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TLR grad filters


alastairwatson

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Hello,

New member here. This is my first post after frequently visiting this place for years.

 

I'm looking to upgrade my Rolleiflex T to a 3.5f/2.8f and I am also looking to invest in some decent grad filters from Lee/Formatt.

 

I've been thinking that it will be easy to buy a bayonet filter adapter to work with the step up rings, composing & filter positioning with the top as lens as per usual and just twisting the whole thing off and placing on the taking lens. Will this work? Will the effect of the grad filter look the same on the taking lens as the viewing? Would it be better to buy the 2.8 version so the taking lens is the same diameter as the viewing lens?

 

Thanks

Alastair

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Enjoy the TLR for what it is, and don't try to make it do something it isn't designed to do, like polarizers, split grads and closeups. There are plenty of inexpensive SLRs and digital cameras which will to that with ease. It's hard enough to use one with a tripod, more than 4' tall anyway.
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Enjoy the TLR for what it is, and don't try to make it do something it isn't designed to do, like polarizers, split grads and closeups. There are plenty of inexpensive SLRs and digital cameras which will to that with ease. It's hard enough to use one with a tripod, more than 4' tall anyway.

 

Thanks for your advice Ed. I have enjoyed my tlr for what it is for 15 years. I love landscapes and I love tlr's so I want to use filters. I use digital in a professional capacity and I am well aware of the advantages by my heart is with 6x6. Are you able to answer the question?

Thanks again

Ali

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There are circular split grad filters, with the dividing line in the center. There are probably bayonet to screw thread adapters. The composition would be predictable, if not ideal, placing the horizon in the center. I've also seen polarizers with two filters, geared together, for the viewing and taking lenses. This goes back many years, when all I had was a Leica M2 and a used Rollei, and the only decent SLR was the original Nikon F.

 

I find that bracketed shots, combined into HDR images then tone-mapped do a better job conforming to an irregular horizon than a grad filter. A +/- 2 stop string of 3 gets the job done. That can be done with a TLR too, but it's a lot more expensive than with digital.

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Heliopan produces Polarizers with numbers on the rim. You do not have to mount the polarizer on the viewing lens. You can simply look trough the polarizer and turn it until you see what you like and read the number that is on top. Mount the polarizer onto the taking lens and turn until that number is on top again. As far as I know Heliopan produces no longer filters in Bay I (3.5/75 mm lens), so you will have to find a suitable adaptor ring first. Bay I - 46 mm should be available. /Ferdi.

 

Rollei and Yashica TLR Accessories

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You could mark the rim of an ordinary polarizing filter after determining the maximum effect on light reflected from a non-metallic surface. The reflected light is polarized parallel to the surface, and reaches a maximum at about 35 degrees of elevation (55 degrees angle of incidence), called "Brewster's Angle."

 

Brewster's angle - Wikipedia

 

I would use a white or silver marking pen, which can be removed with alcohol. Most filters can slip inside the mounting ring. Kaesemann filters are sealed at the edges and don't seem to slip.

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Be aware that a Rollei 3.5 F is Rollei Bayonet #2 and the 2.8 F is Rollei Bayonet #3 when you go looking for these. These larger sizes can be a bit harder to find as most of the Japanese TLRs were #1 bayonet. I have an ancient Spiratone Bay 2 adapter to series 6 filters and have used a polarizer with my Rollei 3.5 E. It isn't fast but it can work well.
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Thanks for all your replies regarding polarisers. Although, the question I'm asking is about grad filters, and the relationship between positioning on the viewing and taking lens. Would the effect appear the same on film as it looks through the viewfinder. Would it be the same with a smaller diameter lens such as the 3.5 or would I be better with the 2.8 as the lenses have a similar (if not the same) diameter.

Alastair

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Thinking laterally (and literally), would it not be possible to mount the camera sideways and place the grad across both lenses simultaneously? I realise this will only work with a horizontal split, and that you'll have to view the camera sideways, but it doesn't entail removing and replacing the filter mount along with the risk of shifting the filter in the process.
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A circular split-grad filter will have the division in the center, and its orientation is easily seen. If the viewfinder doesn't have a grid marking the center, then add one. I print special masks on transparency film on a laser printer. The difficulty using a sliding filter and holder are not worth the effort on a TLR.

 

Special attention was given to polarizers because you face the same technical problem using them on a TLR, and the direction of polarization is not easily seen

 

From my point of view, split-grad filters give results resembling a California smog line. To paraphrase Quigby, that doesn't mean I don't know how to use them.

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A polarising filter that covers both lenses will work regardless. A Cokin P, or something in the region of 72mm, should easily cover the taking and viewing lenses simultaneously. No need to swap it between lenses since the polarising angle will be the same.

 

"The difficulty using a sliding filter and holder are not worth the effort on a TLR" - Only if the horizon line is boringly dead centre of the image.

 

Having said that: I confess I haven't used grad filters for years. Post processing takes care of anything like that, and should be equally applicable to scanned film.

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Although, the question I'm asking is about grad filters, and the relationship between positioning on the viewing and taking lens. Would the effect appear the same on film as it looks through the viewfinder. Would it be the same with a smaller diameter lens such as the 3.5 or would I be better with the 2.8 as the lenses have a similar (if not the same) diameter.

The effect on film is the same as looking through the viewfinder. I do not understand your second question. Except for the very old Rolleiflexes viewing and taking lenses have the same apertures and the same bayonet sizes.

 

The diameter of the lens makes a difference when it comes to choosing a filter system like Lee. The grads for the 100 mm system have a wider transition zone than the grads for the 75 mm system. The 100 mm system aims mainly at larger image sizes (medium format) than the 75 mm system (35 mm, APS-C). Typically Lee grads come in two flavours: "Hard" and "Soft". What is hard in the 100 mm system equals soft in the 75 mm system. I have never used grads on my TLR; I also have a medium format SLR. I suppose the 100 mm system will be very unpractical on a TLR and a 75 mm system might be less unpractical. In that case be careful with "hard" filters. They will turn out to be "very hard" on medium format film.

 

Rollei made a lens shade in Bay III with a holder for (grad) filters at the front. Filters could be positioned up and down just like Lee or Cokin now. I have never seen one and do not know how thick filters were. Their size was rather small so I suppose they will have been around 1 mm thick rather than the present 1.5 or 2.0 mm filters. Finding such a lens shade is going to be difficult and you still have to find filters that fit.

 

Using a polariser on a TLR is not a problem, using grads is quite a hassle.

 

Best regards,

Ferdi.

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The effect on film is the same as looking through the viewfinder. I do not understand your second question. Except for the very old Rolleiflexes viewing and taking lenses have the same apertures and the same bayonet sizes.

 

The diameter of the lens makes a difference when it comes to choosing a filter system like Lee. The grads for the 100 mm system have a wider transition zone than the grads for the 75 mm system. The 100 mm system aims mainly at larger image sizes (medium format) than the 75 mm system (35 mm, APS-C). Typically Lee grads come in two flavours: "Hard" and "Soft". What is hard in the 100 mm system equals soft in the 75 mm system. I have never used grads on my TLR; I also have a medium format SLR. I suppose the 100 mm system will be very unpractical on a TLR and a 75 mm system might be less unpractical. In that case be careful with "hard" filters. They will turn out to be "very hard" on medium format film.

 

Rollei made a lens shade in Bay III with a holder for (grad) filters at the front. Filters could be positioned up and down just like Lee or Cokin now. I have never seen one and do not know how thick filters were. Their size was rather small so I suppose they will have been around 1 mm thick rather than the present 1.5 or 2.0 mm filters. Finding such a lens shade is going to be difficult and you still have to find filters that fit.

 

Using a polariser on a TLR is not a problem, using grads is quite a hassle.

 

Best regards,

Ferdi.

 

Thanks Ferdi,

Regarding my second question, I've read somewhere that the viewing lens on the 3.5f is actually 2.8, although I could be wrong (and I often am).

 

With the filter holders I'm afraid the 100mm might be my only choice as I can then use it on my digital. I had an 85mm filter system from Formatt Hitech on my Fuji x-e2 and my images were vignetting when using the Samyang 12mm so I feel I just need to go bigger.

 

You say the hard edge grads will be harder on medium format? I've had it in my head that the hard edge grad will appear softer edged on something like the Rollei's lens as it is quite small in diameter. A soft edge therefore will appear really soft as the grad width would almost cover the lens. Can you explain further?

Thanks again,

Alastair

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Alistair,

What I was trying to explain is this. The transition zone of a grad should be suitable for the frame size. Medium format is usually 60 mm high and it requires a wider transition zone than the 24 mm (or 36 mm) of 35 mm film. Lee's 75 mm system is aimed at 35 mm cameras and the transition zone corresponds with that frame size. Lee's 100 mm system is often used on medium format cameras. Anyway the transition zones are wider than those of the 75 mm system. In real life we tend to choose a filter system based in the diameter of the lens. Now that you are opting for the 100 mm system you are OK because the transition zones are suitable for MF. It is just that if

the small diameter of a 3.5/75 mm lens would cause you to opt for the 75 mm system, you should choose a soft grad to get the same transition zone as a hard grad in the 100 mm system. Large format photographers using lenses with small diameters can opt for the 75 mm system but that will have very narrow transition zones with respect to their frame size of 4 or 5 inch. /Ferdi.

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  • 4 months later...

I've been looking into this same issue (TLRs and GND filters) as very occasional use of a GND/square filter setup is the only reason I held onto an SLR (Hasselblad)

A weekend away, a beautiful empty beach at sunrise kind of thing.

 

But I'm not going to take a TLR and an SLR when I travel only for this situation, I'd much rather work around the limitations of the TLR.

 

I've been investigating the Cokin A filter system - it looks like it would fit. I can use a generic Bay 2 (or 3) step up ring to 39mm (or 43mm), then the Cokin Adapter Ring/Filter holder. It looks like this wouldn't inhibit the viewing lens too badly.

I say 'looks like' since I don't have one to try before I buy. Has anyone else used this approach? I think Cokin A filters are 67mm or thereabouts?

 

With using Graduated filters in systems where you aren't looking through the lens, I've always found it OK to just place it by eye, it's easy to see where the horizon is in the frame and close enough is good enough for me.

 

I have 100mm Lee filters currently but they are way too big for a Rolleiflex IMO and I wouldn't even attempt to use them. I've had a Lee 75RF system in the past but that too looked a little on the large side to me - the holder blocking the viewing lens too much.

 

Plan C is just to use Blu-tack, or not bother at all. I've flipped and flopped on the advantages of the SLR for this sort of photography but it's too wasteful to keep one just for this single type of use and as I mentioned before I wouldn't take a Hasselblad and a Rolleiflex travelling.

 

FWIW I too also thought that the soft edge transition on these filters is too soft to be useful and hard ones are better, especially with hard line transitions like seascapes.

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Be aware that the effect of a grad filter on the image is influenced by the relative aperture of the lens. A hard grad filter will look like a soft grad filter if the lens is at maximum aperture. As the lens is stopped down the gradation transition zone will appear to harden up and become more defined. To fully predict the effect of a grad filter it needs to be previewed at the shooting aperture. I'm not sure that's possible via the viewing lens of a Rolleiflex.
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Thanks, I didn't know that aperture had a bearing on the transition.

If this was a primary use maybe I'd reconsider the TLR as the tool, but it's just a once in a while thing for me.

I'm happy to work within the constraints of not seeing the film's view.

I never took a picture with a GND that I felt was that exciting to be honest, whatever the tool behind it, just a bit of fun.

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