TLR suggestions

I need some advice on TLRs. I use Hasselblads, but I'm interested in purchasing a used TLR for my son, who has expressed an interest in photography. It will be his first camera (smart boy ... going medium format!).

Anyway, I don't know much about TLRs. Jack squat. I have been looking at Mamiya, Yashica and Rolleiflex cameras. If it were for me, I'd go with a Rolleiflex with a 2.8 Zeiss planar. For him, I want a good "starter" camera with a simple waist lever finder, and no frills. A bult-in meter is not essential, because I want him to develop some proper technical discipline in the basics.

What would be a good TLR starter, with reasonably good optics and a reasonably decent price? BTW, if anyone has something like what I am looking for that is in excellent condition, please email me privately if you would like to give it a good home.

I now use a Mamiya RB67 but I started with a Mamiya C330s TLR. I was lucky to accumulate the TLR equipment from almost mint pieces over a whole year by going to pawn shops, camera shops.

The Mamiya 330s is fully manual and has the following lenses available: 55, 65, 80, 105, 135, 180, 250.

 

<p>

 

It is part of a family starting from the C33 to the 330s. The C330s was last in production in the early 90's and is no longer manufactured.

 

<p>

 

In my opinion, the best lenses are the 55mm, 105DS and the 180 Super

They are not in the category of the Hassleblad but their quality is such that they were favorite workhorses not too long ago among wedding photographers.

 

<p>

 

As much as possible try to get a lens hood for each lens as this reduces flare and provides best contrast.

 

<p>

 

It uses mamiya's unique rack focus and thus my transition to the beautiful RB67 was very easy.

Given your intended user, I think you are wise to rule out the Rollei stable. You don't say how old your son is, but youngsters do get put upon if they have 'ostentacious' possessions. Plus good examples are pricy.

 

<p>

 

YashicaMats (the pre-124 model) with the Yashinon lens would fit your needs. It's quite portable (for a TLR), which would probably score with your son. And the results are excellent for the money. Limitations: fixed lens, 120 film, and a pest to change film on a tripod.

 

<p>

 

The Mamiya C220 would be another option at a similar price. It's bigger and heavier than the 'Mat, but does offer near life-size close-ups as standard if you take care with parallax. It would also offer expansion options at a reasonable budget. Limitations: mainly bulk, but you have to manually cock the shutter. It does offer 220 capability.

 

<p>

 

Then there are the Minolta Autocords, the Seagulls, and the Lubitel, but I have no personal experience of these.

I believe the Yashicamat 124-G would be your best choice. I used one in high school and own one now. (I'm 37 and do portraits/weddings on the side. I use the 124-G in the studio and Nikons on location.)

 

<p>

 

Unlike earlier Yashicamats, it uses both 120 and 220 film, probably not a concern for a beginner. More important, it has a film crank instead of a knob. It was the last model they made and is more likely to be found in good condition than an older one. It has a built-in meter but all settings are manual. It has an 80mm 3.5 lens, non interchangable. Don't pay more than $300 for one in mint condition. You can find them for as little as $175. I swapped an old 8mm movie camera for mine.

 

<p>

 

If you are willing to spend more money, get a Mamiya C330, not the C220. The C330 cocks the shutter at the same time the film is transported and has a film advance crank, not a knob. The Mamiya cameras have interchangable lenses, which is a big plus if he sticks with it.

 

<p>

 

Craig Shearman/Baltimore

A nice Rolliecord would also be a good entry level camera and not too expensive. Maybe a model V in decent shape. Could cost $300+. I have had horrible luck with Yashica cameras! Won't use one for a door stop!

Why not start him with 35mm? If he can develop decent technique with a pentax 1000, he can go to larger format! As you well know MF is 3 times the cost of 35mm. With a pentax 1000 or its ilk, you can go new, not used. My two kids who expressed interest in photogaphy got new bottom of the line 35's. He will be disappointed if a used peice of equipment breaks! As far as I know they are both still working. I've had two disasters in the lst year buying used MF equipment(MF is more likely to have heavy pro use)! Will never buy anything used again!!!

Also, an old TTL might not be cool compared to his peer's Canon Rebel, etc.

I'm going to have to argue against Gene's points here. I started my son on a Konica P&S camera when he was 10, then gave him my Yashica Mat 124G last Christmas after I bought a Mamiya C330 system. He loves that Yashica Mat. We went to Yosemite last weekend, and all he could say was "I can't believe I have this camera," the whole time. Of course, we shoot landscapes only, and have a Canon EOS Elan II in a closet for quick shooting, but I can't remember the last time we used it. Oh yeah, my wife took it to Texas last summer to shoot our newborn nephew.

 

<p>

 

If I find a good deal on a 4x5 camera I might give my Crown Graphic to my son.

You don"t say how old your son is,but I'll assume he's old enough to learn to handle a 6x6 and not get frustrated, Does it matter that the camera has a Zeiss lense like Daddies?If so than you must provide him with at least a rolleiflex 2.8F with the planar,I'm sure the xenotar would be an anathema.Or perhaps junior would prefer an sl66 which with the 80mm planar would almost be like pop's? I don't suppose that junior has expressed why he wishes a med. format camera. Certainly it is not for the purposes of learning. A 35mm would be simply too plebian for the young man to work with I suppose. What with inexpensive camera bodies, lenses,filters and that kind of thing. Not to mention learning the process of seeing what the camera sees. A roll of 35mm provides for up to 36 relativly inexpensive mistakes and occasional miracles.I saved my money and bought my first camera 25 years ago, a Nikkormat, tough,used nikkor lenses available. It's Just in the last few years that the quality of my work justified moving to med. format.The single least important concept to me is not how fine the grain is but what idea is conveyed through the image.You have to first learn how to take pictures before the print is a concern. So many creativly bancrupt artists hide behind big prints with fine grain yet the photo conveys nothing.When the photograger has developed their "eye" then it is appropriate to pursue a finer print. Then one may find utter disatisfaction with a smaller negative. We read about it all the time within this digest;good photographers often have a sort of epiphany when seeing their work through a larger medium, but mostly only when the quality of their vision warranted the larger view.

Help your son purchase a used Nikon or Canon 35mm, He'll know which med. format system to buy some day, on his own.

A TLR is a great idea. I would suggest a Rolleicord or a Yashicamat 124-G and not more than say $250 spent on either. IMHO, Medium format has several advantages over 35mm as a learner format

 

<p>

 

1) I think it helps you learn composition better than 35mm, because of the waist level ground glass finder. Not all on this forum perhaps learnt this way, but in the old days, when people had 'box' cameras (baby brownies, I think they were called in the states) roll film and waist level finders taught many a young photographer, the basics of composition. I had one, and paying great attention to what was in the viewer screen before I clicked, far more than I do now with 'modern' 35mm gear.

 

<p>

 

2) If he is going to do his own B&W printing, then obviously 6x6 is less defect and frustration prone. Even if not, I would strongly suggest he get contact sheets of every roll of pictures he takes. Nothing's better as a review tool.

 

<p>

 

3) Its slower to handle than 35 mm and causes you to choose subject with a little more care, I think. Also the fixed waist-level position of the camera forces you to move around to get the best picture, perhaps more than a 35mm with a zoom.

 

<p>

 

4) Fewer shots per roll also dictate care and forethought. Also quicker feedback, as the roll finishes more quickly ;)

 

<p>

 

5) Peer pressure is the lousiest reason to select equipment; but there is no reason to be shy about getting the best tools you can afford.

 

<p>

 

Don't let him get a start in photography with equipmentitis uppermost in your considerations; you will do him a great disfavor in the way that he will think about this hobby in the future.

I bought a Mamiyaflex body with 80 lens in e-bay auction for $39 not in pristine condition of course, but if it takes decent pictures( I haven't received it yet) I'm going to let my 8 yr old son start taking pictures with it. Yes, medium format pictures are 3 time the expense of wallmart 35 but he'll probably take 3 times less pictures and if he uses a tripod and composes will have wonderful pictures. He took some picures of me and his mother and had a wonderful time. (I use a Mamiyaflex and C330F with 55, 80.135, and 180super lens.

Keith Wiebe

For low cost, but value for money spent, consider the Lubitel 166U. It has a non-interchangeable 75mm F/4.5 lens, takes both 120, and 220, film, comes with a msk which allows you to shoot either 6X6 without mask, or 6X4.5 with mask. It is no longer produced, but sold for $39.95 as little as 6 months ago, while still in production. Being a sought after semi-collectible it may cost more now. If your kid does not stay with photography, you have not lost much. If your kid is more serious about photography, and you have more money to spend, consider any of the Mamiya C-series cameras...the: C-2, C-3, C-22, C-33, C-220, and C-330. I have a C-330, and love it. They have interchangeable lenses, and are sharp. My C-330 can handle either 120, or 220, film. I think the C-220 does, too, while the others only take 120 film I think. The Lubitel is small, and light, and can fit in the pocket of a big winter coat I have. The Mamiyas are big, and heavy. So much for what I can recommend.

One interesting thing is that TLR's with "normal" lenses give two benefits:

 

1) Forced focal length gives more training for composition.

 

2) Users learn early on that "normal" lenses are not best used from eye level (i.e. from 35mm) but from waist level!