, formats, qualities, etc. For me, it keeps things fun. I think that a Bronica with a normal and wide angle lens (which I use a lot) and a couple of backs might be the good thing for me.<br>

[to Richard] Yes, I guess I could also buy one after the other. I don't have a better answer for that, I don't seem to find it a bother to buy-sell-buy. And I like the sound cameras make. People don't mind me; I don't act like a tourist. I did consider a Mamiya 6, but it isn't waist level, again because it's different. I admit though I recently tried a Mamiya 7 and it was pretty sweet. <br>

[to Evan] I didn't find the ETRS or a Hasselblad too heavy. I think the SQ-A is similar, isn’t it?<br>

[to David] No, it was never a desire of mine to use a Hasselblad nor a Bronica. Your point about durability is well taken. I'm finding that I want my "things" to last much longer. Still, I have some very old cameras that still work because I care for them. I'll consider it again.<br>

[to Mark and Ray] For TLR I have a Lubitel 166 (did not buy) and a Rollei T1 (I was lucky to find it and it was cute) and both work and I like them. I have also used a Mamiya C33 and I really liked it. Name isn't as important as being challenged by different makes. What is the difference b/w my TLRs and a new 6x6 for me? I could have a change of lens, backs, something newer.<br>

A difference between the B and H cameras is that one is mostly electronic while the other is mostly mechanical, right? Has anybody had issues with that?<br>

Thanks, D.</p>

<p>Do you mainly take square pictures? If so a Hassy is the way to go but if most of your work is rectangular then surely the advantage for a hiker lies with 6x4.5 which will give you TTL metering, a lighter body and lighter smaller lenses?</p>

<p>"I wouldn't recommend using a Bronnie handheld, there's just something about the mirror clunk that screams "clamp me down on a tripod - please!". And if you're looking to save weight then why not consider the 645 format?"<br>

I wouldn't recommend using any camera handheld including a Hasselblad. Regarding saving weight by using 645 - you need a prism with this format, which immediately increases the weight of the outfit. <br>

A 645 will not give you the same image quality as 6 x 6 if you enlarge the image from 645 to cover the 6 x 6 format.</p>

<p>I tried 645 and I thought it good, but I want to try and take more square frames. I can always use my 35mm for 3:2 images, usually print postcard size or 5x7 and sometimes 8x10. With a 6x6 I think I make a very good print at 16x16.<br>

What's your experience with printing 6x6?</p>

<p>Dionysios, I am very much a fan of square format and find 645 too close to the aspect ratio of 35mm for my taste. It's also very easy to shoot square and crop later in the darkroom if necessary. 6x6 will produce a very good quality 16x16 print.<br>

I now shoot slide film (while it's still available!) and virtually all my slides are square format, and although I occasionally crop a slide to 645, it has nowhere near the same impact as a 6x6 slide on the screen.</p>

 

Bought and used the Bronica SQ-Ai for many years. It is the poor man's Hassy. Hiked around the Grand Canyon with it when I was

young. These days I use the Mamiya 7. The Hassy is a better camera if money is not an issue.

 

You get more for your money with the Bronica. Just realize that Bronicas are no longer making the camera and repairs will be difficult.

It might be easier to buy two SQ-Ai bodies, 80mm, 50 or 65mm, waist level finder for the price of a 500C and 80mm.

 

Either camera will serve you well. Just invest in a good tripod!

<p>From about 1986-1997 I used Bronica SQa system, very heavy use. Then from 1997 to now I've been using Hasselblads, but I only used them heavy for about two years, then medium to pretty light service. I suggest buy which ever ones you can get in the best condition for the best price. PS 50-65-80-150 I've used and printed much from, all very good. The S series is very sharp but less contrasty, not as zippy overall. I always liked the old 105mm. The backs are the weakest part and they have a gazillion tiny screws that need to be checked on and maintained. Hasselblad is what it is. The newer ones like 501cm and 503cw have floating mirror so they don't go dark and cut off view with longer lenses, Zeiss lenses are in their own league, 50 fle, 100 and 180 are as good as it gets, wet prints from negs are scary. The backs are very good if you have clean ones and preferably matching number inserts. They have a history of jamming, it happens, it's annoying. I've hand held all of them plenty, no real problem, but if you want super critical, tripod and lock the mirrors. Just my 2 cents. </p>